RE: Fork in the River

RE: Fork in the River (Full Version)

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candystripper -> RE: Fork in the River (12/21/2005 9:15:27 AM)
quote: I do find it interesting the way the slave gave the advice. She said she would go with him if he wanted to take the branch of the river with the fatal waterfall, but she wanted him to know the consequences. Her advice was soft like the kind of snow that is deepest. The softer it falls, the longer it lasts and deeper it sinks into the mind. ExSteel What a lovely thought, Sir. candystripper

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 6:58:29 AM)
I understand this thread now I think and this open-ended post was just so good for having me toss my own thoughts out in the wind and THINK. If a Dom/Master didn't let his sub/slave know how a particular scenario would end up, that just might be a part of the whole dynamic and make things even more yummily intriguing-fulfilling and meet their individual needs, etc. I get that. And it leads me to... having a general question. If you (or anyone) would not mind answering, whenever times permits. It might seem off-beat for this thread, but not for the way I think. It's about Sadism. Note hopefully I don't even have to add here, but will, for any who may wonder: I care not how other people lead their lives. This site is all education for me and I find most things I think I know something about, while I may know a bit, whatever twist or interpretation I've put on it inside my own head, will usually be subject to the fact that people have their own individual tastes, etc. I truly make no judgments and seem to be insatiably curious about a lot of topics. I also personally have what I consider to be some pretty heavy punishment-play fantasies (or whatever they are - in any case, they are there). I still have this question, though: What level of after-care does Sadism involve? I realize it is an individual taste between two partners, etc. - but I've always had the impression it might involve a lot less than other streams of play. Now I am thinking this isn't true and was probably a bit off-base to think that (regardless of whether I am personally "into it" or not) Anyway - what kind of after-care do sadists do after a scene or in general? I realize this question must sound incredibly ignorant, because it is so general, but - I am compelled to ask it anyway because I really really want to know. *Sometimes a lot of aftercare? Sometimes none? What would doing it depend on? Thank you so much (whoever answers). Just curious. - Susan

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 7:19:07 AM)
Re: My comment (immediatley above): I think I get that as long as a scenario is SSC it is okay for a Master-Dom to maybe not always have to let a Sub-slave know Exactly what is going to happen as long as there is trust that has been established between them (that has been well-earned, hopefully. That is my interpretation of this thread anyway). For instance: Allowing a Sub-slave to know When the Master-Dom will actually stop doing whatever it is they are doing to the other person (unless, of course, a safeword is used), or even What it is the Master-Dom actually had in mind as far as "where" a scene may begoing in the first place. Isn't this known as a "Mindfu_?" I am not particularly well-educated regarding the concept of the Mindfu_. I have no idea whether I am a fan of them or not - but that isn't the question I guess... Do you think Mindfu_s take place in Sadistic scenarios more than ones that do not involve Sadism? Maybe I should ask about this topic by starting another thread (if someone objects to seeing it here, I will, I suppose, although it seems okay its here). Thanks. Just curious. -Susan

afmvdp -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 7:53:38 AM)
...and now for something completely different. And what if both slave and Master knew full well what the path before him lead to but made the choice all the same? Sometimes the "mistakes" of others are really the intentions all along even if to some it would be believed that they are going off the edge of a cliff, maybe they were just unaware that the Master knew how to fly? Remember at one time even the most intellectual and wise men of the world believed that even the earth itself was not much more than a great cliff and it took such an "accident" to discover the new world. Just trying to skew the point that it was assumed that the slave who informed their Master of the potential peril was never proven right, just that her Master succumb to her belief as he knew no better himself and took what he believed to of been the safer path. Sadly enough it tends to be the most common path these days. I guess it would of just been too hard for them to of researched the river path and inquired from previous watergoers and just jump right into the water and hope that their own decisions based purely upon what they believed they knew to be right rather than what they learned and trained into an absolute and could of acted upon without doubt and with faithful determination.

veronicaofML -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 8:07:39 AM)
so let me get this straight,,,,,,,, the guy has a friend...whom is headed for his death..and he cowers out...instead of trying to save his life? and then i am asked WHY i say no one on this planet can be trusted.............??????????? some damned friend THAT asshole turned out to be!~ i for one...........am quite ticked off at the audacity...... i hate a coward......where's the damned loyalty of friendship?

Padriag -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 8:18:10 AM)
I'm coming to this thread a bit late and most of the comments I might have made, already have been. Its a pity too cause I love discussing this kind of stuff. [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel I do find it interesting the way the slave gave the advice. She said she would go with him if he wanted to take the branch of the river with the fatal waterfall, but she wanted him to know the consequences. Her advice was soft like the kind of snow that is deepest. The softer it falls, the longer it lasts and deeper it sinks into the mind. That's the kind of obedience and trust I would personally expect from a slave I own. I don't mind her giving advice, but she should trust that I know what I'm doing. As her Master I've taken responsibility for both her and the relationship, to safe guard both and to make good decisions about that, she needs to trust in that. The waterfall doesn't spell certain death. I've been down rivers like that and I simply stopped before I got to the waterfall, portaged around it and went on. There's more than one way to get around obstacles in life... and all obstacles are just that... something to be overcome or gotten around. BTW KoM, something else we have in common, canoing. I own a 17' lake canoe with a 3' beam. Seats four comfortably... lays two. [:)]

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 8:28:26 AM)
I don't think maybe the OP really meant "death" literally (I really don't. I don't know him, but did read his profile, and he seems SSC and doubt if he's into Snuff, hehe). I think it was a potential Teaching Exercise, he seems committed to this life in a relatively sane way to me. It did get me thinking a lot, and I am just here to learn things anyway. I am pretty sure the original post was a creative analogy to simply get a dialogue going, and illustrate (whatever one wants it to, I suppose) - it was open-ended and pretty interesting. I read all of the responses (which I appreciated, too), then I thought: "Wait- is this thread over? Already? But I am new here and have a lot of questions. Then I thought to myself: Well then, I can ask a question! (it's a free country, hehe). Why this would be a revelation to me I do not know, ha! Anyway, To me, the original post (after having read through the whole thread again, said: Some bdsm scenarios may not always be what the Sub-slave may have originally thought it was going to be(not in a Baaad way, necessarily. If they both people are "into doing that", it sounds yummy, kinda). I think the OP's response made some good points about risk-tolerance, and I am thinking that kind of tolerance is a pretty individual thing. I DO know the trust would have to be there between partners for sure (for me) to be willing to be "led off a cliff" and I'd think someone would really, really have to know what the other person could "handle" as well as their perceptions of the word "extreme" and what it is they find fulfilling in general (extreme to one is maybe not to another, etc.). I think it's pretty open to anyone's individual perceptions (which I am guessing was the whole idea). And for me, it got me thinking. Particularly about the whole area of Sadism and Mindfu_s. I appreciated it led to THAT. I've wondered about them and Sadism forever (guess I this may have been a push I needed to think a bit more). **Can someone (anyone, I care not who) explain their concept of the Mindfu_ to me in greater detail? I used to feel that Mindfu_s were just something that would tick me off, (I understand the basic concept) and that they'd destroy my trust in someone (and I DO still think that, if it were too 'extreme" for me, that is exactly what they Would do) but lately... I am not so sure it wouldn't be FUN and deepen ther commitment between two partners as long as they knew eachother pretty well. Maybe I answered my own question (but I doubt it. I yak a lot but am genuinely seeking knowledge (or at least, opinions. I think other people's opinions can be just plain fascinating especially sometimes if one looks deeper. Of course being able to do that can depend on one's mood and especially time people have available, etc. There are many intelligent people on these boards. Any thoughts out there? Not trying to "hi-jack" this thread (at all). Just asking. - Susan

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 8:37:51 AM)
Yes. I'd think trust between partners would have to be there (but that "exploring" could really deepen things). - Susan

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 8:59:47 AM)
I do think this is a good topic! - Susan

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 9:03:28 AM)
I have lots to do today (which cannot be avoided any longer, and shouldn't be), but really hope this thread does Not die off. I think there's lots to talk about. I love reading these message boards. - Susan

veronicaofML -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 10:50:13 AM)
There are many intelligent people on these boards. ======= ooops that left ME out............ he he "I" aint never did claim to be the brightest crayon in the box. i leave that to the know-it-alls. take care

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 11:24:39 AM)
Ha! I don't think it leaves you out. Why would that be true? ('cuz it's not, as if I am a valid judge of anyone else based on reading a post or two)...In any case, I hope I didn't offend, veronica of ML (that is, if you are doing anything but kidding around here). For the record (not yours in particular - anyone's, I guess): My particular comments today weren't directed at anyone in particular (and rarely are), and are just general comments re: My perception of the direction of the entire thread. I think this thread has so much Potential(!) I don't really have many opinions about the "validity" of other people's comments. Taking a second glance at some might get me to think about a particular topic (I read a lot, but also realize (hopefully) much I Don't know. And also because I think I might have an addiction to message boards, hehe). But time is short (for everyone). I realize there are a lot of sensitive souls (myself included). I really like your sense of humor, ML. Hope you're having a decent week. As for me, what's happening today (that I can really discuss in any detail in this thread?) Well...let's see. My dog opened his Christmas present early without my knowledge (cute. I do love him and guess he was curious and he has a terrific nose - he is a Beagle). I am re-wrapping the left-over tidbits and sticking a bow on it. I really should bake some cookies (seeing as there is $150 worth of ingredients standing on my kitchen counter). I wrapped the gifts, so far, though. I love Christmas, but this year have vowed to keep it simple(r). Gives me more time to appreciate it. Anyway...I realized (just now) that my comments above (before this one) were written directly under your post, and maybe I should have attached them to my post instead- some of my posts are just so darn looong, I thought is would have looked ridiculous and been much for others to wade through. It is Christmas-time, and nobody needs that (I am joking here, if anyone wonders). I am hoping this thread continues. I really liked this one. - Susan

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 12:00:22 PM)
How do I get RID of this post here inside this quote box! Yikes! I clicked cancel and yet it appears. It is Not supposed to be here! Ewww! Help?! I re-write and edit before I post a lot, and this somehow happened. Can I get rid of it, or will it just go away??? If it is annoying to anyone, please just skip over it. It means nothing - it's a Mistake. - Susan quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Ha! I don't think it leaves you out. Why would that be true? ('cuz it's not, as if I am a valid judge of anyone else based on reading a post or two)...In any case, I hope I didn't offend, veronica of ML (that is, if you are doing anything but kidding around here). For the (possibly un-necessary but better-safe-than-sorry record -not yours, ML in particular - anyone's, I guess): Mycomments in this thread today are notdirected at anyone in particular, and are general comments re: My perception of the direction of the entire thread. I think this thread has so much Potential(!) I don't really have many opinions about the "validity" of other people's comments (if I had time to kill, maybe I would. But I doubt it). Taking a second glance at some might get me to think about a particular topic (I read a lot, but also realize (hopefully) how much I Do Not know. To me that's partly the good part. And also because I think I might have an addiction to message boards, hehe). I realize there are a lot of sensitive souls out there (myself included). I really like your sense of humor. Hope you're having a decent week. And I realized (just now) that my comments above (before this one) were written directly under your post, and maybe I should have attached them to my post instead- some of my posts are just so darn looong, I thought is would have looked ridiculous and been much for others to wade through. It is Christmas-time, and nobody needs that (I am joking here, if anyone wonders). I am hoping this thread continues. I know everyone's probably busier than all get out becuase it's Holiday week, etc. (me too). Cheers. Also not sure why this is in quotes, and will learn how to fix it later. Duty calls me now. - Susan

AbstractSavant -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 12:08:16 PM)
There isn't "one true way". It is the simple answer to this riddle.

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 12:39:41 PM)
No, there isn't, I agree. The idea is pretty amusing - especially on an "alternative life-style" discussion site (the irony, hehe). But then again, if one says that sometimes, could one be labelled (if one cares, which I do not, nor do I wish to offend) an "Anti-one-true-wayer." Which somehow segways me into... This term: Old Guard. This must be "curiosity week" for me, as I am asking Q's I never thought to ask before. I am thinking these folks using this term are trying to convey maybe they are living the life-style 24/7 (or hope to), and their intent is not just partying-playing with it on week-ends, for instance? But there's more to it than that, probably... I am taking for granted this term is totally open to interpretation and (as if I need to say this, but for anyone's safer-than-sorry record, including mine) that two people end up doing what they want anyway within its context in acting it out. But - I AM wondering if anyone has an opinion on whether there is a "general interpretation" they hope others will have when they see the term? Is there a general meaning to the term Old Guard? I know it started out in the late 70s...within the homosexual community, etc. But I mean today, in 2005 - when people use the term, is there a general meaning they hope to convey to others? I am Not hoping this will seg-way into a debate about whether people "should use the term", or not". I am just plain curious - whatever people want to do is "legitimate" as far as I know, if they as SSC. What are they wanting it to mean? Generally? (if there is such a thing). - Susan I will check back in later tonight. Duty calls me now. - Susan

GentileDomNY -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 12:47:55 PM)
To begin with, its much easier if you paddle down river, that way the forks join rather than seperate, and much less futile work is involved. Having actually done many canoe trips with groups like this, the first thing that you notice is that over a few days real personality traits and behaviors come out, and any imposed or put-on behavior disappears. The dynamics among the "Ds" is usually much more interesting than the D/s dynamic. If they have come to know ant trust each other and their respective capabilities, they will function as a coheasive whole, and all 4 would go the same way. That they went different ways is an indication that they haven't been through enough together yet. Lastly, any D who assumes any s to be stupid is an idiot. If time and circumstances permit, all should have listened to all insight they could gain from everyone, including every s, before making a critical decision.

afmvdp -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 12:48:27 PM)
Old Guard is sort of a fanciful thought of a supposed WWII leatherman practice, of which no actual proof exists so it can't really be proven or disproven. So it's come to sort of conceptualize obscure concepts for many, the most withstanding that is sort of more commonly accepted is the practice that before someone may be a Dom they must experience life as a sub. Something I personally agree with. And also a sort of BDSM community type living, similar to a localized Gor group. Other than that, it's sort of up in the air, the following will help answer the rest. http://www.tdl.com/~thawley/oldgd1.html http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/olddays.htm and http://www.tdl.com/~thawley/history.htm has more links if you really have the time to waste

veronicaofML -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 1:00:43 PM)
Susanof O ya just delete the "quote" ....word that ends it

veronicaofML -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 1:06:00 PM)
Three are the Beasts wherewith thou must plough the Field; the Unicorn, the Horse, and the Ox. And these shalt thou yoke in a triple yoke that is governed by One Whip. - Crowley ~ OTO Liber III ============\\ i don't mind the ox and the horse....... but unicorn???????? no way dudes they are supposed to be magical and sacred........ain't no way they should be used as a farm critter......... whoever this crowley is..oughta be whipped himself.......he's an idiot! that's my story and i'm stickin to it.

SusanofO -> RE: Fork in the River (12/22/2005 1:25:10 PM)
Thank you very much. I am going to read these and do appreciate it a LOT. - Susan

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