RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory

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slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 4:48:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Out of individuals or governments, which group has the most checks and balances on their behaviour? Individuals. The checks and balances are called neighbors. Governments have only their own internal inefficiencies and the capacity of the citizenry to oppose the government to keep their behavior in check. And of your own free will you have moved your position to one of complete idiocy.Neighbors may now enter into an arms race with the guy that won't curb his dog.Do you read this stuff or just blindly type away. Earlier I was asked wh I couldn't engage in a reasonable conversation ,defending my views on this issue.....thank you for providing evidence ,I could have never dreamed up.

MadRabbit -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:03:58 PM)
FR Let's hope my next door neighbor doesnt' get drunk one night and spills Anthrax in the future of the radical right.

Crush -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:18:26 PM)
Consider what happened in New Orleans when the government confiscated people's weapons, leaving them defenseless against looters and other miscreants. The Founders of the US felt that individuals had the right to protect themselves, even from a neighbor who gets drunk and decides to rape the babysitter next door or your daughter. Much more likely a threat than anthrax. I've had good neighbors and neighbors that have caused me to go out and upgrade my locks and buy security systems. They moved in AFTER we had been in our neighborhood for years.

Outlaw85 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:24:09 PM)
quote: I draw the line at handguns, shotguns, and semi-automatic rifles. As long as we still consider those to be "fire-arms" then the right to bear arms is maintained in this country. I'm perfectly happy with upholding that right and think it's a good idea to provide these basic weapons of defense. I don't agree that it should be the right to bear ALL arms. That's just my opinion. People are entitled to theirs. I welcome them to it and have said so a couple of times (though I think it got overlooked in the zealous desire to debate with me). I think you should have made that clearer at the beginning because I agree with you. There's no reason for any of us to have a .50 calibre machine gun. Even assault rifles wich I'm in support of having, don't have to be automatic, usually you fire simi auto in a fight anyways. course gun control is a joke for the most part anyways, it's a fact you can go to cabelas.com order a black powder revolver of the same makes and models as those used by jesse james or john wesley hardin, plenty deadly, if requiring a lil more skill to use, and they'll deliver them to your door with a pound of gunpowder, as many rounds of ammunition as you like, without verifying your age, doing a background check or even so much as making you sign for the package, they'll just leave it in a box with big red letters saying explosives right on your front door. and if you consider that some of those guns, like the 1858 remington can be reloaded just as fast as a modern gun, and are just as deady in trained hands, you realize how futile gun control really is. Course the funny thing is you never hear about criminals using those kinds of guns because they can easily just steal a modern hand gun.

Outlaw85 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:34:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Out of individuals or governments, which group has the most checks and balances on their behaviour? Individuals. The checks and balances are called neighbors. Governments have only their own internal inefficiencies and the capacity of the citizenry to oppose the government to keep their behavior in check. And of your own free will you have moved your position to one of complete idiocy.Neighbors may now enter into an arms race with the guy that won't curb his dog.Do you read this stuff or just blindly type away. Earlier I was asked wh I couldn't engage in a reasonable conversation ,defending my views on this issue.....thank you for providing evidence ,I could have never dreamed up. blasting someone's argument doesn't constitute a rebuttle amigo. it's a fact. when neighbors looked out for each other and kept each other in check, we didn't have gangs running the streets. a good example is, Jesse James. Think what you want of him, I kinda like him personally, however. The bank robbery he failed was the one where the citizens of the town banded together and put up a resistance and stopped him. In towns that didn't he sometimes outright terrorized them. and when he was a gurilla, well lets not even get into those details. There used to be a time in this country when you couldn't mug an old lady because the whole damn town would be out with torches looking for you. As we've become more and more self centred and taken less and less responsibility, crime has become more and more rampant. And the more the government tries to restrict things, the more organised crime becomes more powerful. course to be fair, there also used to be lynch mobs. But you can't go to extremes in any direction, there has to be a balance for everything. so ya know, I voted for Obama I think Obama will do great for diplomatic relations... absolutely no worries about the government trying to take my right to bear arms over here. As I said, they can't, they're deadlocked, it's a non-issue unless they want to instigate a second civil war.

slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:39:46 PM)
And now another proponet of "unfettered"gun ownership supports his position by citing a Jesse James bank robbery(Northfield I think,hope that helps)A need to rebut presupposes the other guy is actually making a valid case that needs rebutting....sorry ,but in my view,niether you nor CL meet that criteria.

kittinSol -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:44:53 PM)
Any idea where I can get a nuclear submarine :-) ? ~ nuclearsub

nightphoenix -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:46:42 PM)
gle quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Any idea where I can get a nuclear submarine :-) ? ~ nuclearsub I probably could dig up something if you have the funds for it. ;)

slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:47:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol with you Any idea where I can get a nuclear submarine :-) ? ~ nuclearsub Well actually ,I could help you with that....but I get to go under with you...do we have a deal?

Outlaw85 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:47:36 PM)
yes, northfield minnesota well then lets just use some personal experience. In my life time I have been shot at, stabbed at, pistol whipped right in front of a gas station where the police didn't bother to even get the video of it, I had my arm broken backwards in my own apartment building, and no I couldn't afford to move anywhere else. I lived in places where the gang actually controlled the area. the police only showed up in the form of the swat team, ther was blood and urine all along the walls, doors were kicked in regularly and people thrown out of second story windows, and to call the police meant that the friends of those who got arrested would find out who called, which they would, and they'd kick your door in, drag you out in the middle of hte night and then put your mouth on the curb and stomp on the back of your head. I was unarmed and couldn't afford a firearm. therefore I was a victem. Now I'm armed. Now if it happens again, pricks are going to die. MY life, MY property, is INFINATELY more valuable than the life of those who threaten it. And if the police try to arrest me for justifiably defending myself which they probabally wont, but if they did, then they can die too, and their familys can fucking starve for all I care. guns are here, guns are going to stay, and there is nothing you can do about it. You can either arm yourself and defend yourself, or you can be the victem, or you can have lots of money and protect yourself by staying sheltered in the middle or upper class areas, while they last.

kittinSol -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 5:54:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol with you Any idea where I can get a nuclear submarine :-) ? ~ nuclearsub Well actually ,I could help you with that....but I get to go under with you...do we have a deal? [:)]

MadRabbit -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 7:48:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Outlaw85 quote: I draw the line at handguns, shotguns, and semi-automatic rifles. As long as we still consider those to be "fire-arms" then the right to bear arms is maintained in this country. I'm perfectly happy with upholding that right and think it's a good idea to provide these basic weapons of defense. I don't agree that it should be the right to bear ALL arms. That's just my opinion. People are entitled to theirs. I welcome them to it and have said so a couple of times (though I think it got overlooked in the zealous desire to debate with me). I think you should have made that clearer at the beginning because I agree with you. If you reread my earlier posts, I did. My viewpoint has gotten distorted because I have been arguing with people who are farther to the right on the issue than I am. I'm in the middle on this one and I would be arguing for the right to bare these arms if it had been someone to the left responding to my posts.

BamaD -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 8:05:08 PM)
Bad guys don't just use cap and ball guns, not because it is easier to steal modern guns, but because they don't understand the older ones and because be an ignorant point pull the trigger and hope type, you have to know what you are doing

scarlethiney -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 8:18:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub erin, I think what she's trying to say (and hopefully she doesn't mind if I try to interpret for her) is that using those automatic and semi-automatic weapons -- that were originally invented for warfare -- are a bit of overkill (no pun intended...really!) for hunting deer. To me, it's the equivalent of shooting deer from your pick-up truck, using a salt lick, etc. -- both of which have been banned, if I'm not mistaken. For many people who hunt (I work with a bunch of them), the thrill of the hunt is as gratifying as the kill itself. It's truly man vs. nature, on a more even keel. I hope that makes sense. quote: scarlethiney You hunt with an assault weapon?????? What in the world are you hunting?? I'm going to apologize now mistoferin in case I offend you it's not my intention. If your so interested in hunting why not just use a bow? What skill does it take to point an automatic weapon at an animal and pull the trigger? Sorry I don't get it. I agree with SilverMark why would anyone need an assault weapon? scarlet I will take both of these at once. It is obvious that your reactions are to the word "assault" weapon without having any real understanding of what that means. ONE of the guns that I use for hunting is an SKS, which is basically the same gun as an AK-47 (Wooooooo). It is commonly referred to by those with little understanding of guns as an assault weapon. It fires one round at a time. I have not ever needed to shoot a second round while hunting yet...but that is most likely because I don't take a shot unless I'm sure it's a kill shot. The appropriate caliber round for that weapon is a 7.62x39mm cartridge. That is approx. equivalent to a 30-30.....or in other words....your grandfather's single shot. Certainly not "overkill" for an animal that ranges from 200 to 300 lbs. It is a very accurate, flat shooting gun. I also have a 30-30 which I use for hunting. My 30-30 is worth about a grand and the ammo is pricey. It's a beautiful gun and I worry about it's appearance and condition as it is something I would like to pass on to one of my boys one day. My SKS on the other hand, cost me about 150 bucks. It's not a pretty gun and I really don't worry about scratching it in the woods or being out with it in the rain and snow. I can also purchase a thousand rounds of ammo for it for about 30 bucks. Do you see why one may be the weapon of choice on certain days? Now....to clarify something else. I am an AVID hunter who takes my hunting VERY seriously. I'm not out there hunting horns....I'm hunting food. I'm hunting food because I feel that it's my responsibility to help control the population of the animals. I do my part year round, in freezing weather, in 3 feet of snow, in blazing summer heat....to take care of the deer. Hunting is also a necessary part of that process. I'm hunting food because I think that it is unbelievably hypocritcal to be against hunting and also be a carnivore who simply pays the "hitman" at the grocery store to take care of all of the dirty work so I don't have to get blood on my hands and feel guilty for eating my steak. I appreciate every bite of meat that goes into my mouth because I FULLY understand what it takes to get it there. I use every single part of that animal that I can including the hides, which I tan myself with the animal's brain and the tallow that I render. What I can't use I cart back into the woods so that other animals can survive from the nourishment the carcass will provide. Trust me, I take this very seriously. It's has nothing to do with the "thrill of the hunt" for me. It is an absolutely necessary and spiritual process in my world. I take great offense at anyone who suggests it is anything less or that I approach it with anything less than the utmost of integrity and the knowledge and experience of the most effective and humane method. So please, if you don't have a good understanding of this particular subject...please don't be so fast to criticize and call foul. Erin I did not see this post before posting my last. It was never my intention as I stated originally to offend you or suggest anything that would be offensive. Just as seriously as you feel about your right to have and use guns I just as seriously feel the need to have more control over their use. I do take issue with the rabid defense of guns and really don't understand why it can't be a calmly stated defense with out all the posturing and insults. But hey it's the forums and bullying behavior by some is a tradition. This is a defense much like all the other "hot" topics .... that one side will never agree with the other. Again I don't have a problem with your rights .Do I understand why you enjoy owning gun(s) for hunting yes, but for any other reason honestly no. I am impressed with your use of all of the animal and with your ethics with regard to why you hunt. My son does the same the only difference is he bow hunts. He also owns several guns some of the same you mentioned. Thanks for clarifying. I can see its something you feel very strongly about. scarlet

Outlaw85 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 8:18:05 PM)
there's a kind of art to ball and cappers. the colts are pretty instinctive. the balance is so that it's pretty easy to point and it isn't too hard to site them either. Getting the most accuracy out of them depends on other variables though, more gunpowder means more stopping powder but doesn't always mean more accuracy, course how tight the wedge is, cause the ball has to jump from the cylinder to the barrel, just a lot more to it that takes some experimenting but once you get it down, they're scary accurate and natural. It's no wonder they're still in production and popular a hundred 150 years after their models came out. An interesting thought.... the famous colt 1911 is almost 100 years old.

scarlethiney -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 8:34:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: scarlethiney I am opposed to just any one owning a gun. I was a witness to a violent crime. In high school two young men who had argued earlier in the day both attended a party where one walked up and shot the other not three feet away from myself and a group of friends. It was horrific. Still is. I realize this is nothing compared to any one who has been in military but it certainly affected me. And no this kid didn't own this gun it was his fathers and accessible to him. He also went hunting with his father and brothers. He knew how to use a gun. He wasn't any one any of us ever thought would have used a gun in this way. He was a stupid kid who let his emotions get the best of him and in the process ruined more than his life. Perhaps Erin I would just like to see more control in place, or more education. And yes my feelings are coloured by this event. scarlet Well now I can at least understand where you are coming from. It's honest and makes more sense than coming in here to debate a topic that you quite obviously have little understanding of. But you see scarlet, while I am sorry that you had such an experience, I can not view it as a justification to impose any further restriction or control. For some reason people just get irrational when the word "gun" comes into play. Would it have been any less horrific if that boy would have stabbed that other boy....or run him over with a car? Would you be rallying for support of greater education on the use of cars or knives today? What if he had beat the kids head in with a hammer....certainly that would be considered horrific. Would you be pushing to license all hammer owners and make them take classes? If someone wants to harm someone they will indeed find a way. Seriously, I'm not trying to be sarcastic. The fact that the kid did such a thing just plain sucks. But you can't hold the rest of the free world accountable for it. I don't doubt your sincerity and I appreciate your perspective. I just don't agree with it. Yes it's true it could have been any other weapon but it wasn't. Please tell me what you find objectionable about restriction? I really don't think I'm trying to punish anyone erin and I'm sorry it seems that way. Yes I do agree if someone wants to harm another they will find a way. I'd just like to see it be more difficult for them to do just that. scarlet

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 8:35:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Out of individuals or governments, which group has the most checks and balances on their behaviour? Individuals. The checks and balances are called neighbors. Governments have only their own internal inefficiencies and the capacity of the citizenry to oppose the government to keep their behavior in check. And of your own free will you have moved your position to one of complete idiocy.Neighbors may now enter into an arms race with the guy that won't curb his dog.Do you read this stuff or just blindly type away. Earlier I was asked wh I couldn't engage in a reasonable conversation ,defending my views on this issue.....thank you for providing evidence ,I could have never dreamed up. I do not mean to pick on you, Mike, but I think what you have written here shows clearly the crux of the differences in the thought processes. I believe that this country was built on the trust that people can be self-governing with limited interference from a centralized government. You do not. I see these types of arguments all the time, wherein the extreme examples such as being in an arms race over curbing a dog is considered valid. Reasonable restrictions need to ber applied as society grows and safety issues warrant. But we need to police ourselves and trust that people are, for the most part, reasonable. I believe they are and we do not need such excessive regulation. You do not and are in favor of having as much as possible regulated. So long as it fits your comfort level, that is.

Huntertn -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 8:38:57 PM)
funny at times I forget the 30-06 is bigger than most army rifles nowdays

Joenextdoor -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 8:46:12 PM)
If this kid had no prior offenses, and was legally allowed to own a gun, then nothing short of totally outlawing guns would have stopped him. That would violate the 2nd Amendment, so just what does anyone think should be the "controls" needed to prevent this? A waiting period wouldn't have worked if he already had the gun, or took it from someone else. Banning so-called assault rifles wouldn't have done it, and neither would limiting magazine capacity. Registration schemes wouldn't have worked to stop this. Safety courses and licensing wouldn't have stopped this. 100,000 more cops wouldn't have stopped this. Absolutely nothing would have stopped this, short of the boy using better judgement. It is a shame, and a tragedy, that this young man's life was cut short over something stupid, but please someone tell me just which one of the thousands of gun controls already on the books, or proposed here, would have stopped this tragedy?

philosophy -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/12/2008 10:45:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Out of individuals or governments, which group has the most checks and balances on their behaviour? Individuals. The checks and balances are called neighbors. Governments have only their own internal inefficiencies and the capacity of the citizenry to oppose the government to keep their behavior in check. ....well, i'm glad that those checks and balances you so admire worked so well at Columbine, among other examples. You see, you're living in an idealised world. Neighbours clearly don't work in the way you suggest. Maybe they could be made to work, but that's social engineering......and you've made it abundantly clear what you think of social engineering. Now, i'm actually not suggesting that gun control ought to be draconian, far from it. However, the principle you've suggested (that all types of weapons controlled by the government ought to be available to citizens legally) runs into a wall. The society that could be modelled in which that wouldn't lead to the murder of thousands (when Joe Six-packs anthrax barrel blows up accidentally, or when his psychotic younger brother decides to pour it off the top of a clock tower) doesn't exist. Maybe it existed at one point in history, but that point isn't now. If it were then we wouldn't have people shooting up schools or malls would we? The public ownership of weapons needs some, i say some, common sense restrictions.

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