quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, Britain has historically been more about social classes than racism. Racism exists, but it is not something those engaged in the class struggle are concerned about. Historically it has been lower class, middle class and upper class;

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Right, and one of the indispensable requirements of membership in the upper class was having a white mother and father.  Don't forget that you're talking about the culture that gave us the word "wog."

I'm sure that the U.K. will have a black PM one day, but I don't know that we'll live to see it.  My country and its electorate have made a lot of bad choices over the past eight years, but you have to hand it to us for doing something that I don't see any European nation repeating anytime soon.  You let me know when France elects a president with an Algerian surname.  I'll be retired or dead.

If it ever does happen in Europe, I bet it will be in Holland.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Right, and one of the indispensable requirements of membership in the upper class was having a white mother and father.  Don't forget that you're talking about the culture that gave us the word "wog."

I'm sure that the U.K. will have a black PM one day, but I don't know that we'll live to see it.  My country and its electorate have made a lot of bad choices over the past eight years, but you have to hand it to us for doing something that I don't see any European nation repeating anytime soon.  You let me know when France elects a president with an Algerian surname.  I'll be retired or dead.

If it ever does happen in Europe, I bet it will be in Holland.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Holland has a quite a liberal culture but in terms of minority achievement they lag a long long way behind Britain, as does every country in Europe.  As their politics' centre of gravity swings to the right, Holland is becoming an increasingly hostile environment for minorities in all sorts of subtle ways.  And traditionally the official name given to black Dutch people (whose familes have lived there for generations) has always been a way of marking them out as different.  I've had this explained to me by Dutch friends both black and white but my own Dutch is non-existent, so I can't recall the words and their translation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I also can't see a nasty caricature like Swaarts Peet, a sort of evil, Enid Blyton "Golliwog" who helps Sinter Klaas by punishing kids, gaining much hold on the British consciousness these days either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I can foresee a Dutch party putting up a black candidate, perhaps to show they are not racist as they plunge to the right - a sort of Ayaan Hirsi Ali-figure - but the population would be far less likely to elect them than the British would.

I agree with Trevor Phillips that Britain's largely white electorate would elect a black PM without much concern but realise that the brake on progress is actually party interior politics.  Several leading trades unions are led by black people, elected by the rank and file and there is a whole host of nationally prominent black figures, making it easy to conceive of one capturing the public imagination.

Perhaps Tulip's idea of electing a figure from another area of public life, like sport, is not so far-fetched?  Lots of actors go into politics, too...

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Fuck me, the Yanks finally get a non-white top man in a country that is heaving with non-whites, and they think they're leading the rest of the world into the coming enlightenment. Short memories, LaM.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

I could swear they were delivering tanning beds to Conservative Party HQ when I passed this morning on the bus. I wonder if David Cameron has been having ideas..

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
... And traditionally the official name given to black Dutch people (whose familes have lived there for generations) has always been a way of marking them out as different.  I've had this explained to me by Dutch friends both black and white but my own Dutch is non-existent, so I can't recall the words and their translation.

What name traditionally given to blacks as a way of marking them out? I have spent ten years of my life in Holland, speak the language fluently and can't imagine what you are talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You mean Zwarte Piet. Are your black Dutch friends South African because you have spelt his name the Afrikaans way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When I lived in Holland I used to live on a long inner city street of mainly black people (95% mabe) and at St Nicholas's Day, when St Nicholas walks through the streets with Zwarte Piet, the parents and children that lived on the street joined in the festivities and followed him through the streets. At first I had a reaction like you but when I mentiooned it to my black neighbours, they couldn't see the problem, it was tradition and fun.

quote:

: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

What you are forgetting is that Britain has been infected with political correctness from America which is language based...

I did notice that political correctness activists were primarily first language English speakers from South Africa and the Carribean...

... if Britain had as many immigrants per capita as Holland, I would imagine Britons would be getting a little worried too...

quote:

:ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Hollands lurch to the right as you imply, means that immigrants have to learn to speak Dutch because of the social problems caused by immigrants not integrating and then blaming the Dutch for being racist because they can't get a job because they can't speak fucking Dutch! Doh, if you can't speak the language, of course you aren't going to get a job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The irony is from what I have seen, the conservatives have more credible candidates from ethnic minorities than Labour.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
... And traditionally the official name given to black Dutch people (whose familes have lived there for generations) has always been a way of marking them out as different.  I've had this explained to me by Dutch friends both black and white but my own Dutch is non-existent, so I can't recall the words and their translation.

What name traditionally given to blacks as a way of marking them out? I have spent ten years of my life in Holland, speak the language fluently and can't imagine what you are talking about.

The terms in question are "autochtonous" meaning "Dutch" and "allotochtonous" meaning those those who are not really Dutch, used for everyone else - not just immigrants but also their descendants.  These are used in official forms and I question the need to differentiate in this way.  Britain does not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You mean Zwarte Piet. Are your black Dutch friends South African because you have spelt his name the Afrikaans way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

I've already explained that I don't speak Dutch, my spelling is therefore phonetic but thanks for correcting it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When I lived in Holland I used to live on a long inner city street of mainly black people (95% mabe) and at St Nicholas's Day, when St Nicholas walks through the streets with Zwarte Piet, the parents and children that lived on the street joined in the festivities and followed him through the streets. At first I had a reaction like you but when I mentiooned it to my black neighbours, they couldn't see the problem, it was tradition and fun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I wonder why in this utopia there was an inner-city area which was 95% black? 

Holland still shows the patronising and paternalistic attitudes which were challenged in the UK back in the 70's.  I could supply any number of anecdotes which would similarly demonstrate the "tradition and fun" side of sexism, anti-semitism, racism etc but they would all be based on false assumptions, as is yours above.  In short; just because my neighbour fails to object to your dodgy behaviour, don't assume I don't object.

My utopia cost me 350,000 euro. Inner cities here aren't necessarily delapidated slums like they are in Britain. In fact, the nearer the city the more sort after places are, particularly for the young. The neighbourhood went right into the centre of the city and was a mix of bought and rented housing. I wouldn't know who was buying and who was renting, you could't tell by the exteriors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

What you are forgetting is that Britain has been infected with political correctness from America which is language based...

I did notice that political correctness activists were primarily first language English speakers from South Africa and the Carribean...

... if Britain had as many immigrants per capita as Holland, I would imagine Britons would be getting a little worried too...

You're entitled to hold these opinions but I have met too many people, black and white, who were born and raised in Holland and who would reject them outright.  There might be a debate to be had on them, if one were feeling charitable but I'll refrain since my knowledge of "political correctness activists" is second only to my grasp of Dutch.

One of the leading activists trying to protect the Dutch language is a black professor who says, the language holds Dutch history and shouldn't be cleansed for people making cheap political points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

:ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Hollands lurch to the right as you imply, means that immigrants have to learn to speak Dutch because of the social problems caused by immigrants not integrating and then blaming the Dutch for being racist because they can't get a job because they can't speak fucking Dutch! Doh, if you can't speak the language, of course you aren't going to get a job.

There are whole hosts of people working in Holland who can't speak the language.  I know because I had a Dutch girlfriend who tried to get me to move out there.  Many Dutch companies actively recruit staff here in London, particularly in creative industries.  But we weren't talking about discrimination in employment but rather the likelihood of electing a black PM.

Let me be more specific, most want jobs that pay more than jobs you can do without knowledge of the language. I assume that is the case because the uitszendbureaus can't get enough workers for manual jobs, their windows were full of advertisem,ents when I was there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Anyone who knows the Netherlands knows that the climate on matters of race had begun to change even before Pym Fortyn's rise to popularity and that his murder only intensified matters.  I'd suggest you broaden your reference points and that you might benefit from putting aside your dated assumptions because you sound uncannily like a Belgian Vlaams Belang voter, MC.

No more than Britain. If you listened to Pym Fortyn and I wasn't a supporter, I didn't even have a vote, he was not against race, in fact his party had quite a number of black supporters, he was against more immigration because as he put it, Holland was full. Even in the area I lived which was 95% black, Fortyn's party got 80% of the vote.

Vlaams Belang, yeah, I know your type, 'Mr I'm right on Liberal' if someone questions your judgement or motive you accuse them of racism or some other ism.
 
 
Fed up of trying to format the damn thing.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/10/2008 9:36:01 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Right, and one of the indispensable requirements of membership in the upper class was having a white mother and father.  Don't forget that you're talking about the culture that gave us the word "wog."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, Britain has historically been more about social classes than racism. Racism exists, but it is not something those engaged in the class struggle are concerned about. Historically it has been lower class, middle class and upper class;

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I'm just relaying some ideas from people who live in places like you describe in central Amsterdam and in some cases have lived in London as well.  They don't turn "activist" about Zwart piet or whatever the fuck its called -- but they still have a view.  On that and on other parts of Dutch culture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I haven't accused you of racism, you old dear you; just arrogance.  I'm just relaying some ideas from people who live in places like you describe in central Amsterdam and in some cases have lived in London as well.  They don't turn "activist" about Zwart piet or whatever the fuck its called -- but they still have a view.  On that and on other parts of Dutch culture.

How can your views on race be worthwhile when you clearly know no-one from the groups most affected by it or really listen to them?  You live in a bubble, so you forget nothing and you learn nothing.