RE: A semi philosophical question.

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DoctorJeep -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 1:04:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: DoctorJeep To the Doms: Which play is better and more satisfying to you? Do you prefer to have the totally disposable little toy? Or, do you find that breaking in one that you actually care for as a person is more of a challenge and produces more of a gain? I suppose that the way that I phrased that indicates my preference... I stopped playing with toys when I became an adult. I prefer to have a real human slave, not a toy. quote: To both: Obviously both have thier place depending on the scene and the appetite, but which really makes it for you? Only if you "scene". There is no place at all for a disposable toy in my life. My time is too valuable to waste on that. And why on earth would I engage in a "scene" when my real life is so incredible? To what purpose would I put "fantasy"? Inosfar as my appetites... she is mine and serves all my appetities quite nicely. She is a squirming bundle of willing female flesh in my arrms whenever I want, no question about it.. but the idea that I would consider the most astonishingly wonderful thing in my life either "disposable" or "a toy" is simply laughable. Tell you what though, the moment I come to the conclusion that I could easily replace her, I'll agree that she's disposable laughs. We are much on the same wavelegnth. Happy times for you then.

BlakkReignn -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 1:19:22 PM)
without the mental, spiritual or emotional connection ( and understanding that each holds its own merit) or at least a fundamental trust bond...the toy thing gets extremely boring and redundant...so for me; a deeper connection with a TPE or long term BDSM relationship is more gratifying...yet, the occasional scene play or the like is quite entertaining for toy sub/s playtime, roles, etc...and it is exciting to let go the deeper connection with the main sub/s and engage as simply toy/fetish... Blakk

MrHarsh -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 1:50:20 PM)
I have really mixed feeling here that honestly struggle with. I really enjoy the short term use-and-abuse aspect of D/s play. There are times when I really want to find myself a sub, use her, and be done with her.... and honestly, I think that many of the subs I've been with in this way wanted the same. Yet at the same time, I understand that in a relationship there needs to be something more. When it's not just a "night of play" and turns into something more, the D takes on a much large role than just a sexual one. The D needs to look out for and care for the s - something like caring for a pet, or a child, or perhaps another family member who needs "looking after." It's part of the responsibility of the D. I hope that doesn't offend anyone, but I believe the comparisons to pets and children is fairly on target for some. I know that many folk enjoy "pet play" or the "Daddy-girl" relationship; those folk may be expressing these same ideas in a different way. My last sub had a perspective that I think is illustrative. She said that when engaging in "certain types of sex" that you need to either have a very good relationship with the person, or just not give a crap. I think she's dead on and that is the idea we're trying to wrap our head around in this thread. Sometimes in order to fully explore your kink one needs to just not care about what the other person thinks, or worry about them liking it. That allows you to get in touch with your inner sexual fiend without worrying about being judged (and accepted or rejected) by the rest of the world. By not caring at all, you don't have to face their opinion of you the next day. Sometimes we reach that same state by being only with people we trust strongly, so when know that when we reveal that inner sex fiend we will not be judged (and still loved in the morning). In this case, it's safe because you know that the next day you will still be accepted.

BlackPhx -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 2:05:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee ~fr~ i have played with truely sadistic artists and i have played with men who own toys...What an artist can draw out of me in 2 hours is leagues apart from what the other can. If i believe him to be accurate, intuitive, perceptive and willing to use what information he has to better the scene as a whole...i can fly as high as he wishes to take me and crash gracefully to the floor at his feet. (i cling desparately to the graceful part of that statement, as i am generally halfway passed out at that point[;)]) i dont need to know the name of his favorite pet he had as a child and the disposition of said pet to enjoy him beating my ass to a pulp...nor does he need to know the name of my prom date and whether i put out and what happened the next day, to accept his punishment. I have thought about this section more than a bit persephonee and decided I want to respond to your post, but boy am I going to confuse things a bit so hang in there and try to follow my thinking. (Good Luck) As a bottom/masochist.. I am pretty much disposable, well I do like being able to walk away after wards but you know what I mean. I just need to know that the top knows what he is doing...and that happens like you only after I have seen what he does with others. I don't just walk up to someone I don't know in a dungeon or eagerly jump to play with such a person. I have to have some knowledge of the person. Generally I get a pretty good feel for who they are via talking before hand or while watching them play with others. My flesh is pretty precious to me and I ain't all that disposable. As a Slave, I know my Master well. While few who meet us would take me for one, his desires and needs in and out of the bedroom are always at the forefront of my mind. Please do not confuse submissive with slave however. I am not in the least submissive to his frustration at times, but I can in the right circumstances play one briefly. It is a hard part for me to sustain for any length of time, because the very personality traits that allowed me to survive my youth cause me to rebel against any sign of weakness or submissive. Then there is me the Sadist. I have played with "disposables" and inevitably it is for that person only. I get very little from it as there is no "smell" of fear, excitement or connection for me. I can't just torture them and get my jollies that way because a large proponent of that comes from knowing them mentally and their triggers, and playing with them like a mad organist, teasing the tune from them and heightening their experience as well as my own. It is extremely frustrating because I HAVE to consider their limits instead of setting them for them. They have not had time to know me or me them and build the trust that no matter how far I take them it will not be beyond what they can bear or that I will bring them back. This is what it is like for me as as Masochist and as a Sadist when things are Right, when I am working with someone I know and neither is disposable. Dance with the Devil by Poenkitten (copyright 2000) http://www.t3wd.org/hamiltonz/dance.htm This is what you do as well. Intuition is little more than knowledge that you have gathered from intangible observations and put together. The artist is adept at gathering that information without you even knowing it, reading every movement, every sigh, every tremble, and drawing the next. It cannot be done with someone who considers themselves a disposable because they are generally in it only for their own needs and selfish about them. Expend on me all your power and skill, give me what I need and let me walk away. But you are not selfish, you yield yourself to their hands and give as good as you take, perhaps more than you take. Feedback... a circuit completed. You and your Partner..even if only for an hour, they are a partner, not just a life support for a whip..and that, my friend is the difference. Viva la Difference poenkitten who doesn't even think of a waitress as disposable, though she doesn't have to know her life story (YMMV)

DoctorJeep -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 2:38:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrHarsh I have really mixed feeling here that honestly struggle with. I really enjoy the short term use-and-abuse aspect of D/s play. There are times when I really want to find myself a sub, use her, and be done with her.... and honestly, I think that many of the subs I've been with in this way wanted the same. Yet at the same time, I understand that in a relationship there needs to be something more. When it's not just a "night of play" and turns into something more, the D takes on a much large role than just a sexual one. The D needs to look out for and care for the s - something like caring for a pet, or a child, or perhaps another family member who needs "looking after." It's part of the responsibility of the D. I hope that doesn't offend anyone, but I believe the comparisons to pets and children is fairly on target for some. I know that many folk enjoy "pet play" or the "Daddy-girl" relationship; those folk may be expressing these same ideas in a different way. My last sub had a perspective that I think is illustrative. She said that when engaging in "certain types of sex" that you need to either have a very good relationship with the person, or just not give a crap. I think she's dead on and that is the idea we're trying to wrap our head around in this thread. Sometimes in order to fully explore your kink one needs to just not care about what the other person thinks, or worry about them liking it. That allows you to get in touch with your inner sexual fiend without worrying about being judged (and accepted or rejected) by the rest of the world. By not caring at all, you don't have to face their opinion of you the next day. Sometimes we reach that same state by being only with people we trust strongly, so when know that when we reveal that inner sex fiend we will not be judged (and still loved in the morning). In this case, it's safe because you know that the next day you will still be accepted. I think this is very well written. It is what I meant by "there is a time for both" earlier upstream. For me though, (and this has been my personal experience, not to generalize, or to offend those who seem a bit cranky) I find that with the disposable harsh play, is by definition fleeting. I have only found the sustained level you were speaking of in the second case.

DoctorJeep -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 2:40:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlackPhx quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee ~fr~ i have played with truely sadistic artists and i have played with men who own toys...What an artist can draw out of me in 2 hours is leagues apart from what the other can. If i believe him to be accurate, intuitive, perceptive and willing to use what information he has to better the scene as a whole...i can fly as high as he wishes to take me and crash gracefully to the floor at his feet. (i cling desparately to the graceful part of that statement, as i am generally halfway passed out at that point[;)]) i dont need to know the name of his favorite pet he had as a child and the disposition of said pet to enjoy him beating my ass to a pulp...nor does he need to know the name of my prom date and whether i put out and what happened the next day, to accept his punishment. I have thought about this section more than a bit persephonee and decided I want to respond to your post, but boy am I going to confuse things a bit so hang in there and try to follow my thinking. (Good Luck) As a bottom/masochist.. I am pretty much disposable, well I do like being able to walk away after wards but you know what I mean. I just need to know that the top knows what he is doing...and that happens like you only after I have seen what he does with others. I don't just walk up to someone I don't know in a dungeon or eagerly jump to play with such a person. I have to have some knowledge of the person. Generally I get a pretty good feel for who they are via talking before hand or while watching them play with others. My flesh is pretty precious to me and I ain't all that disposable. As a Slave, I know my Master well. While few who meet us would take me for one, his desires and needs in and out of the bedroom are always at the forefront of my mind. Please do not confuse submissive with slave however. I am not in the least submissive to his frustration at times, but I can in the right circumstances play one briefly. It is a hard part for me to sustain for any length of time, because the very personality traits that allowed me to survive my youth cause me to rebel against any sign of weakness or submissive. Then there is me the Sadist. I have played with "disposables" and inevitably it is for that person only. I get very little from it as there is no "smell" of fear, excitement or connection for me. I can't just torture them and get my jollies that way because a large proponent of that comes from knowing them mentally and their triggers, and playing with them like a mad organist, teasing the tune from them and heightening their experience as well as my own. It is extremely frustrating because I HAVE to consider their limits instead of setting them for them. They have not had time to know me or me them and build the trust that no matter how far I take them it will not be beyond what they can bear or that I will bring them back. This is what it is like for me as as Masochist and as a Sadist when things are Right, when I am working with someone I know and neither is disposable. Dance with the Devil by Poenkitten (copyright 2000) http://www.t3wd.org/hamiltonz/dance.htm This is what you do as well. Intuition is little more than knowledge that you have gathered from intangible observations and put together. The artist is adept at gathering that information without you even knowing it, reading every movement, every sigh, every tremble, and drawing the next. It cannot be done with someone who considers themselves a disposable because they are generally in it only for their own needs and selfish about them. Expend on me all your power and skill, give me what I need and let me walk away. But you are not selfish, you yield yourself to their hands and give as good as you take, perhaps more than you take. Feedback... a circuit completed. You and your Partner..even if only for an hour, they are a partner, not just a life support for a whip..and that, my friend is the difference. Viva la Difference poenkitten who doesn't even think of a waitress as disposable, though she doesn't have to know her life story (YMMV) I hear you completely. I think you have very eloquently expressed yourself. It was a pleasure to read this

KnightofMists -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 7:20:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alandraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: justgemmie however, there are times i love to be someOne else's play toy ~~ "hurt me, use me while i get lost in what is happening and You do what You want* ~~ it's also just the best! depends on my mood and the Top that's gonna let me be His disposible toy to "chew up and spit out." in that situation, i don't want any emotional connection anyway; i belong to Dauntless and He gives me all that. i just want to be a bottom for awhile. I understand very much what you are saying here... I have the emotional connection with my Lord and Kyra....but there is some times that I really need to feel like a "Play Toy" The one thing I have found with being someones "play toy "with no emotional connection is a totally different play then that with an emotional connection. Being a "toy" I react in a different way... more manipulating the Top through my reactions, both visually and with sounds... I find when I am given to someone to use as a toy... I feel in control of the play, and not because I tell them what to do or set limits.... because I control the top with how I act and react. This has happened any time I have played with anyone other then my Lord. I have been given to Tops I know and those that I have not know... and I come away from the play in both cases with the same feeling... of being in control and feeling that everyone in the session was fuffilled by the session. Do I feel more fufilled during one play over the other?.... No... it depends on the mood with in me. For someone to say one way is more or better is just them putting themselves on a pedestal. Knight's Alandra HOLY SHIT... go to work for the day and this thread jumps a couple pages.. and then I read this. I have to mark this date down... I don't remember the last time this slut posted!!!

KnightofMists -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 7:40:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Personally, I am reminded of something a very smart person said........... "Never bring a butter knife to a duel." Of course I've been around here to watch a few duels also. mmmmmmm do you think I should just start bringing a butter knife instead?.... as a sign of compassion and fair play? editted to add this additional thought.... the Crazy Bunny and the Crappy Dom haven't even bother to post to this thread... good thing too...... it wouldn't of been a dual.. it would of been a firing squad.

justgemmie -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 7:52:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: alandraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: justgemmie however, there are times i love to be someOne else's play toy ~~ "hurt me, use me while i get lost in what is happening and You do what You want* ~~ it's also just the best! depends on my mood and the Top that's gonna let me be His disposible toy to "chew up and spit out." in that situation, i don't want any emotional connection anyway; i belong to Dauntless and He gives me all that. i just want to be a bottom for awhile. I understand very much what you are saying here... I have the emotional connection with my Lord and Kyra....but there is some times that I really need to feel like a "Play Toy" The one thing I have found with being someones "play toy "with no emotional connection is a totally different play then that with an emotional connection. Being a "toy" I react in a different way... more manipulating the Top through my reactions, both visually and with sounds... I find when I am given to someone to use as a toy... I feel in control of the play, and not because I tell them what to do or set limits.... because I control the top with how I act and react. This has happened any time I have played with anyone other then my Lord. I have been given to Tops I know and those that I have not know... and I come away from the play in both cases with the same feeling... of being in control and feeling that everyone in the session was fuffilled by the session. Do I feel more fufilled during one play over the other?.... No... it depends on the mood with in me. For someone to say one way is more or better is just them putting themselves on a pedestal. Knight's Alandra HOLY SHIT... go to work for the day and this thread jumps a couple pages.. and then I read this. I have to mark this date down... I don't remember the last time this slut posted!!! greetings alandra - and thank you. it's always nice to know (at least for me) that i'm not the only one to be a certain way or do a certain thing :) <<thread hijack for a second>> KoM .... way back when You gave me some advice which i took to heart. You may not remember it, but i do. thank You. gemmie

KnightofMists -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 7:58:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrHarsh I have really mixed feeling here that honestly struggle with. I really enjoy the short term use-and-abuse aspect of D/s play. There are times when I really want to find myself a sub, use her, and be done with her.... and honestly, I think that many of the subs I've been with in this way wanted the same. It doesn't have to be an either or choice. It can be more choice of apply the right tool to the right situation. or to say it another way.... Do X when it is appropriate for the situation and Do Y when it is appropriate for the situation. There are individuals that very much want to be used and thrown away. A Dominant I know met a long time Leather Top that would bottom from time to time and it would indeed be a sitaution where he would be used and thrown away afterwards. I have meet a few individuals that find a sense of enjoyment and fulfillment from these kind of situations. It is also possible to find a person that fills that desire for a enduring connection and many do exactly that. I myself have two girls that I am deeply connected with. Kyra who has little desire for the fleeting moments of instant gratifications and Alandra who has in the past and I expect in the future found some intense pleasure from those fleeting moments. These are my girls and they provide alot of enjoyment in many ways... but they can never give me the enjoyment that can be gain from a fleeting encounter... It's different and satisfies much different desires. A person can have one or the other... or both. Or maybe do one then another or hell any type of combination you can think of. There is no one way to do it... But when I want to hammer a nail.. I don't reach for the screwdriver. When I want that fleeting encounter... I don't reach for one of my girls. One can also savor those fleeting moments for a very long time... so in many ways.. there are not so fleeting.. just the relationship is. But once a moment has past.. it is gone... hopefully it was a moment enjoyed to it's fullest

KnightofMists -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 8:01:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justgemmie <<thread hijack for a second>> KoM .... way back when You gave me some advice which i took to heart. You may not remember it, but i do. thank You. gemmie well dear.. it was a fleeting moment where I used you and threw you away w Regardless.. I am happy that you are finding your way... it is such a pleasure to watch people be happy!!!

KnightofMists -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 8:22:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee mmm...butter please....im laying money on my man KoM...and that is not a shameless plug to be his paint and canvas....or mebbe it is....[:D] hey... marie is crawling all the way to me just for me to spit on her... so dear... the standard has been set... start crawling!!!

NuevaVida -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 8:52:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists the Crazy Bunny and the Crappy Dom haven't even bother to post to this thread... good thing too...... it wouldn't of been a dual.. it would of been a firing squad. OK now THAT'S funny! Where the heck is that crazy bunny anyway???

Midnght -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 8:55:57 PM)
Very interesting thread here. I feel that what you think may not exist is actually there with a toy. This movie quote puts it better than I feel I really ever could. Because in my opinion this is what you get from play with toys if that's the terms going to be used here. The quote: Circa, Pulp Fiction Jules: Look, just because I don't be givin' no man a foot massage don't make it right for Marsellus to throw Antwone into a glass motherfuckin' house, fuckin' up the way the nigger talks. Motherfucker do that shit to me, he better paralyze my ass, 'cause I'll kill the motherfucker, know what I'm sayin'? Vincent: I ain't saying it's right. But you're saying a foot massage don't mean nothing, and I'm saying it does. Now look, I've given a million ladies a million foot massages, and they all meant something. We act like they don't, but they do, and that's what's so fucking cool about them. There's a sensuous thing going on where you don't talk about it, but you know it, she knows it, fucking Marsellus knew it, and Antwone should have fucking better known better. I mean, that's his fucking wife, man. He can't be expected to have a sense of humor about that shit. You know what I'm saying? Jules: That's an interesting point. Come on, let's get into character.

KnightofMists -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 8:56:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida OK now THAT'S funny! Where the heck is that crazy bunny anyway??? Not sure... but if he is not careful.. I will have to revoke his Asshole membership... a shame too.. he worked hard to achieve it... one of my brightest students too

persephonee -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 9:03:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee mmm...butter please....im laying money on my man KoM...and that is not a shameless plug to be his paint and canvas....or mebbe it is....[:D] hey... marie is crawling all the way to me just for me to spit on her... so dear... the standard has been set... start crawling!!! awww chit...damn the knee injury anyway....drat....that marie is always trying to out slut me.....tell me this...how thuddy can you make spit anyway??[:D]

KnightofMists -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 9:13:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee .....tell me this...how thuddy can you make spit anyway??[:D] you don't really think that I would make the beautiful marie crawl all the way here and just spit on her do you? oh no believe me.. any girl that crawls all this way will be well used before I spit on them and cast them aside w

NuevaVida -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 9:22:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida OK now THAT'S funny! Where the heck is that crazy bunny anyway??? Not sure... but if he is not careful.. I will have to revoke his Asshole membership... a shame too.. he worked hard to achieve it... one of my brightest students too You mean he learned this stuff from you??? [8D]

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 9:22:43 PM)
Oh barf...take it to IMs where it belongs! That's where the REAL cyber magic happens.

DoctorJeep -> RE: A semi philosophical question. (11/19/2008 10:02:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Personally, I am reminded of something a very smart person said........... "Never bring a butter knife to a duel." Of course I've been around here to watch a few duels also. mmmmmmm do you think I should just start bringing a butter knife instead?.... as a sign of compassion and fair play? editted to add this additional thought.... the Crazy Bunny and the Crappy Dom haven't even bother to post to this thread... good thing too...... it wouldn't of been a dual.. it would of been a firing squad. Oh my, the ignorance and pomposity of your posts is astonishing. First off, dual means two at a time as in dual citizenship. You meant to say duel. While we are at it, the whole "feather to knock down a wall" thing... I kept thinking about that old show Kung Fu. "Grasshopper, knock down that wall with this feather." I had tried to let this slide, I actually erased that thought originally, but after all of this bragging, foolish, pompous spam from you, I have to say that any Dom who feels the need to brag about his subs or his "students" as brazenly as this, and only for the purpose of staking out a futile claim by spamming a meaningless thread - in order to mark territory like my dogs pee on fences - is truly overcompensating for something. Are you honestly claiming a victory in a fight that never was? Firing squad... Really, I am not impressed. Sorry. I do not fear your "genius." Your insults are pointless. What, you need the support of friends to argue for yourself? You have shown nothing but the most sincere contempt in what you have written repeatedly. That is fine, yet what you write is just so silly that it, like your bluster, is impossible to take seriously. Generally the sign of losing a debate is retreat into such silliness. And now my dear friend, I am certain that you will spam away - having the "deep intellectualism" of you screeds questioned so will no doubt infuriate you. Your subs will spam away. I will simply ignore it. Cheers! Until next thread.

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