RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked?

RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (Full Version)

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NihilusZero -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 12:11:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag However, how exactly someone goes about that can make all the difference in the world. Being too blunt, too direct, or too aggressive can ruin the whole process. Which is an interesting thing to think about...since it will imply that some people, through no actual character flaw of their own other than propensity to delve into certain things quicker than most, screw themselves over (effectively) because of not having an inner 'clock' that goes at the same speed as most everyone else. quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag Some topics shouldn't be seriously discussed until after other issues have been addressed. Put another way, you wouldn't discuss what kind of cake to have at the wedding with someone you just asked out and haven't had the first date with yet. Its moving too fast and getting events out of order. Instead, we go on the date, we talk to the other person and get to know them. During that, we start to figure out what their goals are, how well that matches with ours, whether we really like them or not or if we just want to fuck them and move on. If it clicks, we move on in the process, we build comfort and trust, we escalate attraction, next thing you know you're picking out cake. But odds are you don't get there without taking all the steps. You might, but its going against the odds. You know...it's not that I don't necessarily agree with this process...but something about it doesn't sit right with me. It's as if we're engaging in all these little formality games just to assuage our own hesitance to delve into things. Obviously, I would think the type of wedding cake might be not quite as high on a priority list...but if someone really needed to get a certain type of cake (odd as it sounds), shouldn't it be something brought up sooner than later? I understand the process of enjoying the initial courtship for what it is without having all these potential clouds of expectation looming overhead...but I wonder how much of it is windowdressing. Maybe this comes down to the fact that I've never been a "dater". shrug

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 12:31:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag Yes and no... there's a subtle point to be made here. On the one hand, yeah, you need to figure out if the other person is going in generally the same direction as you. However, how exactly someone goes about that can make all the difference in the world. Being too blunt, too direct, or too aggressive can ruin the whole process. Some topics shouldn't be seriously discussed until after other issues have been addressed. Put another way, you wouldn't discuss what kind of cake to have at the wedding with someone you just asked out and haven't had the first date with yet. Its moving too fast and getting events out of order. Instead, we go on the date, we talk to the other person and get to know them. During that, we start to figure out what their goals are, how well that matches with ours, whether we really like them or not or if we just want to fuck them and move on. If it clicks, we move on in the process, we build comfort and trust, we escalate attraction, next thing you know you're picking out cake. But odds are you don't get there without taking all the steps. You might, but its going against the odds. Perhaps the issue here, at least for me, has to do with goals. Finding a servant for our household isn't a "romance" thing for me... it's not a 'date'... so if I sugar-coat or withhold information to protect someone's "sensibilities", I am, in essence, setting them up for failure. Honestly, I wouldn't withhold information from someone I was dating, either, but let's just stick to the subject at hand... I think a lot of folks are in this for different reasons than I am. I'm in it for the authority and service exchange. Because of that, when I meet someone, I talk to them about what it means to me to be part of an authority-exchange relationship. The only reason to be -having- this talk is to find out whether the person is suited to serving with us -- whether it suits them to deal with two straightforward, direct, blunt, domineering women, or whether they are better suited to a more 'delicate' situation (which means they won't survive long with us). We will definitely talk about the chain of events -- for two reasons. One is because a lot of people come to us with the expectation that we'll take them right away to live with us. The second is because there are some who really don't ever -want- to be live-in servants, and that is something we need to know up front... not because we want to change their minds in -either- case... We respect that people want what they want... but because, if what we offer isn't what they're looking for, both sides have the right to know that as soon as possible in the relationship, before a lot of investment is laid down. Honestly, I'm not looking to "make friends" with the folks I am 'vetting' as potential servants. KoM's statement that, if we accept that things should be presented directly up front we might as well say "Bitch Kneel and Serve Me" is, in my mind, a diversion from the topic. Rude is rude. We're not talking about 'rude' here. We're talking about presenting expectations to people whom one is -meeting- to set up an expectations-based relationship. If someone wants to pussy-foot around certain subjects until they've invested weeks or months into an unsuitable person, yay for them.... for me, I'll be direct up front and save both sides of the equation the hassle of finding oneself emotionally or intellectually tied to an inappropriate situation.

Padriag -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 12:35:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag However, how exactly someone goes about that can make all the difference in the world. Being too blunt, too direct, or too aggressive can ruin the whole process. Which is an interesting thing to think about...since it will imply that some people, through no actual character flaw of their own other than propensity to delve into certain things quicker than most, screw themselves over (effectively) because of not having an inner 'clock' that goes at the same speed as most everyone else. Happens all the time. Guy approaches girl, guy strikes up converastion, guy goes for the phone number too soon and instead crashes and burns. What went wrong... guy didn't spend a little time establishing attraction, comfort and trust first... girl had no reason to give him her phone number. quote: You know...it's not that I don't necessarily agree with this process...but something about it doesn't sit right with me. It's as if we're engaging in all these little formality games just to assuage our own hesitance to delve into things. Pretty much, yes. People most often don't make rational choices, they make emotional choices... just human nature. So... submissive male is attracted to possible relationship... he likes the idea of it... he expresses interests... but he's still developing trust and comfort... then BAM... he gets hit with the big questions... internally he's struggling because his feelings are telling him he's got no reason to make that commitment. Why doesn't he have a reason? There are all those wonderful benefits they offer. Because most people don't make choices about relationships based on rational cost-benefit analysis... they make those relationship choices based on our feelings. So why doesn't he have a reason... because there wasn't enough comfort and trust yet. That's where it all went wrong.

ShiftedJewel -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 12:48:03 PM)
I told myself that I wasn't going to post to this thread but it seems a little out of hand now. Let me clarify a few things. First, when he first approached me I told him what I am looking for in a sub/slave type person. I didn't hide the fact that I don't work, neither does twice, and Scooter is going to retire soon. We've worked long and hard to get to the point where we can just pick up and take off for a month or so whenever we feel like it. Because of that we were looking specifically for someone that was able to not work outside the home. Ok... he had no problem with that, he still wanted to move forward. I also informed him (as I do everyone that contacts me) that we are all smokers.... he is not... amazingly enough he didn't have a problem with that and wanted to move forward. I also told him we are bikers (although that doesn't define us completely), he's never been on a motorcycle... but that's ok, he wanted to move forward. I honestly did everything I could to be honest, straight forward and give him every opportunity to say no, it isn't right for him. He wanted to move forward. At no point did we suffer from the illusion that this was the real deal, that there was a serious relationship happening here and we were not making long term plans... I simply told him what I was looking for and the goals I hoped to eventually attain. There was no miscommunication, there was no misleading with false hope, it was the sprout of a possibility and he was in complete control of the communication the whole time. At no point did I push my wants and needs on him, at no point did anyone make him feel like it was this or else. The only issue was that he was stuck on this one thing... that damned hole in the ground as twice said. We comforted, we consoled, we compromised all to no avail. Yes, there is an issue there that hasn't been addressed... I absolutely agree!! But we can't address it if he can't get past that hole in the ground!! Hell, we don't even know for sure what the issue is! Our communication was not flawed. If I met someone and found them to be a good fit, great potential and they wanted to get involved with us and didn't find out until a year later that in reality they had to leave the country in a few months... I'd be pissed, this is need to know information!! People need to know that I/we cannot accept someone that simply refuses to work towards becoming debt free and able to stop working in as short a time as possible. If they can work from home, or from a laptop on the road... not a problem. But the business we are starting will require that we make long trips and spend a lot of time away from home and I'm sorry, but I don't see the need for a sub/slave that will be working 90% of the time I'll be awake! That also is need to know information that I am always going to share right up front. *Jewel*

Padriag -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 12:53:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW Perhaps the issue here, at least for me, has to do with goals. Finding a servant for our household isn't a "romance" thing for me... it's not a 'date'... so if I sugar-coat or withhold information to protect someone's "sensibilities", I am, in essence, setting them up for failure. If you want a servant with no emotional connection... hire somebody and give them a paycheck. If you want someone from within this lifestyle to serve you... give them an emotional paycheck. That does not mean you have to romance them, but you do still have to give them an emotional reason to be there... an emotional "paycheck". Nobody stays in any relationship unless they are getting something out of it... and for 99% of us, that's an emotional payoff. And for 99% of us, we don't get into a relationship unless we believe we are likely to get a payoff for doing so... whether that be emotional or otherwise. So, you have to inspire that potential servant, build a rapport with them, build trust, give them a reason to feel that serving you would make their life better, make them feel happy. All those feelings become their reason for serving you... their emotional paycheck. All of which means you're back to the same process... attract, build comfort, build trust, establish relationship. Its still all about how we connect with each other, and that is still about emotion. Screw up that process, move too fast, too aggressively, too much information too soon... crash and burn. Withholding some information until the appropriate stage in the relationship isn't setting anyone up for failure... its preventing information and emotional overload.

KnightofMists -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 1:20:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag All of which means you're back to the same process... attract, build comfort, build trust, establish relationship. Its still all about how we connect with each other, and that is still about emotion. Screw up that process, move too fast, too aggressively, too much information too soon... crash and burn. Withholding some information until the appropriate stage in the relationship isn't setting anyone up for failure... its preventing information and emotional overload. What I find amusing and rather concerning to a degree is some people lack of appreciation that there is a pace to relationship developement. To fast.. you going to have problems... To slow and your going to have problems. You need to find the right pace for the people involved if there is a hope of a relationship developing. Fact is, it's not just about compatiability! that so many want to hang there hat on. It's also about the pace of developement. Sometimes a person's pace is way to fast for another and the difference can never be reconciled. They indeed might be largely compatiable in alot of ways... but their pace along that path is not the same and never will be the same. I suppose that does make them incompatiable, but not in the same way has having different needs wants and desires does. Sometimes a person wants to stroll along and enjoy the scenery... sometimes a person wants to enjoy it at a faster pace....same scenery... just one wants or needs less time to take it in than another. It is obvious that the gentlemen in Jewels situation want's to address a particular issue before moving on to other issues. It is obvious she feels the issue is dealt with to her satisfaction... but it is equally obvious that is not to the gentlemans point of view. We can only speculalte what the issue is and do so is highly unfair in my view. I think a person needs to ask him Why he feels the way he does if onewants to try and reach an understanding so the relationship can move forward or... leave him at the hole... and move forward to another. It's not a complicated situations. He has his pace... he has a deal breaker... He is not wrong to have his needs and desires anymore than anyone else is. The questions becomes if a person want to have that relationship with them... do you continue to stay with them at the hole to find a solution or do you move on.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 1:31:53 PM)
quote: A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer Actually, Padriag, your tag line speaks exactly to what I was saying. There is no point in developing an emotional connection with someone who isn't going to be a good fit for our household... so I am blunt up front. There develops a connection with the people who have the potential to move forward... but why develop an emotional or intellectual connection with someone who has issues that would prevent hir from ever being a good fit for us. Frankly, even our friends are people who understand and respect our particular mode of being... our authentic natures... even the parts that are somewhat unlikeable. We may have associates and acquaintances from whom we withhold the more intense parts of our existence, but these are also people whom we are pressed into encounters with... not people we would choose to have around us if circumstances differed, and even in this case, our lack of sharing has meaning... it means "you will never have the potential to be close enough to me to know who I -really- am behind the requisite masks I must wear in your world." Perhaps this is just something we will have to abide in our separate corners on.

KnightofMists -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 1:32:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW KoM's statement that, if we accept that things should be presented directly up front we might as well say "Bitch Kneel and Serve Me" is, in my mind, a diversion from the topic maybe you can show me where I made such a comment that stated or implied that we might as well say the given statement. Because I don't recall ever making such a claim. quote: . Rude is rude. no.. rude is not rude..... the stating a given statement to someone that is a stranger is highly inappropriate. Stating it to a friend how is another person's slave is very likly highly inappropriate. It might even be highly inappropriate for many sub and slaves in any type of relationship they have with a person. However, In the right relationship there is nothing wrong with the given statement ... In fact... some individuals might find it extremely hot! and very far from being Rude. quote: We're not talking about 'rude' here. that's right.. .we talking about communicating in a manner and about things that are appropriate for the given situation (relationship) and doing it in a manner that is direct and honest without manipulation and pussy footing around. quote: We're talking about presenting expectations to people whom one is -meeting- to set up an expectations-based relationship. If someone wants to pussy-foot around certain subjects until they've invested weeks or months into an unsuitable person, yay for them.... for me, I'll be direct up front and save both sides of the equation the hassle of finding oneself emotionally or intellectually tied to an inappropriate situation. Your opinion might be that they are pussy footing around.. they might think you are being unemotional and highly presumptuous. No one pace is the right way... it's just their way! The question becomes can their way and my way come together in some fashion that allows for a healthy relationship development or should everyone go there seperate ways

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 1:36:08 PM)
quote: Original: KnightofMists I think it is more important to find out if we are going in the same direction first. Otherwise, stating to a complete stranger... "Bitch Kneel and Serve me" ... would be a very accepting mating ritual in our lifestyle. KoM, I was referring to this statement. In many ways, I think we're saying similar things about how a relationship needs to come together. Where we differ, I think, is whether one should hold one's own, authentic pace and find others who match that pace, or whether one should adjust one's pace according to the person one is in negotiations with. I may be cold and harsh -- in fact, I suspect that I probably am both of those things... but I abide by my belief that it is better to retain one's own authentic nature and see if another meshes with it than to change one's nature to suit a negotiation and find that life is uncomfortable because the expectation was set that the way one appeared during negotiations was the person that was going to be on the other side of the equation.

Padriag -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 1:39:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW There is no point in developing an emotional connection with someone who isn't going to be a good fit for our household... so I am blunt up front. And my point is that if you are too blunt up front, you may never get the opportunity to make an emotional connection of any kind... including with individuals you might have very much wanted too.

KnightofMists -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 1:45:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: Original: KnightofMists I think it is more important to find out if we are going in the same direction first. Otherwise, stating to a complete stranger... "Bitch Kneel and Serve me" ... would be a very accepting mating ritual in our lifestyle. KoM, I was referring to this statement. mmmm well that statement doesn't reflect that we might as well say it. In fact it doesn't reflect that at all. What my comments does reflect is that being blunt about what we want not matter who we are talking to would be a socially accepted practice. Fact is.. it's not socially accepted.. and it is not accepted well beyond the statement being rude... it frankly inappropriate in many situations and as such we identify it as rude but a few situations it is a very appropriate line and can be very hot or some... and even said in jest and make people laugh in others. The right words for the right situation. Wrong words can be rude... right ones can be heaven.

KnightofMists -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 1:48:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW In many ways, I think we're saying similar things about how a relationship needs to come together. Where we differ, I think, is whether one should hold one's own, authentic pace and find others who match that pace, or whether one should adjust one's pace according to the person one is in negotiations with. there are three paces... My .. Theirs and ... OURS.... If there is going to be a relationship... the pace is going to be OURS... not mine or theirs.

sexisubi -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 2:08:23 PM)
One thing i would not be able to give up is my schooling, it's importent to have an education even if one does end up being a live in sub/slave an education to me is an importent thing. When looking for someone a must for me is knowledge, they don't have to have a degree to prove it, just so that W/we can have a discussion and enjoy that discussion together. For the question on what would i do or like to have done if i were or the Dom was to get hung up on a 'must' it would just be a simple quick conversion. Lets say take for example 'if this works out you will be living here and not working.' The sub then sticks to that... even though it's not to that point.. if it were me i would just want the Dom to sit down with me and say, 'W/we are not to that point yet, don't be conserned with it, and I don't know if that is going to happen, but if W/we do need to talk about it, I will be sure to let you know.' Or something along those lines, if it was a conversation a sub had with the Dom same thing less demanding but same principles, 'W/we aren't to this point in O/our lives and it worries me when W/we talk about it, do you think that W/we could wait on this discussion? Lets just see how things go.'

Twicehappy2x -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 3:03:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexisubi One thing i would not be able to give up is my schooling, it's importent to have an education even if one does end up being a live in sub/slave an education to me is an importent thing. Good for you! You are young (grins, not picking on you there hon, just a granny thing) and a good education is a must now days if you ever want to get any where. I made sure all my ums went to college and i'll be pushing the grand ums to go as well.

NihilusZero -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 9:34:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW There is no point in developing an emotional connection with someone who isn't going to be a good fit for our household... so I am blunt up front. And my point is that if you are too blunt up front, you may never get the opportunity to make an emotional connection of any kind... including with individuals you might have very much wanted too. Well, that depends on whether the individual focused on needing this game of developmental emotional protrusion is feeling that way for any reason other than habit. If I lose out on connecting with someone whose only reason for discounting me is my refusal to play a slow-speed game when it comes to things which I want to be open, honest and mutually introspective about, then I wouldn't consider that person to be a match in the first place. That the commonplace reality of human nature dictates that those of us who don't wish to play those games do so in order to be more successful at landing a mate doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying that I should compromise my desire to have a fidelitous mate because of how common cheating is in human nature.

MaamJay -> RE: 24/7 living arrangements? What would you consider if asked? (11/23/2008 11:10:49 PM)
I'll chime in again. It's certainly been an interesting debate! Whilst I can understand the "too much too soon" side as expounded by KoM, Padriag and kyra, I still lean towards the "upfront" side of Calla and Nihilus, and of course, the OPs. Whilst it can be true that people can seriously alter how they think and be willing to do things they'd never considered before "for love" (like moving across country or to a different country, changing preferences etc), there's a big risk in allowing the love to develop "hoping" that will be the case if a significant issue is already a barrier. It can lead to a lot of heartbreak on all sides if there aren't some fundamental commonalities in place. If this family itself weren't so well thought out and organised about what it wants, then there would be room for the slow progression and mutually working out a common ground and goals. All 4 would be willing and flexible to "shape-shift" into a new arrangement. However, this isn't the case here. This family aren't shape-shifters, they are more like a giant amoeba seeking to absorb another into their midst. (sorry about the biological and sci fi examples, My brain works strangely sometimes!). The simple point is, the family know and are agreed that they are looking for a live-in sub, not a visiting one. Specifically, Jewel is looking for someone who will want to and be able to spend a significant portion of Her waking hours with Her. She wants a companion, not a guest. And the family as a whole is planning to do some travelling in the relatively near future. So someone who is so wedded to their job that they can't conceive of ever giving it up, even with assurances of their own financial stability, is simply not the right one for them. In fact, they need someone who can conceive of giving up their job in the relatively short term of a year or so. This is their dealbreaker and really, this fellow's attitude breaks the deal even before all the cards have been dealt. Now they have made it abundantly clear that at this stage all they ask him to do is conceive of it, to entertain the notion of not working full time. They're essentially offering early retirement with benefits! It's a matter of being willing and able to do so when the agreed time comes for that to happen. This sub does not appear to be willing or able to entertain that notion. It seems he is willing to compromise or cope with several other issues that could well be dealbreakers to others (the smoking, bikes etc) but this one, no. In which case, he has done all a service by terminating the process and breaking the deal. There are some who would say this could have waited till after the first meet in the flesh. Maybe ... maybe not. If that meeting had occurred within a couple of weeks of encountering each other online, maybe. When several months of communication have occurred, it would be hard not to have mentioned this big life change that the family are embarking on along the way! It would be like Me talking to a sub now and accidentally-on-purpose not mentioning that Master and I are selling up and looking to buy a 5th wheeler and setting off to "fart about" as Master calls it (travel around Australia) for the next 3 years or so while I do My Ph.D! Ummm like ... that's not going to affect My negotiations with a sub?? Of course it does! In the case of the current boy, it potentially buys him 3 years of time to earn his stripes at the new level of his profession, and We're likely to drop into the city where he will be stationed from time to time as it's My home town. It's buying him some time and that works out well for him. Not so good for Me though [&:]. Of course, the right subby one could always fall off the back of a truck and into Our van on the way round! That's the risk this boy takes (in a way) for not jumping in now. However he knows right now (and has done so from the beginning) that Our ultimate goal is still a live-in sub, even though that's now not likely to be Our short term goal (unless We follow the right truck [;)]). If W/we all survive the LDR thing for that long ... and find out along the way that he IS the sub W/we want AND W/we are the Master/Mistress he wants ... then somehow a way will have to be found to make that work. The key point is, he is currently willing to entertain that notion, that he might in the future want to be 24/7. And he realises there may be compromises for all in finding a way to make that reality when the time is right. It could be that Master and I choose to live closer to a city than ideal so he can live with Us and pursue his career. It could also be that he goes back to flying smaller planes because he can get a job with regular hours doing that in a smaller regional centre. And a willingness to entertain such ideas is all I can and do ask of him at this time, there is a long way to go. However, if he couldn't entertain the notion of EVER being 24/7 ... then I might offer some short term orientation-type play and that would be it. I would be approaching him in a whole different manner as a play bottom and friend, not as a potential sub for Me. So, I still support the OP family in the way they've gone about this as this IS a significant thing to them, it's the major part determining who they want as a sub to join their nest. Sorry this one doesn't seem to be the right boy, better fortune with the next! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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