Fork in the River (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> Fork in the River (12/20/2005 8:43:43 AM)

There was Four Masters that decided to go canoing with their respective slaves. They chose a river that neither had any experience on but each learned what they could before they ventured down this river. It was indeed a exciting experience as they put there canoes into the river and began to paddle the river. As they paddled down the river they came to a fork in the river. The first Master without hesitation turned and went down the left fork with his slave. The second Master watching the first turned to the left considered if he wished to follow or not and then choose to go to the Right fork instead. The third Master started to follow the second when his slave leaned over and whispered quietly to him. Upon the slaves quiet thoughts the Master changed his direction and turned to the left fork instead. The fourth Master watching from a distance saw only two Masters take the right and one take the left. He turned to his slave. I see that my friend has taken the fork to the right alone, I am intending to travel with him so he is not alone, what thoughts do you have on this slave? "Master", said the slave "if it is your will I will go with you down the right fork in the river, but the right fork is a path of certain death as the river comes to a water fall of great height". The Master looked upon the forks and turned to the left.

What are your thougths on the Masters and the slaves as they came to the fork in the River?




Mercnbeth -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 8:57:28 AM)

quote:

What are your thougths on the Masters and the slaves as they came to the fork in the River?


They should have planned better and if one person in the party, slave or Master, knew the river and consequences of taking the wrong fork they should have enlightened the others in the party and/or led the expedition.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 8:58:05 AM)

We each have our methods. As long as the slave is following the methods that the owner wants, then it's sweet. If the master doesn't like the consequences of his methods, then he can either change the methods, change himself, or find a new slave (although repetition of new slave might lead one to think that the master is unwilling to consider the other two options when he might ought).

If the slave doesn't like the methods of the master, the slave should be owned by someone else.

Some masters want slaves to give input, some don't. Some masters want slaves to lead, some don't.




siamsa24 -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 8:58:42 AM)

I think that it means sometimes we have to listen to those "below" us, often times they know better then we do. I have learned this time and time again as a supervisor at my job.
This is a story of life, not just BDSM.




happypervert -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 9:02:10 AM)

My thoughts are that they were paddling upstream because I've never heard of a river that branched going downstream with one going over a cliff and another avoiding it. So I don't understand how it would be certain death.

I believe a great philosopher named Yogi Berra once said "when you get to the fork in the road, take it." I suppose that applies to rivers as well.




Sensualips -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 9:28:18 AM)

My thought is the fourth Master chose to trust the information/perception of his slave over the judgement of his friend.





slavejali -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 12:44:43 PM)

Your relationship with your partner takes priority over what anyone else is doing or saying.




windy135 -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 1:10:26 PM)

it's good to be openminded and take the input of others




SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 1:39:36 PM)

Hoping one or both of them is an excellent swimmer and extremely lucky, to boot.

Seriously, maybe one could think about making or finding a map ahead of time? I realize sometimes that is not possible, but in that case, maybe then one of them (presumably the Master) could say to the other: "We are going where there is no map and - we may be facing danger at some point. I will do my best to protect you - are you up for it? It's okay if you're not, but you've got to let me know".




SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 1:46:17 PM)

In my last post, I was referring to the fourth Master. But there are three others as well as their slaves, too. I think this entire scanario has much to say about the myriad of choices as far as activity available within the bdsm community? I mean, it is so varied and there are so many choices, it is only natural that the way people interact and what kinds of activity they choose to enage in will influence others around them. Maybe that is why sometimes some people think there is one "acceptable" way to do certain activities?
I suppose it is only natural this would occur within groups of people who interact a lot with eachother. It could also really end up restricting creative new ways of doing things.




SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 2:04:41 PM)

Just to clarify: I am being silly as far as the "hoping one is an excellent swimmer" comment. I mean no disrespect whatsoever and think it is an intriguing post. Because I do think there is a sort of "groupthink" thing that I've seen happen. I am not sure (except in the case of insisting things be SSC) that it benefits EVERYONE, all the time, everywhere, no exceptions. Know what I mean?




SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 2:58:41 PM)

Ooooh. Wait a minute. I just read another thread that relates to this one (can't remember where but it did somehow...anyway -

Is this fourth Master expecting his slave to do something that is not SSC?

ls the Master not allowing the slave to use a safeword in order to "prove" her devotion?

If that is the case, I'd say then that what I said first off is right (maybe) -

If the Master is saying: "This is a scenario that might end up not what you bargained for. I am telling you this now so you can decide if you want to do it", on the surface I guess that looks okay.

There may be a problem, though. Aren't most slaves going to be conditioned (and want) to do whatever their Masters want? I'd say in that case the Master is not actually giving the slave a choice. Knowing the slave will want to follow, any "choice" given, if the Master has made His wishes known, is going to be not really a choice at all. Because the slave will always want to do what she knows pleases him. Hmmm.




MasterHyde -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 3:19:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

What are your thougths on the Masters and the slaves as they came to the fork in the River?


My thoughts are as follows:

At least three of those "Masters" had no business canoeing on that river. The one who chose the right fork, and the two others who would have chosen it had their slaves not informed them. Now, it's possible that one or more of these fellows told his slave to study the maps and learn the route they had to take. If that were the case, then he would also have to leave the navigation up to his slave, since she read the maps and he did not.

Apparently "learned what they could" didn't amount to much since only one of the four actually knew where he was going. And who knows, maybe he didn't have a clue either. He could have just been lucky.

In addition, I think it would have been entirely appropriate for one of more of these slaves to ask for her release as soon as this canoe trip was over. And I know it may seem like I'm overreacting to a hypothetical situation that's simply intended to demonstrate that sometimes a slave knows better than her master, but if this were a real situation, then taking a canoe trip without first reading the maps and being informed about something as dangerous as "a waterfall of great height" shows a rather high level of unnecessary ignorance. Putting himself and others into that situation without knowing the danger is just plain irresponsible.





SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 3:45:08 PM)

Wow, you got really good points there. I know I try to read a lot about bdsm in its myriad variations (not all of which i may want to try) but I know in real life I would prefer that Masters be the ones who read maps. Or create them (or ask for a slave's input in making one, maybe), if they are embarking on "new" territory and "boldly going where (maybe) not many Masters and slaves have gone before".

Although considering the myriad activity within bdsm, I am sure somebody, somewhere has tried just about everything once.

Which means to me there is a probably a "map" re: How to do it out there - somewhere. And presumably, people have computers or they would not be reading this forum. Which means there is internet research to (maybe) avail oneself of - somehow. Which means to me there might not be a very good reason to say to a slave "There is no map. Sorry."

And where the heck am I going with this, hehe....




Sensualips -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 3:49:47 PM)

Come now, KoM...don't leave us hanging. Tell us your thoughts as well.




KnightofMists -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 5:39:30 PM)

I have enjoyed several of the thoughts that have been shared so far and wish to share a few reflections on what I posted. I will add that no answer was right or wrong… they are only our opinions on what we feel and think … very much like life in general.

Nothing is known for certain when we go down a river or our journey of life. All the preparations and knowledge of what is coming ahead can’t be for certain. As a person that has canoed down rivers and friends that have done it as well…. All the preparations and maps and opinions from those that have traveled a river before you can’t tell you everything that is going to come ahead. This lifestyle is like that as well. Our individual uniqueness will cause us to see the information before us differently. We each assess risk differently and have different tolerance to the risks we perceive.

When we look upon the analogy I drew… we make assumptions based on our own perspective. They may or may not have known of the water falls that lead to certain death. However, the probability that they all knew is highly likely since at least one slave demonstrated the knowledge. We only assume that the 3rd slave has this knowledge because the Master changed the direction he was going. The whisper could have been anything and not at all related to the danger ahead. I also make the opinion that we as a community are quick to make the certain dangers known to those around us. Online or Offline we as a community not only promote our way of life but we seek to do it in a safe manner. Dangers are quick to be highlighted. It is of course not uncommon that the more subtle dangers go unnoticed, but the greater and more certain the danger, the more aware we are of its existence However, the actual knowledge of what the different Masters knew in navigating the river is only an assumption. All we see is that they made a choice and we are rarely privileged to know the actual interactions between Master and slave. Of the four relationships, we only see two instances that we become privileged to witness the interaction and we still only see a sliver of the entire relationship, but yet we will be quick to make assumptions of the whole.

In first relationship, the Master chooses to take the left fork. He didn’t ask the slave for their opinion that we saw… and this is the key… just because we didn’t see it, doesn’t mean it didn’t occur.

In the second relationship, the Master chooses to take the right. Now we can assume that the community didn’t make them aware of the great or certain risk before them or we can assume that they were made aware. So why would the Master take a risk that as one said was a waterfall of certain death. It is a question of risk tolerance. Many choose to take a path that is of a higher risk that we as a community are willing to take. Also, it is very likely that this Master’s plan was to actually land the canoe before the falls and carry the canoe with the slave. The risks are greater down this one fork… but the choice is theirs to make, we don’t always know the skills and plans of those around us. We also will have different risk awareness and tolerance. But often we judge these individuals not on there abilities and knowledge… for we actually in truth don’t know them… but we judge them on our own abilities and knowledge. We can only judge ourselves by that standard not others.

The third relationship, the Master changed direction after a whisper from the slave. Some I am sure assumed the slave was making the Master aware of the danger. Maybe the slave was just making the Master aware that her ankle is sore and carrying the canoe would be highly difficult. The reasons why the Master changed the direction is not for certain, except the slave information changed the Masters decision. We as Masters often change the decisions we make because of the little things we learn from the slave. The thoughts and feelings of a slave are critical on many occasions. How this exchange occurs will be different for every relationship, some we become privileges to see, and others we don’t and when we do it is but only a small piece of a bigger puzzle.

The fourth relationship, the Master directly asked the slave for their opinion. It is not uncommon that Masters directly ask the slave. We know the Master’s intentions is to go to the right, If we continue with the assumption that the great and certain danger has been revealed by the community… then why would the Master want to take this path. Was it to follow a Master of greater experience and learn? Was it because he also had a plan to disembark and carry the canoe. But he also looked to the opinion of his slave. The slave was only concerned of the risk. The slave may or may not have known the plan to disembark. As we travel this lifestyle, if we don’t have a plan we tend to follow the majority of the community. We avoid the greater risks until our knowledge grows and also our tolerance for that risk.

These are only a few thoughts to share. One can go on forever on a post like this. I think the most interesting is to consider the assumptions we make in viewing the situation. Learning how we perceive the world and others is in my opinion of great value for our growth. I will also add that the terms Master/slave was just used for simplicity and they could be interchange with whatever terms/labels one wishes to use.

Thanks for the thoughts





Crazytwice -> RE: Fork in the River (12/20/2005 11:09:15 PM)

I have to second Mercnbeth. If one person is aware of the dangers in a certain choice, it is a duty is take charge and prevent others from harm. All good leaders know the value of allowing someone with more knowledge to take the wheel.
Looking for more in this seems like silly rhetoric.




ExistentialSteel -> RE: Fork in the River (12/21/2005 1:23:18 AM)

Yep, Mercnbeth nailed it best and first. It is wise to listen to those who give you good advice.

I do find it interesting the way the slave gave the advice. She said she would go with him if he wanted to take the branch of the river with the fatal waterfall, but she wanted him to know the consequences. Her advice was soft like the kind of snow that is deepest. The softer it falls, the longer it lasts and deeper it sinks into the mind.




julj -> RE: Fork in the River (12/21/2005 6:10:31 AM)

WOW




Noah -> RE: Fork in the River (12/21/2005 6:19:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists



What are your thougths on the Masters and the slaves as they came to the fork in the River?



Whether master or slave, a fork in the river should always elicit a humble prayer of thanks that one's boat is not an inflatable,

unless it is.






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