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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 9:46:56 AM   
Jeptha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I'm always amazed it matters so much.
Old, new, sex, no sex, young, old - who gives a fuck as long as we are all happy doing it our own way.

'Zackly.
Social covenants evolve, and *generally speaking*, that change is good thing in that more options and choices is, *generally speaking*, a good thing.

Having to thoughtfully craft what the terms of your relationship will be, rather than only being able to select from a limited set of options provided for you by your culture (or subculture, as the case may be) at large, is *generally speaking*, a good thing.

Being able to change your mind and the criteria you desire as your experience grows is, generally, a good thing.

People may seem flightier today, and sometimes may seem overwhelmed by their choices, but I still find that preferable to life adhering to rote convention.

(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 9:51:39 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Maybe because you are young yourself so therefore would know more younger people?


Yup I probably do know more younger people, so wouldnt that add more validity to my point?


In my opinion yes.
However to those who are being ageist in this thread it wouldn't make an iota fo difference. To them you would just be another snotty nosed kid.

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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 10:02:03 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

I still sort of amazed the historical misconceptions of the history involved.

I'm always amazed it matters so much.
Old, new, sex, no sex, young, old - who gives a fuck as long as we are all happy doing it our own way.


Exactly! :-)  

I suppose makes for interesting subject to put on the history channel.

So we are not doing things the right way like our Grandparents some did. lol..
I never had to walk 10 miles to school in my bare feet during a snow storm.

Yet we are reminded about how watered down BDSM has become.  lol... 
BDSM came about to do just that, water things down for the straight world.
I'm as happy a freshly watered plant too about it.  (grin).

You'd swear it was all set in stone like the 10 commandments eons ago. 
We might as well be talking about Dinosaur bones if you ask me. 

It's a bit like worrying about a T-Rex hunting us down in the woods.


I completely agree. I think Rover is right too when he says its all down to 'one twue wayism'.
 
quote:

Social covenants evolve, and *generally speaking*, that change is good thing in that more options and choices is, *generally speaking*, a good thing.

Having to thoughtfully craft what the terms of your relationship will be, rather than only being able to select from a limited set of options provided for you by your culture (or subculture, as the case may be) at large, is *generally speaking*, a good thing.

Being able to change your mind and the criteria you desire as your experience grows is, generally, a good thing.

People may seem flightier today, and sometimes may seem overwhelmed by their choices, but I still find that preferable to life adhering to rote convention.

 
Ditto.

_____________________________

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 10:16:37 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		If people want to be A sexual then thats there prerogative. If they want to be premiscuous then thats a (hopefully) informed choice too but I really don't believe that the BDSM community are overly promiscuous. That doesn't mean to say they don't have great sex. You will always get people using the BDSM side of things to get a bit of sex but most of us are savvy enough to recognise them and shoo them away.

BDSM (to me) without sex would be like a cigarette without a light...........pointless.

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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 10:24:58 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

If people want to be A sexual then thats there prerogative. If they want to be premiscuous then thats a (hopefully) informed choice too but I really don't believe that the BDSM community are overly promiscuous. That doesn't mean to say they don't have great sex. You will always get people using the BDSM side of things to get a bit of sex but most of us are savvy enough to recognise them and shoo them away.

BDSM (to me) without sex would be like a cigarette without a light...........pointless.



Oh, I could do the BDSM without sex - no problem.  I couldn't do it, however, without the intimacy or without the connection.  It wouldn't even occur to me to attempt it, or that someone else was in fact trying to do so with me.

As an example:

Here's the scenario.  Someone I hadn't seen in about 4 years, contacted me and wanted to get together for a 'vanilla' date to catch up on old times (his words not mine). Being too tired to bother getting fixed up to go out somewhere, I invited him over for tea/coffee and conversation.  I made it clear to him my kids were home and I had to get up early for work so it wouldn't be a late evening. 

He was there chatting with me for more than 2 hours before I realized he was hitting on me, and it never occurred to me, until after he left, that the paint stirrers he brought with him weren't actually in his pocket because he was helping his friend who lost her house, paint and clean up, as he claimed they were.   I was concerned at first about his invite,  but was quickly put to ease in person because he's in a monogomous relationship with his submissive, as he mentioned several times in the course of our conversation.

It honestly never came into my thoughts that the guy would be interested in me, or had showed up with expectations of spanking my ass, when he was involved, or that I was putting myself into a position of having to defer his interests.  The connection wasn't there for me so I naively took his claims at face value.  Call me silly, but I just assume monogomous means unavailable to anyone esle.   I'm such a ditz that way, sometimes.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 11/17/2008 10:41:29 AM >

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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 10:35:47 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello Icarys, I hope today finds you well !
 
Personally, I want it all.  I want the sex and the authority transfere and the play and the commitment.  It's all cool because I do have it all.  But it took me a while to get where I am.  And I did the whole grooviness when I was younger and it hasn't changed one bit in all those years. Protocols are all pretty much the same, people are no different, there is always and has always been the uber master and mistress, the OTT DMs, the annoyingly giggling s-types(usually male), the even more annoying alpha subs who reek superiority over the new peeps and then there are the name droppers. Sometimes, it just takes people a while to get there.  I just see the everything as part of the whole learning and growing kaboodle.  Because for all the protocol and sterotypical peeps you get everywhere, there are gems, wisdom and yummy fun that pretty much beats it all hands down.
 
the.dark.

It has and I wish the same for you and Darcy as well.

I want it all also but I tend to search not with my prick first then my heart and mind. Just sex is empty I think and wonder what drives a person to not want something deeper. Does it come from healthy places or bad?(do I want sex because the thought of having a committed relationship scares the hell outta me?) (same can be said on both sides also..do I want a committed relationship because I'm scared to be alone?) Is it the need for instant gratification? Maybe another topic there.
In the end it doesn't really matter(to each his or her own) and I'm with you when it comes to nothing much has changed. Things have always fluctuated from one side to another throughout history and I'm sure it's no different here. I will say though that in the time I've been around I have noticed a slight push towards less protocol and service vs a sexually dominated encounter.


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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 10:39:07 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Maybe because you are young yourself so therefore would know more younger people?


Yup I probably do know more younger people, so wouldnt that add more validity to my point?


In my opinion yes.
However to those who are being ageist in this thread it wouldn't make an iota fo difference. To them you would just be another snotty nosed kid.


Well I am a snot nosed kid :P

General reply not to miss, the thing is that for some people BDSM/kink whatever is the frosting, the fact that they dont take that element seriously doesnt mitigate them having a 'serious' relationship. People like things to differant degrees, for example I enjoy photography, I have my digital camera and get out when I can, other people have studios and fancy editing equipment, does that mean that my enjoyment is less important to theirs? Does that mean i cant lead a fulfilling life outside of my interest in photography? Nope i dont think so.

I mean for me D/s is just something I am, a form of relationship that I lean to because I get the most out of it, that doesnt mean I think my way is better than anyone elses. I just do what i do to make my life as good as i can do, as does everyone else. Saying that everyone should 'do' BDSM their way is like me saying that everyone should enjoy photography.



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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 11:05:27 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
...It is the case that many people are followers or want to seem like they are leaders.

Everyone with two neurons to rub together is a follower sometimes and a leader other times.  For instance, when I was brand new to this whole D/s thing and totally utterly and completely clueless, I sought out advice from people I deemed competent.  I seldom do so anymore.  In the same situation but a different "me", I behaved differently.

quote:

Not only that, but most people want to be in the best and be seen in/to be the best.
I make no bones about it.  I want to be the best and to be seen as the best.  I'm just fussy about who the audience is I'm playing too.  Having only my wife's opinion to worry about really simplifies the problem *laughs*.

quote:

If it wasn't, then there would not be a need for any seperate movements, no need for the whole label debate, no need to suggest that one thing was/is better than another.  Particularly if those people have either been around for a while or if they are new to the whole place.
I'm going to have to disagree with this.  In my assessment, the "label debate" has more to do with the overall mindset of the BDSM community than anyone trying to be better than anyone else.  It is also definitely my opinion that given some context, one thing IS better than another and it's yet another BDSM-ism to suggest that everything is equal all the time.


_____________________________

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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 11:13:37 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

I'm going to have to disagree with this.  In my assessment, the "label debate" has more to do with the overall mindset of the BDSM community than anyone trying to be better than anyone else.

But part of that mind set is that 'my way is better than yours' no matter what the motive behind it.
 
quote:

It is also definitely my opinion that given some context, one thing IS better than another and it's yet another BDSM-ism to suggest that everything is equal all the time.

I'm going to disagree with this. Whats right for one is not always right for everyone.


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 11:14:46 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

Well I am a snot nosed kid :P

Lol

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 11:16:54 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Everyone with two neurons to rub together is a follower sometimes and a leader other times.  For instance, when I was brand new to this whole D/s thing and totally utterly and completely clueless, I sought out advice from people I deemed competent.  I seldom do so anymore.  In the same situation but a different "me", I behaved differently.


'Sometimes' being the operative word here.  But there are people who have a need and a desire to belong all the time.  So they create some sort of community or lifestyle as if all the people involved do the same shit.  Thing is, they don't and they never have.

quote:

I make no bones about it.  I want to be the best and to be seen as the best.  I'm just fussy about who the audience is I'm playing too.  Having only my wife's opinion to worry about really simplifies the problem *laughs*.


... gotta love that audience...

quote:

I'm going to have to disagree with this.  In my assessment, the "label debate" has more to do with the overall mindset of the BDSM community than anyone trying to be better than anyone else.  It is also definitely my opinion that given some context, one thing IS better than another and it's yet another BDSM-ism to suggest that everything is equal all the time.


And there is that community thang again.  The minute people make it a 'community' it kind of makes it into something that everyone agrees on.  But people don't agree and that is the key here.  People can't even agree to what BDSM means, let alone whether the old ways were less about sex than the new.  I do agree that one thing is better than another, but that comes down the individuals and that is not a community issue but a personal one.  Anything is equal, it's just that everything has equal validity in personal areas, not BDSM.  In BDSM as a whole, just like everything else, it's all equally unequal.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 12:20:20 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Such transitions is simply the nature of the beast in every human endevour. Growth and as such, new view points and foci is both good and healthy and bad. I believe that what is important is to recognise that:
  • New people will mean new ideas and even new ways of doing things.
  • Growth means that the old ways are tested against newer ideas which is not bad either as it allows us to reledarn the old ideas and ways and then decide for ourselves what suits us and our dynamic the best.
  • Old is not necessarily bad or no good. It just means that old ideas and dynamics come from an earlier time when things were less complicated and less known openly to the great unwashed masses.
  • The worst mistake is to sweep out all the old ideas and lock them away. At worst, it means we will make the same mistakes those old ones made. Remember the past and the old ways and learn from their mistakes for in time, our ways will become old ways too for future generations. At best, there will be those drawn to the old ways and bring fresh blood to them and thus perpetuate good traditions.


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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 12:51:12 PM   
WhiplashSmile2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2

Ok... I'm still trying to figure out how SEX is not about Control and Service anyways.  lol...


Awwww.... now don;t getting all logical on us all now!
 
the.dark.

 
I'm still trying to figure this one out, I can't ever recall having sex without control or service involved... Mmmmmm....  is that the so called vanilla sex everybody talks about? 

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 1:50:19 PM   
Hisunfoldinglily


Posts: 55
Joined: 1/30/2008
Status: offline 		This is a concept Mmany Wwe meet have trouble with. Wwe do not equate this lifestyle with sex. It is a mindset for Uus. Yes, He does sexual play with others. But that is what it is to Him. Play. But there is no actual penetration. Only with me. It definitely has enhanced Oour intimate life. But my mindset is not around BDSM and sex. It is about my slavery to Him.

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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 1:57:15 PM   
ThundersCry


Posts: 892
Status: offline 		I suppose it all depends upon, if your fortunate to have multiple groups in your area...what it means to one group may not mean to another group...
 
 
Oh well...I never played well by the *norms* rules....anyways..
 
 
A good topic...

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/17/2008 3:05:03 PM   
Icarys


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And there is that community thang again.  The minute people make it a 'community' it kind of makes it into something that everyone agrees on.  But people don't agree and that is the key here.  People can't even agree to what BDSM means, let alone whether the old ways were less about sex than the new.  I do agree that one thing is better than another, but that comes down the individuals and that is not a community issue but a personal one.  Anything is equal, it's just that everything has equal validity in personal areas, not BDSM.  In BDSM as a whole, just like everything else, it's all equally unequal.
 
the.dark.


Community doesn't negate the fact that we all don't see eye to eye. Even in communities there are different ends of the spectrum when it comes to beliefs. I may not like some people here but that doesn't negate them for me unless they are aholes in my mind.  We are all part of a community. Some I may choose to separate myself from but it doesn't change anything.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 11/17/2008 3:08:58 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/18/2008 7:44:25 PM   
slavegirljoy


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From: North Carolina, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissIsis

Has this lifestyle really come to be more about sex & how many times you can make someone come, rather than about the many nuances involved in gaining the trust & commitment towards one another? 


For me, BDSM has never been a "Lifestyle" but, B&D/S&M has been a part of my life since i was 21 (31 years, now).  BDSM has played a very important part in some of my serious intimate relationships with men over the years.
 
And, yes, ever since my ex-husband first introduced me to bondage, discipline and rough sex, BDSM has certainly been about S-E-X, for me.  Dominance and submission, on the other hand, has always been about power and control, within my relationships, with or without the B&D/S&M.  But, for me, B&D/S&M is, and always has been, about kinky sex and nothing more.  But, like i said, i've never been in "the lifestyle" so, i really don't know whether it's about sex and how many times you can make someone come or not.  i just know what BDSM is for me and that hasn't changed over the past 3 decades.
 
joy
Master David's erotic-domestic slave

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Don't ask yourself what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. ~Dr. Howard Thurman

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/18/2008 9:31:10 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Take a bit of real history about the lifestyle and you'll find three separate branches that have crossed paths and shared spaces and yet continue to develop separately.

One of those branches includes the swingers groups. Many if not most Swingers Clubs had a dungeon room in addition to their other rooms. They develped small groups of folks who tended to spend more of their time in the dungeon room than in the matress room. So in the old days would you assume that their environment would have led to a very open sexual attitude? I certainly would.

The second branch was the professionals. It included Pro Dominants of both genders as well as the photographers and the pornographers, the performance artists and the fetish models and writters. Then you have to count their various followings, groupies and customers. Well lets see would you expect that there would be a very open or maybe a reactionary attitude or maybe maintaining a professional attitude about sexual contact?  I think some of each. With the Pros tending towards non sexual since including sex would put them on the other side of the laws against prostitution. Photographers and Pornographers who knows some would have a very sexual charge others it would be just a job.

Last but not least the Leather crowd, considering the dates I would contend that depending on the population of the other 2 groups the Leather groups would tend towards the perspective of the prevelent one intheir area but also some groups would be having a reactionary path. But seems to me that Bath Houses, The Catacombs, Leather Bars, and such venues would house those for whom sexual adventure was high on their priority list. Yet I have run across differing accounts of how important sex was to different people in the "Old Guard" time period. For some it was very important for others the service was central to their experience.

So I would contend that the varying influences of these three branches of the family tree have on a specific area/ community/ region/ group of folks would be a pretty good indication of how much sexual influence there is or is not in that group.

Groups that were formed by for or around Pros in the 70's 80's and 90's would tend towards non sexual, because that was what they held as a core value. Sex itself made BDSM unprofitable and illegal for them. SO they passed on their values. Groups that were formed around Leather and swingers groups would tend towards sexual activity being included, how included I would assume would depend on the p[erspectives of the folks who shapped the community most in that area years beyond memory ago.




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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/18/2008 9:48:27 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Archer,
 
Your historical perspective never fails to amaze me.  You add such a wealth of knowledge to the discussion, especially for people who are unaware of the history of BDSM.
 
Also, i would just like to add that people are individuals, and even if they belong to a particular group, unless they choose to abide by a very strict protocol, they can and often do include elements from various "lifestyles" or "persuasions" into their own particular, individual lifestyle, such as swinging, nudism, vegetarianism, etc.  So, just because some people might enjoy a variety of activities, along with BDSM, that doesn't necessarily mean that BDSM is being turned into a swinging nudist vegetarian sex club.
 
joy
Master David's erotic-domestic slave

_____________________________

Don't ask yourself what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. ~Dr. Howard Thurman

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Old way lifestyle vs new - 11/19/2008 5:52:18 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		If you are up to some pretty dry reading you cna get likely the very best researched history of fetish in the US online. It's a very academic phd level dissertation by Robert V Bienvenu II PhD. It's available online in PDF format (but it''s a huge file so download it when you have alot of time).

http://americanfetish.net

I was lucky and was gifted with a CD copy of it several years ago.

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Profile   Post #: 100
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