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RE: More About Safwords - 11/14/2008 8:26:55 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		My question would be why the people were playing without a firmly established trust.  Is a safeword even necessary if trust is in place?  I guess that is an individual decision.  My trust is not in a safeword, but in my partner.  Should it not be adhered to, I would know it was not because he did not wish to honor it, but something prevented it (didn't hear it, maybe).  I know my partner will not violate something like this intentionally because my trust in him is important to him.  I know he is not diminishing his vigilence in the expectation that I will use this little word if needed.  He would just as well respond to regular communication as that little word.  It is really a partner thing.  A good partner is a good partner.  A little word will not protect you from a bad partner.  Once again, the importance is in building a good foundation.  Nothing else will ever replace it.

lovingpet

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: More About Safwords - 11/14/2008 8:49:51 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		Even in a LTR things can happen that are out of my control or have never happened before, I'm human, I can make a mistake, I might know somebody very very well, there can still be a misunderstanding in reading the other person (happens in vanilla fairly often, so even more in BDSM), let's put it this way, a safeword is a bit like the airbag in a car, of course the best course of action is that you don't need it but in case something goes wrong, it's good that it is there.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: More About Safwords - 11/14/2008 11:25:04 AM   
MasterTslave


Posts: 200
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		Master T and i have been together for some time now and plan to stay together for the rest of our lives...this said yes, we still do have safewords.  Master has learned more about me as we have been together and i no longer use my safeword unless it is necessary.  Master gets carried away every once in a while...he counts on me to stop the scene when it gets to be too much.  I don't think it is a bad thing, he just likes to push the limits as much as he can.  It expands our thoughts of how much is too much for us.

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: More About Safwords - 11/14/2008 11:33:19 AM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting responses.  My safeword will not stop the play  Master will look at the situation that caused me to safrword and decide upon a cours of action.  That being said i have never used mine.  if i did have to Master would honor it.  I have never had to use it because after all this time together he ready my body launuage.  Like just yesterday he stopped what he was doing because as he put it he thought i was going to have a heart attack.  I did not want him to but, he knew he had to.

Matt's littleone



(in reply to MasterTslave)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: More About Safwords - 11/14/2008 12:31:58 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist



Mistoferin is much better at explaining this than I ever could be, but, let me explain why I totally agree with her about the ‘concept’ of safe words.

Please understand that the following is hypothetical only

...


IrishMist,

I completely understand the point that you're making... and in that sense, I agree with you that the whole "Everyone should have a safeword and people who won't give you one are BAAAAAD people" thing is malarkey, and that it sets up a whole sense of false safety. It is also true that -having- a safeword won't protect a person worth squat if the inflictor of the pain or enforcer of the scene is determined not to comply with that safeword, which makes the safeword pretty useless as a security tool. I'm not big on 'guarantees' or 'promises' in any case, and to me, a safeword seems like a potentially unfulfillable promise.That being said, though, I think there's a point at which you can throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

Yes, generalized 'safewords' are about worth the toilet-tissue they're written on. However, specific safewords geared towards particular situations where language is impaired or where the activities of the scene would make using regular language like "STOP" and "NO" unsatisfactory can be useful.

Scenes that I'm thinking of include capture/resistance scenes, and defiance scenes, where "no", "stop", and "don't" may be confusing. In that case, particularly if there is intense physical interaction or implements are being used that have never been used before, or if the relationship is really new, having some agreed-upon signal that this "no" isn't part of the scene makes sense.

I am -definitely- not an advocate of the "Everyone has to have a safeword" camp... not even for first-play or casual-play situations (someone with me for the very first time, that I've only just met can still end a session with me by saying "enough" or "no"), but I can see times when it is useful, in very limited, very specific circumstances.


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: More About Safwords - 11/14/2008 12:35:07 PM   
Hisunfoldinglily


Posts: 55
Joined: 1/30/2008
Status: offline 		i don't have a safeword. Last year i looked at Master and said i know i don't need it anymore. Yes i will plead no or stop please. But He knows me well enough to know that until He sees certain body signs or hand movements that i am okay. That is just an advantage of  being together 24/7 for so long that He knows me so very well.

(in reply to SingleRarity)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: More About Safwords - 11/15/2008 11:44:36 PM   
greeneyedreamer


Posts: 442
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline 		Well, if i am so zoned out I can't much speak, I think a safeword is pretty much useless. I would rather my dominant know my body language so well he sees when the intensity is too much. but that is just us. it's only my own opinion, others may find it perfectly useful and needed.

Dreamer

_____________________________

Dreamer, owned and ecstatically happy

I am still learning... Michelangelo, age 87

Maybe some women weren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they are suppose to run wild until they find someone just as wild to run with. Sex and the City

(in reply to Hisunfoldinglily)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 12:11:12 AM   
atypicalsub


Posts: 284
Joined: 4/11/2008
From: an atypical sub
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The problem is that people are under the false idea that safewords have anything to do with trust.

Mistakes happen, cramps happen, flashbacks happen, migraines happen, bad moods happen- scenes sometimes need to be stopped or paused for awhile for no reason other than "something unexpected and unable to be anticipated happened."

Not about trust, and anyone who thinks it is is fooling themselves.

Which actually is part of why I do not use safewords- because they have nothing to do with trust.  They don't at day one and they don't at day 1,001.


I was agreeing with you completely until that last sentence.  Of course safe words have nothing to do with trust.  A safe word is pointless if you can't TRUST the person you are with to observe it and stop the scene.  A safe word will not protect you.  All it can do is to alert the person in control that you feel you need to stop.  A safe word is for all the other very valid reasons you listed, that things happen that were not planned on! 

We also use the traffic light system that others mentioned here.  I have used 'yellow' for Mistress to pause a moment and let me catch my breath.  I have only used 'red' once.  It had nothing to do with the scene, the level of pain, fear, or physical harm.  Mistress has used a knife on my back and drawn blood.  I did not call 'red' for that and was actually disappointed that she stopped when I told her I could continue a bit longer.  The one time I called 'red' was when she was giving me an manicure.  I still have no idea *why* but I simply can not take the sensation of an emery board on my finger nails.  This must have set off something from my childhood that I still do not understand.  How could anyone have known? 


_____________________________

Polyamorous, solitary eclectic pagan, pansexual slut, and personal pet of MistressYes

"Do not do anything you are ashamed of, and don't be ashamed of anything you do"
(although I'm sure my bio-family wishes I did less and was ashamed of more)


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 12:53:24 AM   
atypicalsub


Posts: 284
Joined: 4/11/2008
From: an atypical sub
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Now granted, 98% of those out there CAN be trusted to adhere to the safe word that is agreed upon and to the conditions that are set up before hand…but how do you explain to someone who has been told repeatedly that a safe word stops play…how do you explain to them that sometimes…sometimes….a safe word will do them no good.

That is why I wish that the whole concept of safe words…and the unreliable trust that so many put into them…would just go away. It has nothing to do with wanting to take away the option, and everything to do with trying to let others  know that placing your life in the hands of a 'word' or 'certain action' is no substitute for good, reliable communication and common sense.



Who has every advocated using a safe word as a substitute for good communication?  A safe word is just an additional form of communication.  I have never, ever, seen anyone say that if you have a safe word then the sub does not need to communicate or the dominant does not need to pay attention to the sub's reactions.  A safe word is just in case the sub needs to communicate something urgently that the dominant might not be aware of.  Safewords are just in case something goes wrong and the dominant doesn't happen to be a mind reader.


_____________________________

Polyamorous, solitary eclectic pagan, pansexual slut, and personal pet of MistressYes

"Do not do anything you are ashamed of, and don't be ashamed of anything you do"
(although I'm sure my bio-family wishes I did less and was ashamed of more)


(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 6:16:05 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

have never, ever, seen anyone say that if you have a safe word then the sub does not need to communicate or the dominant does not need to pay attention to the sub's reactions. 

In that case, I would suggest you go back through all the posts on here that have dealt with safeword usage. You will find quite a few that advocate just such a thing.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to atypicalsub)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 8:05:33 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I can understand why having a specific phrase or agreed response can be beneficial or useful where two people are 'playing' and don't know each other 'that' well.

Plenty of dominants or tops wouldn't want to risk 'reading' someone incorrectly. I don't think I'd expect someone I barely know to know that my *fuck, please stop* may mean *fuck, please don't stop*.

In casual play it's as much up to the bottom as the top. It's equally worthless if the bottom can't utter it, as it is if the top ignores it. I've heard as many whinges from tops that have been left with resentful bottoms who thought the top 'should have known' that they can't/won't use their safeword.

agirl






(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 8:10:02 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

My question would be why the people were playing without a firmly established trust.  Is a safeword even necessary if trust is in place?  I guess that is an individual decision.  My trust is not in a safeword, but in my partner.  Should it not be adhered to, I would know it was not because he did not wish to honor it, but something prevented it (didn't hear it, maybe).  I know my partner will not violate something like this intentionally because my trust in him is important to him.  I know he is not diminishing his vigilence in the expectation that I will use this little word if needed.  He would just as well respond to regular communication as that little word.  It is really a partner thing.  A good partner is a good partner.  A little word will not protect you from a bad partner.  Once again, the importance is in building a good foundation.  Nothing else will ever replace it.

lovingpet


People DO play outside of 'partnerships. It's not at all unusual. They top and bottom in dungeons, clubs and play parties for mutual pleasure.

agirl

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 9:57:04 AM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
meet in a public place the first time and decide that their next visit will include a bit of ‘play’.


In this situation I agree with you entirely.

I wouldn't tell them to use a safeword... I would tell them 'WHAT THE FUCK!? Are you deranged?' or something to the effect.

Safewords only work, as has been said by others, when the person using it KNOWS that the other person will adhere to it.

There's no point, otherwise, you're right.

But it's a perfectly valid method of communication where usual forms of withdrawing consent (i.e. 'No' or 'Stop') don't mean what they normally do. In other situations a safe 'action' is just as valid (i.e. the knocking three times quickly) of a way for communication.

Maybe it's just me, but I generally don't find the idea of playing with anyone that I don't know *well* attractive or exciting. The idea abhorrs me... which is probably why I like the idea of a safeword so well, especially in first-play situations or when you're getting to know someone's reactions. How can I expect a new dominant to know that when I cry it means 'STOP' when in his last relationship it meant his submissive was enjoying himself? At least in a 'getting-to-know-each-other' situation I would definitely need my safeword, or else I'd likely not do any BDSM activities with him until we'd been together for a WHILE. In either case I still wouldn't play with him until I had the trust to know he'd listen.

*Sigh* I'm really inarticulate about this.

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 1:11:14 PM   
sincitykitty


Posts: 7
Joined: 2/16/2008
Status: offline 		I've never had to use a safe word with anyone. I'm pretty sure if you yell out RED, STOP, it would be understood. Also if you said yellow, most people would understand to back off some. Body language can be very telling if the top is paying attention. Quite honestly, if you're playing with a top that isn't paying attention to your body/body language, you are in danger anyway.

(in reply to SingleRarity)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 4:25:35 PM   
subbisherri


Posts: 109
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline 		Wouldn't color words be more appropriate? You know, green - yellow - red, kind of stages of discontent rather than safewording out?

My safeword is actually two words. The first is like really really bright red: something is wrong, something isn't working, if I stay like this my shoulder will pop out or something like that. So fix it and let's carry on, or let's talk about it and straighten it out and go on from there. Both words together though, that means untie me, let me out, I'm outta here, this is just wrong, that sort of thing. Maybe I'm tired, maybe just crabby and shouldn't have been here in the first place, maybe my partner is an idiot or is going way too far. Regardless, I always looked at my safewords (the plural means both words) as this scene is over for me.

A safeword isn't something to use lightly though (the subbi who cried wolf?). I always looked at it as something that meant stop stop stop, but more in a bottom role, not a submissive one. Then again, I'm totally conflicted about roles these days, so I could be wrong. That said though, since you have a Master, is it really a "safeword" you need or are using? As you love him and trust him, do you really need a word to take you to a safe place? What I'm trying to say is, would it be easier to construe a word as an opportunity to communicate an issue, rather than safe out?

And if that's what you do with it, then I'm an idiot and disregard everything I wrote.

ss

(in reply to SingleRarity)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: More About Safwords - 11/16/2008 11:13:47 PM   
babygirlkitten


Posts: 66
Joined: 10/25/2008
From: Manhattan
Status: offline 		I personally support the use of safewords, even in long term relationships. It just works for me, because sometimes I get a little loopy on endorphins, and it's easier for me to recall a familiar word or action than it is for me to articulate what's going on with me in the heat of the moment.

(in reply to SingleRarity)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: More About Safwords - 11/17/2008 2:19:17 AM   
Obsidiansnamaste


Posts: 266
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings,

No i do not have a safeword. If i were to experience injury or potential injury i am to give Master that information immediately (IE: Master, Your slave can not feel her hands - or something like that) outside of that, it is totally at Masters will and desire when a session begins or ends as well as to what intensity level it goes. 

_____________________________

Always in His service,

~Master Obsidians namaste
http://houseobsidian.wordpress.com
http://his-namaste.livejournal.com

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: More About Safwords - 11/17/2008 3:26:30 AM   
RainydayNE


Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: atypicalsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Now granted, 98% of those out there CAN be trusted to adhere to the safe word that is agreed upon and to the conditions that are set up before hand…but how do you explain to someone who has been told repeatedly that a safe word stops play…how do you explain to them that sometimes…sometimes….a safe word will do them no good.

That is why I wish that the whole concept of safe words…and the unreliable trust that so many put into them…would just go away. It has nothing to do with wanting to take away the option, and everything to do with trying to let others  know that placing your life in the hands of a 'word' or 'certain action' is no substitute for good, reliable communication and common sense.



Who has every advocated using a safe word as a substitute for good communication?  A safe word is just an additional form of communication.  I have never, ever, seen anyone say that if you have a safe word then the sub does not need to communicate or the dominant does not need to pay attention to the sub's reactions.  A safe word is just in case the sub needs to communicate something urgently that the dominant might not be aware of.  Safewords are just in case something goes wrong and the dominant doesn't happen to be a mind reader.



agreed
nobody's saying "you dont need to talk or get to know them, just use your magic word!" =p
the time i used mine, the color was all that i could think
there wasn't any space in my brain for "excuse me, could we take a minute? something's going wrong with me"
but there was the color, and he understood it immediately
the fact that it's there doesnt mean that i don't trust him or that we don't communicate
it's just another KIND of communication

(in reply to atypicalsub)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: More About Safwords - 11/17/2008 4:03:09 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

If you are in a long term relationship, did you are do you still have a safeword for certain situations?


yes. "Master, is that a bone sticking out?" is only to be said if it represents reality...other than that, no.

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: More About Safwords - 11/17/2008 4:54:53 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

If you are in a long term relationship, did you are do you still have a safeword for certain situations?


yes. "Master, is that a bone sticking out?" is only to be said if it represents reality...other than that, no.

LMFAO
Dayum,  I spit coffee everywhere AGAIN

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 60
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