RE: Can Britian have a black PM?

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Lordandmaster -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/13/2008 7:31:17 AM)
OK, whatever. It's a derogatory word that refers to someone who is non-white. I think it matters very little whether it refers to "a relatively high Oriental servant" or "a relatively low Oriental servant." Anyway, for me this discussion has outlived its usefulness. If all the white Brits on Collarme want to maintain that there are no racial problems in the U.K. and non-whites have always been welcome in the upper class, I'll just let you guys carry on with that fantasy.

MadAxeman -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/13/2008 8:30:44 AM)
Nobody said there were no problems. We don't need your permission to fantasise.

Politesub53 -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/13/2008 10:20:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Anyway, for me this discussion has outlived its usefulness. If all the white Brits on Collarme want to maintain that there are no racial problems in the U.K. and non-whites have always been welcome in the upper class, I'll just let you guys carry on with that fantasy. I dont see anyone saying there are no racial problems here. The general feeling seems to be it is the class system that stops people getting ahead in the UK.

RCdc -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/13/2008 10:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster OK, whatever. It's a derogatory word that refers to someone who is non-white. I think it matters very little whether it refers to "a relatively high Oriental servant" or "a relatively low Oriental servant." Anyway, for me this discussion has outlived its usefulness. If all the white Brits on Collarme want to maintain that there are no racial problems in the U.K. and non-whites have always been welcome in the upper class, I'll just let you guys carry on with that fantasy. And there were derogetory words that refered to white servants too. The important thing to grasp was that the major issue was the class, then the race. Class has always been the biggest factor in the UK. Not ONE person stated that there were no racial issues here. I grew up in east london and suffered racial abuse and witnessed racial abuse. But it has always been way less than class abuse to the point were people were and still are to afraid too tell their peers what jobs their parents do because of the stigma. The fact remains that in the UK, abuse of class outweighs racism... and yes even to the extent of making a persons race an issue. If you are white and working class, you are 100% more likely to get be derided and looked down upon than if you are black and middle class. the.dark.

RealityLicks -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/13/2008 2:18:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Anyway, for me this discussion has outlived its usefulness. If all the white Brits on Collarme want to maintain that there are no racial problems in the U.K. and non-whites have always been welcome in the upper class, I'll just let you guys carry on with that fantasy. I agree on both points. It's a somewhat freakish take on things that I put down to an increasing desire to lead the victimhood stakes. To do that, there must be denial in the face of all academic and professional surveys about social attitudes. The glaring fact that there is no evidence supporting their view, only countless evidence to the contrary, is simply never faced up to. They know. It's a little offensive to the country at large that the staple creed of the right-wing extremist can be so glibly propounded as a commonly acknowledged truth in this country; you're right not to buy their line - it's way off and very much a minority view.

Politesub53 -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/13/2008 4:46:36 PM)
RL, two questions if I may. Firstly do you disagree with Trevor Phillips as well, since he states class and gender would also be an issue ? Secondly, surely you cant think all the UK posters on this thread are right wing, given their posting history ?

RealityLicks -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/13/2008 10:05:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 RL, two questions if I may. Firstly do you disagree with Trevor Phillips as well, since he states class and gender would also be an issue ? Secondly, surely you cant think all the UK posters on this thread are right wing, given their posting history ? Are you actually serious? I can't tell if this is meant as a joke so I will reply as if you are sincere in intent, although that is hard to believe. I guess what follows is futile, because you already know. Firstly, Trevor runs the equality watchdog (all equality issues) and therefore has to cover a wide beat, introducing ideas and awakening the public to many debates that may affect them. It is obvious that there are problems around gender and class here but I for one have never known someone to be pulled over while driving a flash new Merc because they were female or (shudder) working class. I have called job agencies to hire staff and been asked whether they should exclude black workers from applying, though. Similarly, I have never known a "Kick Class Bias Out of Football" campaign although some wally is sure to chime in and inform us that we have "imported it from the US" but I digress. Secondly, it is the philosophy only of the BNP and other rightwing extremists that being white and working class disadvantages an individual more than being black. The opposite is true and every Govt agency and university supports that incontrivertible and extensively-researched fact. If one holds such a blinkered, right wing view, that's that - one might think themself a liberal or socialist but on this issue, they are certainly not. Understand? It's exactly the same appeal to gut instinct over rational thought that got America a populist, war-mongering President and a trillion dollar bill. It's a dangerous world where people fit the facts to their gut instincts and I'd advise you to catch up on the former and forget the latter.

meatcleaver -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/14/2008 1:31:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks Secondly, it is the philosophy only of the BNP and other rightwing extremists that being white and working class disadvantages an individual more than being black. The opposite is true and every Govt agency and university supports that incontrivertible and extensively-researched fact. If one holds such a blinkered, right wing view, that's that - one might think themself a liberal or socialist but on this issue, they are certainly not. Understand? You aren't on the ball then Mister Socialworker. Only last year there was a government report staying white workingclass (more accurately underclass) were denied benefits and housing they were entitled to while immigrants and none whites weren't. This was mainly due to there not being enough resources to go round and those council and government workers allocated the resources to none whites instead of fairly because of fear of being accused of being racist. The report actually stated this form of discrimination was cultivating resentment against none whites and mainstream political parties in those areas. Actually, if you want to be a 'good' social worker and not just a 'right on' socialworker, I suggest you go to some of those areas in the north and you will see the problem for yourself. Forget your social work theory and go with an open mind and open eyes, you will see what a combination of polical neglect and middleclass social engineering has done in those areas. The reason why the BNP is becoming prominent in those areas is not because the people are inherently racist (or they aren't more racist than 'right on' white middleclass), it is because mainstream political parties stopped representing them long ago and only represented the immigrants so to get noticed, they have to vote extreme as a form of protest. I agree you will find more racist comments in such areas because the underclass tend to be less sophisticated than the middleclass who hide it. I remember when I worked in London, a probation officier accused a yoof of being racist, he turned round and said, you're the racist, I live amongst black people, you go back to your middleclass white surburbia away from black people. With some justification he was right and that shows another resentment, a resentment against the white middleclass who keep calling them racist so they subversively perform for them. Its a punk attitude. I witnessed it while I was in the probation service but the trained socialworkers were to blinded by the truth of their theories, they stopped reading people long ago. But we mustn't lose track of the fact that several prominent black people have accused the race relations board or whatever it is called now, of empire building and exaggerating problems. I have to admit, I witnessed such when I worked in London when senior probation officers wanted more resources, you know, change hard numbers into percentages. It is amzing how effective it is and how blind those allocating resources are because they have bought into the professional social vision. As Henri Poincare pointed out ‘Sociology is the science with the greatest number of methods and least results’ One shouldn't trust those people who appear to instinctively believe in social engineering, one should go and look at the problem for oneself.

RealityLicks -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/14/2008 10:58:34 AM)
Meat, I see you have been receiving special information from your magic, talking Eccles cake again. Usually it just demands cheese in gruff northern tones but every now and again it regales you with tales of why sometimes a working class hero is justified in being an old-fashioned, old school, racist wally. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You aren't on the ball then Mister Socialworker. Only last year there was a government report staying white workingclass (more accurately underclass) were denied benefits and housing they were entitled to while immigrants and none whites weren't. Did the Eccles cake tell you the location of the magic tree under which this report is hidden? This I want to see. And what on earth is a "none white"? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver This was mainly due to there not being enough resources to go round and those council and government workers allocated the resources to none whites instead of fairly because of fear of being accused of being racist. The report actually stated this form of discrimination was cultivating resentment against none whites and mainstream political parties in those areas. By whom exactly? At least resolve the narrative of this malicious BNP fairytale. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I suggest you go to some of those areas in the north and you will see the problem for yourself. Forget your social work theory and go with an open mind and open eyes, you will see what a combination of polical neglect and middleclass social engineering has done in those areas. I don't need to go the north to see poverty. The five poorest boroughs in the country are in inner London: Hackney, Haringey, Lambeth, Islington and Camden. Poorer but not good recruiting grounds for the BNP. Or Eccles cakes. quote: ORIGINAL:meatcleaver The reason why the BNP is becoming prominent in those areas is not because the people are inherently racist (or they aren't more racist than 'right on' white middleclass), it is because mainstream political parties stopped representing them long ago and only represented the immigrants so to get noticed, they have to vote extreme as a form of protest. Says the BNP. Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? The sort of logic only a wally or an Eccles cake wouldn't actually question. For them, it doesn't have to be true, just offer the listener the glory of victimhood and they'll perform like circus animals, just as they've been conditioned to do. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver But we mustn't lose track of the fact that several prominent black people have accused the race relations board or whatever it is called now, of empire building and exaggerating problems. Neither prominence nor celebrity can take the place of a properly researched argument. They do not speak for anyone but themselves. But since these people remain unnamed, I'll just assume your Eccles cake invented them. If not, name them. And - as is central to the whole debate - there is no "race relations board" in this country and hasn't been for around 20 years. Wake up. Just wake the fuck up. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver One shouldn't trust those people who appear to instinctively believe in social engineering, one should go and look at the problem for oneself. I've never studied sociology in my life. That was the provenance of an older set. Yours. I hope the obvious scars left by your time as a social worker heal but if you really want that to happen, I'd bin the Eccles cake and open a book or two.

meatcleaver -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/14/2008 11:04:42 AM)
RL. Read the government report from last year and there you will find the recipe for your Eccles cake. I used to live in one of your five poorest boroughs in London, within 20 minutes walk was a couple of the richest borough in the country. Even your poor Londoners can walk that far. There was jobs enough for everyone in London. If you were unemployed it was because you wanted to be or nicking cars or selling drugs was more profitable.

RealityLicks -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/14/2008 11:13:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver RL. Read the government report from last year and there you will find the recipe for your Eccles cake. I used to live in one of your fuive poorest booughs in London, within 20 minutes walk was a couple of the richest borough in the country. Even your poor Londoners can walk that far. Who was the report's chief author? Provide a link to it or give other proof of its existence. And yes, people assume that because Islington and Camden etc have wealthy enclaves that there is no poverty or deprivation there but they are wrong, as the news over the last two days shows. In London, grinding poverty exists cheek by jowl with real affluence, black alongside white, dullards beside the most creative. Its what gives this city a sense of "edge" that most of the provincial backwater capitals of Europe lack. It's why backwaters elect fascists while urban types tend not to. Name the report, if you would be so kind.

colouredin -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/14/2008 11:23:06 AM)
Wow cant people just accept that racisim exsists, and self regulation and fear of being accused of being racist exsists, and class disadvantages exsist? because urm they all do

meatcleaver -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/14/2008 11:34:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver RL. Read the government report from last year and there you will find the recipe for your Eccles cake. I used to live in one of your fuive poorest booughs in London, within 20 minutes walk was a couple of the richest borough in the country. Even your poor Londoners can walk that far. Who was the report's chief author? Provide a link to it or give other proof of its existence. And yes, people assume that because Islington and Camden etc have wealthy enclaves that there is no poverty or deprivation there but they are wrong, as the news over the last two days shows. In London, grinding poverty exists cheek by jowl with real affluence, black alongside white, dullards beside the most creative. Its what gives this city a sense of "edge" that most of the provincial backwater capitals of Europe lack. It's why backwaters elect fascists while urban types tend not to. Name the report, if you would be so kind. There are poor areas in London but unlike many of the old industrial towns in the north, good jobs with good salaries are within walking distance. Maybe you like London having an edge, you seem to so why are you complaining about the poverty that gives it the edge? Just google for jobs in London, there are plenty, there is no reason to sit in Hackney or Islington to wait for a job, they are there, down the road. I'll look for the report but its pretty poor that a Brit in Germany has heard of the report but so socially concerned person in London hasn't.

RealityLicks -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/16/2008 8:46:00 AM)
I'm guessing the so-called "Government report" turns out to have been an article in the Daily Heil? Happens, but not usually to you, Meat.

meatcleaver -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/16/2008 9:15:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks I'm guessing the so-called "Government report" turns out to have been an article in the Daily Heil? Happens, but not usually to you, Meat. So its OK being racist against Germans. I suppose they deserve it. Actually it was a Lord's report. When I worked in London I had plenty of black and Asian colleges earning the same money as me, 30,000 pounds in the early 90s which was good money at the time. The difference between them and black and Asian people that can't find work is that they were educated, wanted work and were willing to catch the tube to the neighbouring borough. The problem with many minorities stuck in the inner city is that they scorn a good education and blame racism for their lack of progress. Compare the Bangaldeshi community in London to the Indian community, you aren't telling me one suffers from racism and the other doesn't, yet the two could be on different planets when you compare their success in London. I accept cultural inertia is difficult to overcome but that is not racism. Many of the white underclass suffer from the same inertia and it is a problem of how to inject personal ambition for self development and create a sense of well being and worth.

RealityLicks -> RE: Can Britian have a black PM? (11/16/2008 2:28:28 PM)
You are beginning to bore me. Yes, there are many stories to be found in this hugely diverse country, including the successes of certain members of the more outgoing and business-oriented Indian ethnicities and castes. Trust me, not all Indians do well and not all Bangladeshis do badly and your odious comments don't make you appear as clever as you seem to imagine. Can you now finally substantiate the claims you made earlier in this thread, rather than trying to shift the conversation on to an area you suppose (wrongly) will bear fruit? I'll repeat the request one final time, if you can't meet it, say so; where is the government report?

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