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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 4:53:08 PM   
Sanity


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Certain people seem to think that it had ought to be off limits to discussion though... absolutely livid that I dared bring it up.

I think that it's fair game.

Heck of a coincidence, I say. Socialist comes to power, and the stock market starts to tank...


quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I was just trying to make a light-hearted joke.

You make a lot of good points, Sanity and I enjoy reading your posts. I am with you on a lot of issues. But for me, personally, my stance against Obama ended on election night.

You can source the current economic issues to Obama's presidency if you want. However, it's just a theory given that the market is such a complex, non-linear, and chaotic entity that predicting it and understanding it is on par with the weather. I don't agree with that theory and don't think it's a fair argument so I'm going to say something.


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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 4:55:54 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Certain people seem to think that it had ought to be off limits to discussion though... absolutely livid that I dared bring it up.

I think that it's fair game.

Heck of a coincidence, I say. Socialist comes to power, and the stock market starts to tank...


quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I was just trying to make a light-hearted joke.

You make a lot of good points, Sanity and I enjoy reading your posts. I am with you on a lot of issues. But for me, personally, my stance against Obama ended on election night.

You can source the current economic issues to Obama's presidency if you want. However, it's just a theory given that the market is such a complex, non-linear, and chaotic entity that predicting it and understanding it is on par with the weather. I don't agree with that theory and don't think it's a fair argument so I'm going to say something.



Well, you know everyone just needs to just shut up, convert, and drink the Kool-aid.

I would be disappointed if you suddenly became an Obama supporter because I would question the integrity of your own political values and viewpoints so Kudos to you.

I would buy that coincidence if we weren't already in the middle of stock market chaos.

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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 5:02:19 PM   
Sanity


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It had been up and down until recently, seemingly able to shake off nearly anything and rallying tremendously at any hint of something positive.

Not now though, and I do believe that this is just the leading edge of a very ugly storm.

I know people who have money, and I can plainly see that there is trouble ahead, and alot of it is due to, I'll politely refer to it as "uncertainty" about Obama's goals.

No one sees this as a time to invest or to take any kind of risks, not at all.





< Message edited by Sanity -- 11/10/2008 5:06:03 PM >


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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 5:19:13 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

It had been up and down until recently, seemingly able to shake off nearly anything and rallying tremendously at any hint of something positive.

Not now though, and I do believe that this is just the leading edge of a very ugly storm.

I know people who have money, and I can plainly see that there is trouble ahead, and alot of it is due to, I'll politely refer to it as "uncertainty" about Obama's goals.

No one sees this as a time to invest or to take any kind of risks, not at all.
 

That's a plausible and reasoned concern. Just going to have to see what happens and make the best of it.

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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 5:23:26 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I would buy that coincidence if we weren't already in the middle of stock market chaos.


SHHHHH!

(you're going to burst his bubble)

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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 5:29:16 PM   
Owner59


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When Obama puts real regulators in charge of overseeing banks,instead of bankers, then confidence will return to the market.Then average investors will start to put their money back in the market.

When Obama puts real regulators in charge of Wall Street,instead of Wall Street investors,then folks will have the confidence that their money won`t be gambled with(like Bush let happen)then money will flow back into the market.

Mr Obama will put people into place based on their qualifications and not on whether they were a frat buddy or big dollar contributor.

And that`s all he has to do.Nothing magical or stupendous.Just hire competent people,establish an environment where people feel protected and that`ll restore confidence in the market again.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 11/10/2008 5:30:55 PM >


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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 5:34:29 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Mr Obama will put people into place based on their qualifications and not on whether they were a frat buddy or big dollar contributor.


I hope that one turns to be a lot different than his promise to not take money from lobbyists.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/10/2008 5:36:27 PM >


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RE: The Obama Recession! - 11/10/2008 5:41:24 PM   
Sanity


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Or his pledge to accept only public funding for his campaign...


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RE: The Obama Recession! - 11/10/2008 5:43:42 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Unfortunately, at least in this country, the idea of the corporation as a citizen with social responsibility has given way to the idea that their sole purpose is to maximize profit.

Maximizing profit is a corporation's "social responsibility".  It never has been, never will be, and never should be otherwise.



It has been, should be, and in some cases still is.

Their primary resposibility is to make a profit.

The idea that it is their only responsibility and the idea of maximizing profits at the expense of any social responsibilty gained ground with the "greed is good" philosophy of the late '80's.

Which gave us Enron, Tyco, Worldcom and a number of other shining examples.




Corporation are only good at making money. Exploiting every opportunity it can to do so. The government is charged with keeping it on the leash. This administration has done a poor job of enforcement. Not to just slap them on the hand but stomp on that hand. And they were able to be lax because the American people have not kept their foot in governments ass.

Enron lobbied Congress hard to get regulations changed in their favor. Which allowed them to do what they did.

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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 7:04:59 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

It had been up and down until recently, seemingly able to shake off nearly anything and rallying tremendously at any hint of something positive.

Not now though, and I do believe that this is just the leading edge of a very ugly storm.

I know people who have money, and I can plainly see that there is trouble ahead, and alot of it is due to, I'll politely refer to it as "uncertainty" about Obama's goals.

No one sees this as a time to invest or to take any kind of risks, not at all.






...or in other words.....

...ARGH, THE SKY IS FALLING!

(Chicken Little, aka Sanity 2008)

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RE: The Obama Recession! - 11/10/2008 7:35:37 PM   
Sanity


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The stock market has been tanking ever since Obama was announced the winner.

The emperor has no clothes.

There's an elephant in the room.

Yeah. Attack the messenger.

So predictable.






< Message edited by Sanity -- 11/10/2008 7:40:00 PM >


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RE: The Obama Recession! - 11/10/2008 8:16:52 PM   
thishereboi


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LOL, your mean teasing him like that.

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RE: The 'what' Recession? - 11/10/2008 8:56:16 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I hope that one turns to be a lot different than his promise to not take money from lobbyists.

I take it then that you have evidence that he *did* take money from lobbyists?


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RE: The Obama Recession! - 11/10/2008 8:57:23 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Enron lobbied Congress hard to get regulations changed in their favor. Which allowed them to do what they did.


Shall I dabble in yet another thoughtcrime and point out that Enron's malfeasances took place during the Clinton administration?


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RE: The Obama Recession! - 11/10/2008 10:17:14 PM   
Owner59


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And they got away with it during the bush crime spree....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 11/10/2008 10:30:26 PM >


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RE: The Obama Recession! - 11/10/2008 10:29:30 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The stock market has been tanking ever since Obama was announced the winner.

The emperor has no clothes.

There's an elephant in the room.

Yeah. Attack the messenger.

So predictable.








Ummm.The market was going down,way down,way before the election.

This is the kind of amituerish analysis and vodoo, make believe economics that got us into this mess,this 700 billion plus dollar ,mess.

Pretending to be merely the messenger is a bit of a stretch,considering you know you`re talking bull shit.


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RE: The Obama Recession! - 11/11/2008 5:54:59 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

And they got away with it during the bush crime spree....

Enron filed for bankruptcy in November 2001.  Jeff Skilling, Andrew Fastow, and several other players were convicted and sent to prison, along with having to fork over millions to at least partially replenish the raided pension funds and otherwise make people whole.  Ken Lay likely would have been convicted except he had the good sense to die before the process was complete.

How exactly did the malefactors at Enron "get away" with it?

If anything, it was during the Bush years that they were held to account and brought to justice--along with Bernie Ebbers from WorldCom and all the incestuous accountant/consultant types at Arthur Andersen.


< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 11/11/2008 5:56:51 AM >


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RE: A New Day Dawns! Welcome President-Elect Obama! - 11/11/2008 12:11:36 PM   
Satyr6406


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Obama has no valid reason to have a certificate of live birth


I'm pretty certain he's alive.

And his mother was a U.S. citizen, so anywhere he was born, he's a U.S. citizen.

How the law works.


It might or might not make him a US citizen (My "gut" tells me you're right except for the fact that my ex wife's mother was a US citizen and my ex-wife was born in Germany [not in a military hospital, either. Her mother married a German] and my ex wife was NOT considered a citizen until she was "re-patriated" [whatever the hell that process is, I don't know]). Be that as it may; the standard for a US President is NOT US citizenship. The constitution specifically states that the President must be native-born. They MUST be born on US soil.

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RE: A New Day Dawns! Welcome President-Elect Obama! - 11/11/2008 12:38:19 PM   
SilverMark


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lol....could this get anymore far fetched? Sanity blames the stock market plunge on someone who has yet to take office? Naga is a forensic birth certificate expert?
Business is tanking for a lot of reasons and unfounded fear of Socialism isn't one of them. At this point in time if the markets go up, people are trying to recover the losses they have already suffered in the first collapse, so they sell and the market falls,as they tank and recover it is just the natural buying and selling and attempts to stave off a complete loss of assets. I am guilty as hell when it comes to selling stocks and then in turn buying as they tank and have been fairly active in doing so. It isn't such a bad way to make a little money in an otherwise horrible cycle, it just takes more diligence than normal.
Obama isn't the Anti-Christ,
In time, things will normalize,
If you are looking for a miracle....good luck!
And now back to your regularly scheduled hunt for conspiracies behind everything in politics and economics!

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RE: A New Day Dawns! Welcome President-Elect Obama! - 11/11/2008 1:32:15 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I'm pretty certain he's alive.

And his mother was a U.S. citizen, so anywhere he was born, he's a U.S. citizen.

How the law works.


Not exactly.

Article II §1 of the Constitution provides the following qualifications for the Office of President of the United States:
quote:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

However, neither the Constitution nor any subsequent act of Congress explicitly defines "natural born Citizen".  The common presumption and construction is a haphazard blending of citizenship by place of birth (jus solis) and citizenship by blood or lineage (jus sanguinis).

Interestingly enough, the first Supreme Court case to take a position on the matter was the infamous Dred Scott v. Sanford, (60 US 393) wherein the dissenting opinion emphasized jus solis over jus sanguinis.
quote:

The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, 'a natural-born citizen.' It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.

In United States v Wong Kim Ark (169 US 649), the Supreme Court reinforced the doctrine of jus solis by extending citizenship to persons born within US Jurisdiction of non-US citizens.

In Montana v Kennedy (366 US 308), the Supreme Court ruled against the principle of jus sanguinis, holding that a person born in 1906, whose mother was a native-born US citizen and father was a non-citizen, who was born overseas and then moved to the United States, did not hold US citizenship by birth. (While no subsequent ruling has invalidated this decision, many of the relevant laws have changed since the ruling, so the extent to which it still is binding precedent is uncertain)

However, just to make sure the waters are good and muddied, Article I §8 of the Constitution explicitly empowers Congress "to establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization"; arguably, this power extends to an explicit legal definition of "natural born", although to date Congress has declined to enact such a definition.

It is worth noting, also, that John McCain's status as a "natural born Citizen" was itself a matter of debate early in the election cycle, owing to the fact of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone, which did not meet even then the definition of territory under US Jurisdiction, even though both parents were unquestionably native-born citizens, and the circumstances of his birth in the Canal Zone was a consequence of his father's service in the United States Navy.

The only clear statement that can be made about who is and is not a "natural born Citizen" of the United States is that any challenge to a person's status tends to raise more questions than provide answers.


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