RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (Full Version)

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variation30 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:08:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Shit ,I thought that was obvious...le me try again.A 15 y/o girl was shot dead at a Florida High School.....did you get it that time?


ok. so a 15 y/o girl was shto dead in a florida high school.

and...?



celticlord2112 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:09:42 AM)

quote:

No I don't care to add some relevance CL,all the relevance needed is there,for those that wish to see it.To pretend you are incapable of connecting the dots is disingenuous.Our children shoot other children,it is simple and it is disgusting...make of it what you wish.

No child in my house has ever done this, so let's be cautious with the "our children" bit.  More to the point, children doing violence at any level is disgusting, but extrapolating from that to a presumptive justification for limiting the right to keep and bear arms takes some rather tortuous leaps of logic.

When a child does harm to another, the first and best question to ask is "where are the parents?"  When a child fails to be able to navigate civilized society, the responsibility for that failure falls first and foremost on the child's parents.  In the case you so panderingly dragged into this topic, how did one child get access to a gun in the first place? (gun safety extends well beyond the firing range, and the liability for not practicing gun safety does as well).

What you see as indictment of firearms I see as an indictment of a society that refuses to hold parents accountable for the success or failure of the parental techniques.  If a child reaches high school believing it is acceptable to solve interpersonal conflicts with a gun, the child's parents--the primary teachers and inculcators of morals--have failed to get a basic message of civilization through to said child.

As tragic as the case is, it is not an indictment of guns or of gun ownership.



housesub4you -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:11:07 AM)

You can't add any because there is none.  It is easy to blame the weapon, what about the person doing the shooting?   


What about the parents, what about society, the gun just sits there, it could have been anything, a knife, a baseball bat, a tire iron, it really does not matter, blame them all if you don't have the courage to look at the reasons the person choose to pick them up and use them in the way they did



variation30 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:14:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
No I don't care to add some relevance CL,all the relevance needed is there,for those that wish to see it.To pretend you are incapable of connecting the dots is disingenuous.Our children shoot other children,it is simple and it is disgusting...make of it what you wish.


well first off..."Our children" did not shoot anyone. I don't have children so it's going to be a little difficult for you to use the collective pronoun in this instance. what you meant to say is that "A child shot another child, it is simple and disgusting."

as far as making of it what I wish...I think that someone being murdered is a bad thing. should I be going any further?

however, I think this is a good thing: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/10/robber_shot_dead_in_cleveland.html



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:17:00 AM)

And the means of expressing that anger in a fatal manner was apparently readily available.Yet no one seems to have a problem with that,as a matter of fact..a number of posters actually got their dander out of wack,simply because I had the temerity to post a simple factual statement.None could argue with the statement ,so they did a little switch and bait with silly fucking questions about banning blades or citing car accident deaths.Amazing to me just how many tragic deaths will be accepted at the alter of their gun rights...



variation30 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:17:32 AM)

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080828/NEWS/80828002

oh god I love these stories.



housesub4you -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:19:25 AM)

So they choose to use a gun because it was avaiable, so we should not allow knives in homes because they can be used to cause harm, no power tools, no sticks, no tree limbs, no rope

Why is it only the fault of the weapon of choice and not the person



variation30 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:20:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And the means of expressing that anger in a fatal manner was apparently readily available.Yet no one seems to have a problem with that,as a matter of fact..a number of posters actually got their dander out of wack,simply because I had the temerity to post a simple factual statement.None could argue with the statement ,so they did a little switch and bait with silly fucking questions about banning blades or citing car accident deaths.Amazing to me just how many tragic deaths will be accepted at the alter of their gun rights...



so it's the gun's fault because someone had a fatal manner of expressin anger? I have a means of readily expressing anger in a fatal manner, why haven't I used it?

and what is there to argue about. someone was shot. ok. now what? you haven't made a point.

what you are failing to grasp is that it's the individual who is responsible for this act, not the tool he used.



Archer -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:20:20 AM)

And how many crime victims are to be denied their right to effective self defense on your own alter?





celticlord2112 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:24:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And the means of expressing that anger in a fatal manner was apparently readily available.Yet no one seems to have a problem with that,as a matter of fact..a number of posters actually got their dander out of wack,simply because I had the temerity to post a simple factual statement.None could argue with the statement ,so they did a little switch and bait with silly fucking questions about banning blades or citing car accident deaths.Amazing to me just how many tragic deaths will be accepted at the alter of their gun rights...


You're right mike, I don't have a problem with it.  I don't have a problem with it because I happen to be of the opinion (yes, my OPINION) that expressing anger via violence is itself unacceptable--and is the actual problem, not the gun, and not even the shooting.

As for "lethal means of expressing that anger"--look around.  "Lethal means" are everywhere--all it takes is the desire to cause someone harm and a wee bit of creative thinking.  Take the gun away, "lethal means" still exist, and, because all we've done is remove one means and not addressed the problem of expressing anger via violence, we have done nothing.

The only problem that article and any other like it highlights is that too many parents are failing to raise their children into civilized human beings, that too many parents are not holding their children accountable for their deeds from the cradle forward, and that society is not holding parents accountable for their sloth in this regard.  That is the only problem to be derived from that article--a problem that focusing on guns and their presumed ills only exacerbates.



sirsholly -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:27:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And the means of expressing that anger in a fatal manner was apparently readily available.Yet no one seems to have a problem with that


i don't think anyone here is saying no one has a problem with a child getting his hands on a gun, Mike. As CelticLord said: where were the parents?

Guns in our house are locked away. Steak knives are not. Stabbing occur in schools more often than a shooting. Should we do away with all possibly dangerous items because one child may use it as a means of expressing his anger?



ModeratorEleven -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:36:11 AM)

Folks, please don't make this a thread about children or it'll get locked and gutted.

Thank you.

XI



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:39:10 AM)

Guns in our house are locked away....where are the parents...knives kill....guns are used to protect life and limb....All good all true,but not the whole truth.
Not all the guns are locked away apparently
Not all parents ,some of them gun owners ,are doing their jobs
Knives kill...yes they also slice bread what is the fucking point.Guns are much more effective weapos when the goal is to kill...and call for far less talent in achieving that aim
Why is it not germane to the conversation to bring up tragedy's,yet the knee jerk response is to cull the inter net for the "little old lady defends herself with a gun story".



celticlord2112 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:41:47 AM)

quote:

Why is it not germane to the conversation to bring up tragedy's,yet the knee jerk response is to cull the inter net for the "little old lady defends herself with a gun story".

Because you fail to show, or even attempt to articulate, how banning guns prevents the next such "tragedy".



housesub4you -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:43:05 AM)

And more guns are used for legal purpose then any other.

More people use guns to hunt then to kill other people, so why is it the guns fault.

If you take the guns away, are you so naive as to believe all murder will stop?  Then what take away the next weappon of choice?? 



sirsholly -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 11:59:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Guns in our house are locked away....where are the parents...knives kill....guns are used to protect life and limb....All good all true,but not the whole truth.
Not all the guns are locked away apparently
Not all parents ,some of them gun owners ,are doing their jobs
Knives kill...yes they also slice bread what is the fucking point.Guns are much more effective weapos when the goal is to kill...and call for far less talent in achieving that aim
Why is it not germane to the conversation to bring up tragedy's,yet the knee jerk response is to cull the inter net for the "little old lady defends herself with a gun story".


Mike..i appriciate your passion, but the bad guys are always going to have guns. Always. Ban away. They will still have them.

I am not a little old lady. I am a strong 6 ft and you bet i have a gun. My husband works odd hours and i have a very young child here to protect. If someone were to break in i am not, to borrow Christines sig line, going to pick up a rolling pin and hope for the best. He may have a gun. He may not. I am not going to bother to ask.

Yes, the knifes we own are used to slice bread, and the gun we own is going to protect us should the need arise.



Archer -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 12:04:19 PM)

Self defense is a legitimate use of a firearm. Banning them bans the MOST EFFECTIVE means of defending ourselves.
It returns us to the unequal footing of the biggest and strongest having more physical power than the smaller and weaker.
Firearms were and are sometimes called equalizers for a reason the holder of the gun has the same force available regardless of how big or small they are. Want to hold folks civilly and or criminally liable for the misuse of a gun I'm there with you. Want to ban them, sorry you lose me.




slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 12:12:29 PM)

The argument only moves to banning,at the behest of the gun crowd.Any talk of legislation aimed at reducing the numbers of guns or limiting the types of guns....morphs immediately into a gun banning conversation.It is what works best for the gun crowd,make the discussion fit your model and shout down all dissent....Have at it,keep it up.but realise American politics is predicated on a reactionary electorate.Keep being obstructionist's ,you play right into the hands of those who would like to see the gun industry put out of business.God forbid the gun lobby works with those that have legitimate concerns about the #'s of guns and whose hands those guns are finding their way into.Lets try to remember all guns start out life as legal in this country



CruelDesires -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 12:18:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I can also purchase a thousand rounds of ammo for it for about 30 bucks.


Got a link? I need some more ammo. [:D]

C-D



MadRabbit -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 12:19:41 PM)

People who are too far to the right or the left on this issue make my head spin.

First, given the huge imbalance that exists between the Armed Forces and an American militia, short of owning tanks, bombers, and SUVs, the idea that we need automatic rifles to protect ourselves from the government if they so happened to turn on us is the equivalent of paying one dollar towards the national debt.

Second, given the statistics of violent crimes commited with illegial arms, the relative easy it is for people with the right connections to get an illegial arm, the long response time regarding police answering 911 calls, and the fact that banning narcotics didn't make narcotics go away, the idea that banning all guns will improve things rather than make them worse is silly.

The end result will be the people who were going to do bad things with guns are going to still have guns and the people who were responsibly going to use them for home defense and hunting won't have anything, leaving them to hope they don't get shot in the 10 minutes it takes the police to arrive in response to a burglery call.



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