Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (Full Version)

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kdsub -> Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 1:18:21 PM)

I don’t know of the industry in general but I do know of Chrysler in the St Louis area. In 2005 Chrysler threatened to close its plant unless they received tax abatements. Even though the local municipalities were hurting for money at the time they gave in to Chrysler to the tune of millions.

The plant is considered the most modern and productive Chrysler has in the lower 48. As a reward Chrysler has decided this year to close the minivan plant laying off 3,700 workers.

Even this would be understandable considering the economic situation…BUT…  rather than discontinuing production entirely they are transferring the production to a plant in Canada.

Otherwise they are lying off American workers while transferring the work to Canada… then asking The United States for money.

If I had a say I would demand that all manufacturing be transferred back to the US employing US workers before I would give them a penny of our tax money.

Butch



popeye1250 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 1:24:57 PM)

Kd, I agree, we "have" to help out the auto industry as it accounts for 1 in 10 jobs in the country.
However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!



Termyn8or -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 1:27:46 PM)

As long as we keep buying the shit they will have our money. Money talks.

If you want real change speak with your pocket. Put five grand into the car you bought for twenty a few years ago rather than buying a new one for another twenty grand.

That is the sacrifice, one of them anyway. You can't have all them neat new features. Stick with what you just. Also as Eddie Murphy put it, you could still be riding buck naked on a zebra. We are way too spoiled. We must stop buying, I have, and I want for nothing, and I will not fuel their fire.

Oh, and the short answer to the question posed in the title, NO, the government should not be bailing anyone out.

T



philosophy -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 1:50:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Kd, I agree, we "have" to help out the auto industry as it accounts for 1 in 10 jobs in the country.
However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


(my italics)

...and will you still want Canadian oil at the special price you get by virtue of NAFTA?



kdsub -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:02:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Kd, I agree, we "have" to help out the auto industry as it accounts for 1 in 10 jobs in the country.
However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


(my italics)

...and will you still want Canadian oil at the special price you get by virtue of NAFTA?


Just so there is no misunderstanding…I have nothing against Canadian workers...but Chrysler is not asking Canada for aid.

This is an American company, laying off American workers, sending production all over the world…then expecting me to pay for it.

Butch



kittinSol -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:06:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
We are way too spoiled. We must stop buying, I have, and I want for nothing, and I will not fuel their fire.


This is so true. That's the silver lining of the current financial cloud: I believe it's going to bring about some serious rethinking of our consumerist society, as well as the downfall of the sharks that pray upon the idiot consumers, who will stop being idiotic, and who will realise that they have far more power than they thought: the power to withdraw from the game altogether.



philosophy -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:12:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Kd, I agree, we "have" to help out the auto industry as it accounts for 1 in 10 jobs in the country.
However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


(my italics)

...and will you still want Canadian oil at the special price you get by virtue of NAFTA?


Just so there is no misunderstanding…I have nothing against Canadian workers...but Chrysler is not asking Canada for aid.

This is an American company, laying off American workers, sending production all over the world…then expecting me to pay for it.

Butch


...oh i see your point. However, like it or not, it's a globalised world. A US government officially requiring a US company to destroy Canadian jobs will have consequences. Best to look at those too eh?



pahunkboy -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:25:27 PM)

We should bail out the workers.  Tool die machinists.   Keep them working.  But shift production to  to mag lev trains.

IMO the dudes that robbed the banks ie we the people, need to spend time in a real prison, not allenwood.

Yet- there is no punishment, in fact, golden parachutes happen.

But the grid has no interest in what the peons think.  I expect the same under Obama.

GM killed the EV 1.  They also are screwing workers who retired out of benefits that were already promised.

Let the Japanese manage GM.  I cant remember seeing a broke down japanese car.  both my car and my truck are Chevy/  

either way- congress is not the least but interested in what you or I think.  they will answer to the clients,  shareholder value.  not the PEOPLE who live in the districtg.

under supreme court shareholder value rulings,  humans are not of value.  humans are slave property, or liabilities....  each person even has a bill of laden sheet.   same thing a ship needs to come into port.    it denotes what is on the ship.  so does it apply to you?  yup..anyone who has a birth certificate.

if we were a tribe who governed ourselves, in any collcetive sense- then our say so would matter.    YOU dont matter.  Nor do I.  We are simply a market.   nothing more.   a horse is the same thing.  


to summarize; I dont want the government to fix any more problems.  Sara Palin is right on by considering state secession.    There are no state rights.  Secceed.  yeah.

fuck globaliztion.  send all the elite to  tim buc too, with no money, and no clothes and no possessions.   tell them if they make it back to the US, they will get free housing., food, etc.

thats when we stick them in Alcatraz







kdsub -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:34:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Kd, I agree, we "have" to help out the auto industry as it accounts for 1 in 10 jobs in the country.
However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


(my italics)

...and will you still want Canadian oil at the special price you get by virtue of NAFTA?


Just so there is no misunderstanding…I have nothing against Canadian workers...but Chrysler is not asking Canada for aid.

This is an American company, laying off American workers, sending production all over the world…then expecting me to pay for it.

Butch


...oh i see your point. However, like it or not, it's a globalised world. A US government officially requiring a US company to destroy Canadian jobs will have consequences. Best to look at those too eh?


No you are wrong...I'm not talking about destroying any jobs...Chrysler sent additional production to Canada at American workers expense. Fair is fair...what would be your opinion if Chrysler asked Canada for aid and you had to pay for it...Then transferred Canadian jobs to the US?



mrbob726 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:34:32 PM)

I just don't understand it - who's at fault for american auto industry going down? Everybody bitches about NAFTA, then out you go to buy the latest foreign automobile. Maybe buy American for a change ?
spelling edit



BlackPhx -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:35:13 PM)

I support requiring them to return jobs to the US if they are going to use our money to bail them out, HOWEVER, I would love to see a codicil on the loans; Improve Gas mileage. The technology is already there,  they build cars with much better gas mileage for overseas sales where it is required and to be competitive. Here, they build gas guzzlers and wonder why Americans are buying more and more Imports. One of Pontiacs best MPG cars the Vibe (28/33 with great cargo space) is BARELY advertised, but they constantly run ads for their sedans and sports cars that get far worse mileage (20/28), then they wonder why they are not getting the sales...sigh. How gullable and foolish do they want us to remain when gas bounces from 2.00 to 4.00 a gallon on a regular basis?

poenkitten



mrbob726 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:40:51 PM)

We have 2 american cars - our 2002 saturn gets 38.9 on the hiway, our '95 Chrysler  LeBaron gets over 32. Haven't had a lick of trouble with either one. most of my car problems were with imports before I wised up and bought US cars.



pahunkboy -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:48:09 PM)

Gosh my  98 lumina gets 21/22 mpg at best highway

the 91 S-10 is worse



SilverMark -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:51:22 PM)

Without re-working the UAW contracts the government cannot bail the industry out for long. You cannot pay out the benefits to the retirees at the rate they do and pay the workers that remain at the rates and benefits that are paid at present. If something is truly better than nothing then it shouldn't be that large of an issue. If collectively the union decides not to give concessions than the industry as we know it, will be gone.
G.M. acknowledged in its most recent annual report that from 1993 to 2007 it spent $103 billion “to fund legacy pensions and retiree health care — an average of about $7 billion a year — a dramatic competitive and cash-flow disadvantage.” During those 15 years, G.M. paid only $13 billion or so in shareholder dividends. The company has been sending far more money to its retirees than to its owners. As it sits, the death of GM will not be slow, the cash reserves are at about 9 months expenses and the valuation of the company is about 5.9 Billion dollars...A bailout with qualifications but, the union will have to cooperate or it is throwing good money after bad.



pahunkboy -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 2:56:39 PM)

I never bought a new car.    Even if I had the money.  I dont care where it was made.  made in the US could mean made in marianan iselands.   it is all comingled.

for that matter there isnt much I buy brand new. 


I liked the celebrity-  I had 2 of them and they were decent.



mrbob726 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 3:00:49 PM)

We buy new, take good care of them, and drive them till they fall apart - 



kittinSol -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 3:03:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

We buy new, take good care of them, and drive them till they fall apart - 


Like with husbands [8D] ?



mrbob726 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 3:07:24 PM)

Wouldn't know, kittin - never had a husband - but I've had a wife for about forever - and she's a keeper



philosophy -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 3:34:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


quote:

ORIGINAL:kdsub
No you are wrong...I'm not talking about destroying any jobs...


.........sighs.........

.....yes you are. Chrysler is a globalised company, creating jobs in more than one country. If, as a condition of US aid, they are required to shut down plants in other countries then that does destroy jobs in those countries. Now, you may argue that is ok...but don't try to treat me like an idiot who can't read....or are you arguing that jobs in countries outside the USA are not as important as jobs in the USA and so can be safely ignored?



thishereboi -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/11/2008 3:40:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

I just don't understand it - who's at fault for american auto industry going down? Everybody bitches about NAFTA, then out you go to buy the latest foreign automobile. Maybe buy American for a change ?
spelling edit



If I buy a Nissan that was built in TN, do you count that as an American? What about the Chrysler that was build in Canada?



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