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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 10:16:09 AM

RCdc

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ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

Just a question..before Obama...I hardly ever saw a black person in politics on tv. Are there many interested in politics?
If so..then it is just a question of time not?

Maybe you are 'colourblind' in the sense that race has not been made so much of an issue before obama?

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 10:40:43 AM

JustDarkness

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Perhaps....mm..yes
Actually I find a politician a politician..no matter what colour...they never do what they promisse :P

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 10:45:09 AM

meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I didn't think I'd imagined it. The herb is strong over there but not that strong.

I don't live there so I'm not using it.

When Britain has a 20% none white population and they are more easy going than the Dutch are about it, I think there could be room for criticism.

Though I would agree to what you are implying, Holland is not a liberal countr'. People mistake its laws as being liberal, Holland is pragmatic and they believe in having evertything on the table where it can be monitored.

But then, Britain isn't a liberal country, it is centre right.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 10:46:19 AM

JustDarkness

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Just trying to compete with your arrogance, that's all.

As for Pym fortyn, as you will know he comes from Rotterdam and in one election there his party got 50% of the vote in a city of 51% none whites. Now I doubt that election went straight across racial lines.

Pim Fortuyn got for several reasons many votes. Indeed also for racial matters.
The goverment here pushed "positive" discrimination. Meaning females and foreigners will go first no matter what reason.
It felt actually a while that as a dutch person you were a foreigner in your own country.
They pushed that so far..that people voted against the parties that were leading the country. Pim Fortyun said..in the peoples words..what the people thought.
Then he got assasinated...but the parties learned to listen to the people again.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 10:57:33 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Just trying to compete with your arrogance, that's all.

As for Pym fortyn, as you will know he comes from Rotterdam and in one election there his party got 50% of the vote in a city of 51% none whites. Now I doubt that election went straight across racial lines.

Pim Fortuyn got for several reasons many votes. Indeed also for racial matters.
The goverment here pushed "positive" discrimination. Meaning females and foreigners will go first no matter what reason.
It felt actually a while that as a dutch person you were a foreigner in your own country.
They pushed that so far..that people voted against the parties that were leading the country. Pim Fortyun said..in the peoples words..what the people thought.
Then he got assasinated...but the parties learned to listen to the people again.

I know many of my black neighbours voted for him which surprised me but they felt the government wasn't doing them any favours either. I can't remember the intericacies of all the arguments now but he wasn't completely dividing people on racial lines, more nationals and immigrants, from what I remember.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:02:25 AM

JustDarkness

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True....he had even a coloured person in his ranks...his assistent..

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:04:56 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
As for Pym fortyn, as you will know he comes from Rotterdam and in one election there his party got 50% of the vote in a city of 51% none whites. Now I doubt that election went straight across racial lines.

Rotterdam is actually 51% white, not the other way round. Anyway, was this an election with a 100% turnout? Thought not.

What an election in NL featuring a dubious anti-Islamic candidate has to do with racial bias at the polls in the UK is beyond me.

On a broader slant, I always find the idea of speculating when a glass ceiling will crack to be rather pointless. On ascertaining its existence, anyone of integrity must insist it be dismantled at once, not decades from now.

That said, a week is a long time in politics, so who is to say that parties even need to change selection procedures? If there is a will to advance someone - anyone - it will happen.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:16:21 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
As for Pym fortyn, as you will know he comes from Rotterdam and in one election there his party got 50% of the vote in a city of 51% none whites. Now I doubt that election went straight across racial lines.

Rotterdam is actually 51% white, not the other way round. Anyway, was this an election with a 100% turnout? Thought not.

What an election in NL featuring a dubious anti-Islamic candidate has to do with racial bias at the polls in the UK is beyond me.

On a broader slant, I always find the idea of speculating when a glass ceiling will crack to be rather pointless. On ascertaining its existence, anyone of integrity must insist it be dismantled at once, not decades from now.

That said, a week is a long time in politics, so who is to say that parties even need to change selection procedures? If there is a will to advance someone - anyone - it will happen.

RL, Holland is a democracy, even the foul mouthed can say their piece. Also, Holland has proportional representaion so its easier for extremists to get a toe hold in Parliament. Wish it was so that Britain was as democratic as Holland, which it most certainly isn't. I have to admit, I never felt represented when I lived in Britain, always some middleclass twat parachuted in to represent people he didn't have a clue about. And I'm on the left.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/10/2008 11:19:07 AM >

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:18:19 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
When Britain has a 20% none white population and they are more easy going than the Dutch are about it, I think there could be room for criticism.

In fact, racist attitudes are more likely to be found in areas where there are very few black people, not those with more. London is 25% BME and while discrimination has not vanished, there is seldom any racial antagonism especially when you think of the immense opportunity for it. It's the middle englanders who never see a black face and are perhaps most ignorant about them that tend to have the problem.

Edit: London also has PR, hence the presence of a BNP arsewipe on the London Assembly.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 11/10/2008 11:24:29 AM >

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:24:53 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
When Britain has a 20% none white population and they are more easy going than the Dutch are about it, I think there could be room for criticism.

In fact, racist attitudes are more likely to be found in areas where there are very few black people, not those with more. London is 25% BME and while discrimination has not vanished, there is seldom any racial antagonism especially when you think of the immense opportunity for it. It's the middle englanders who never see a black face and are perhaps most ignorant about them that tend to have the problem.

When I lived in East Ham I was looking in a shop window on High Street North, minding my own business when a black guy whispered in my ear, 'Too fucking many Pakis round here.' I know east London inside out and its not a hot bed of racial harmony. In fact I found Indians, Pakistanis and blacks, disliked each other more than the whites.

I worked for the Probation Service so I know how the professionals used to like to paint London as 'racially harmonious' but that is just political bollocks. I worked with the youths off the estates and know how they felt.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/10/2008 11:25:46 AM >

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:25:38 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

NL featuring a dubious anti-Islamic candidate

he had enough votes to not be dubious...even when you don't agree with him.
Even those against him...are thankfull he woke the politicians.

ps. The largest group of people in prison here is of Islamic origin. That is also a reason why people vote for him.
Somes it is not prejudice..but fact...to be against a group.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/10/2008 11:26:58 AM >

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:44:04 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
When I lived in East Ham I was looking in a shop window on High Street North, minding my own business when a black guy whispered in my ear, 'Too fucking many Pakis round here.' I know east London inside out and its not a hot bed of racial harmony. In fact I found Indians, Pakistanis and blacks, disliked each other more than the whites.

I worked for the Probation Service so I know how the professionals used to like to paint London as 'racially harmonious' but that is just political bollocks. I worked with the youths off the estates and know how they felt.

I can recall meeting English people who vehemently hate Poles and other white immigrants but have many black friends. What does that signify? Not much. Many people who work in the social sphere lose sight of the woods for the trees. I wonder if that was your problem?

I grew up in London and can recount many unpleasant events but everyone knows, from old friends to old enemies, that this city has changed fundamentally in terms of race politics and that for all the work still to be done, so has the country. You can't accuse me of thinking everyone is racist one minute and being some sort of Pollyanna the next.

There was a time when John Barnes goal against Brazil was said not to count by racist England fans and no action was taken when they rained bananas onto the pitch in front of him. Times change and England fans will never do that to Theo Walcott.

Step one is believing you can change attitudes. Don't get stuck on step one.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:52:43 AM

meatcleaver

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So what is your point? Racism is still rife. Allocating someone to a group is a good way of promoting racism which is what activists and the social sphere does. Racism is in the mind and in attitudes, not in words and labels. Smart racists are subversive and aren't going to be caught out spouting racist nonsense and racists aren't the ones that point out social problems so solutions can be found, its the racists that make use of the social problems caused through none integration.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:53:13 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness
The largest group of people in prison here is of Islamic origin. That is also a reason why people vote for him.
Somes it is not prejudice..but fact...to be against a group.

Are you saying Islam advocates becoming a criminal? What do you mean by "Islamic origin"? Have you been licking your fingers and sticking them in the power socket again? If not, can I recommend that you do so?

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 11:53:29 AM

colouredin

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ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

In fact, racist attitudes are more likely to be found in areas where there are very few black people, not those with more. London is 25% BME and while discrimination has not vanished, there is seldom any racial antagonism especially when you think of the immense opportunity for it. It's the middle englanders who never see a black face and are perhaps most ignorant about them that tend to have the problem.

Edit: London also has PR, hence the presence of a BNP arsewipe on the London Assembly.

Personal expriance leads me to not agree with this, I come from a small mostly white (one black kid in school) area, the aforementioned black kid was one of the most popular in school and I had no awareness of racism until i moved to a city, cardiff actually, and then suddenly i started noticing it far more.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 12:02:34 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness
The largest group of people in prison here is of Islamic origin. That is also a reason why people vote for him.
Somes it is not prejudice..but fact...to be against a group.

Are you saying Islam advocates becoming a criminal? What do you mean by "Islamic origin"? Have you been licking your fingers and sticking them in the power socket again? If not, can I recommend that you do so?

He can correct me if I'm putting words into his mouth but I think he could be referring to the high% of Morrocan youths that get into trouble with the law. There used to be ganfgs of them in town that used to snort at white girls as they walked past in Rotterdam and call them pigs and whores and when the police would arrive they would make claims the police were racist. Several gangs were caught having abducted white girls and subjecting them to gang rape for several days. How do I know this? I lived there at the time and I couldn't let my daughter go anywhere by herself. And there was plenty of jobs at the time so they were unemployed because they wanted to be. It seemed they thought menial work was beneath them. That might be a generalisation but there were enough youths that seemed to be involved. Then, a couple of muslim youths were banned from school for calling the teacher a filthy white whore and threatening to rape her. This was not muslims per se, it was Morrocans. It doesn't take too many abductions to terrorise ordinary women and have their men folk demanding something should be done or they'll do it themselves.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/10/2008 12:03:45 PM >

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 12:10:05 PM

RealityLicks

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

So what is your point? Racism is still rife. Allocating someone to a group is a good way of promoting racism which is what activists and the social sphere does. Racism is in the mind and in attitudes, not in words and labels. Smart racists are subversive and aren't going to be caught out spouting racist nonsense and racists aren't the ones that point out social problems so solutions can be found, its the racists that make use of the social problems caused through none integration.

I don't agree that group identity promotes racism. When a suitable group identity is created to which everyone can belong, there'll be more unity. If you ask people to settle for second-class treatment within the main group, yeah OK, they'll form their own little enclaves, just to protect their sanity.

Panicking and fearing the new group (that you inadvertently helped create) will get no-one anywhere fast, neither will retreating into the place that membership of the main group awards you on the basis its better to be inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.

The point is, on a personal level lots more people get this than did say, 20 years ago and they'll judge a politician on his or her message not their colour, which simply wasn't the case years ago.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 12:13:33 PM

JustDarkness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness
The largest group of people in prison here is of Islamic origin. That is also a reason why people vote for him.
Somes it is not prejudice..but fact...to be against a group.

Are you saying Islam advocates becoming a criminal? What do you mean by "Islamic origin"? Have you been licking your fingers and sticking them in the power socket again? If not, can I recommend that you do so?

He can correct me if I'm putting words into his mouth but I think he could be referring to the high% of Morrocan youths that get into trouble with the law. There used to be ganfgs of them in town that used to snort at white girls as they walked past in Rotterdam and call them pigs and whores and when the police would arrive they would make claims the police were racist. Several gangs were caught having abducted white girls and subjecting them to gang rape for several days. How do I know this? I lived there at the time and I couldn't let my daughter go anywhere by herself. And there was plenty of jobs at the time so they were unemployed because they wanted to be. It seemed they thought menial work was beneath them. That might be a generalisation but there were enough youths that seemed to be involved. Then, a couple of muslim youths were banned from school for calling the teacher a filthy white whore and threatening to rape her. This was not muslims per se, it was Morrocans. It doesn't take too many abductions to terrorise ordinary women and have their men folk demanding something should be done or they'll do it themselves.

yes That is it. Although the morrocans...do use the Islam to approve of their behaviour.
At that time not even the police chiefs were allowed to talk about it in their reports..because it would look racistic.

quote:

Have you been licking your fingers and sticking them in the power socket again? If not, can I recommend that you do so?

and what is this remark about?

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/10/2008 12:14:54 PM >

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/10/2008 1:32:55 PM

NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

And if Collarme still exists when Britain gets a non-white PM, we should remember to revisit this thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Fuck me, the Yanks finally get a non-white top man in a country that is heaving with non-whites, and they think they're leading the rest of the world into the coming enlightenment. Short memories, LaM.....

Aye, well, there's the small matter of context.....we've had 40 years of a sizeable black contingent and I'm willing to bet that far greater strides have been made in that time in England than were made in 150 years of United States history.

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RE: Can Britian have a black PM? - 11/11/2008 2:24:45 PM

Lordandmaster

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I don't know the supposed connection between "wog" and "babu," and have to disagree that the word is about class rather than color.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The word 'wog' only supports Aneirins assertion on social classes. It originates and is an extension on 'babu'. (Not that the history isn't hard to find out so I won't go into it here) but is basically about class, rather than colour.

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