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The armed services - 11/21/2008 7:29:01 PM   
colouredin


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Ok so i was on my way home from a perfectly nice evening at the pub, i went to the local kebab shop so my sister and friend could grab themselves some food and im accousted by some army folks. Im used to people from the army coming from an army town. I have met some wonderful men in the army and some morally bankrupt boys. I was having a bit of a chat with a couple of them, one of whom started to have a row with me and told me that i should respect him because he is fighting for queen and country. I argued back that he is younger than me and so at most he could have fought the Iraq war which i disagreed with anyways. He still argued that I should admire his courage. I pointed out that its just a job its no more noble than teaching or being a police officer, he disagreed. So I got to thinking do we have to respect someone purely because of their role? Or do we respect them as human beings. This guy was moaning about how the lack of funding was ruining our country pointing out various agencies like the NHS and social services and so I mentioned to him that he cant really use that arguement as a disproportional amount of the economy is spent on the military, he got more angry and I was asked to leave the premisis because the bouncer  agreed that I should respect his role. Ok so im a bit tipsy so i cant easily frame this into a question I just want to know peoples opinions on the matter, sorry for lack of parragraphs or spelling and grammer mistakes as i said i just got home from the pub.

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RE: The armed services - 11/21/2008 7:36:04 PM   
corysub


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I would suggest a cup of hot tea...Earl Gray is nice.  Just ordered a canister from Harrods online. 
Seriously, maybe the bloke was having a bad night and you just happened along.  I would thank him for his service to the country and just move along smiling.

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RE: The armed services - 11/21/2008 7:41:19 PM   
Roselaure


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Sounds like you had a lovely evening out.  OK here goes.  No matter how much of a dumbass any individual military member might be I still respect their service, which may be different than respecting them personally. 
This does not mean their political views deserve any more respect than anyone else's however.  We are all citizens and are entitled to our views (no matter how moronic they may be).

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RE: The armed services - 11/21/2008 8:59:25 PM   
TheHeretic


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       An asshole with a uniform is still an asshole.  Sounds like that is what you encountered.  Anything you might owe to his service for your freedom get voided in this case by his entitlement attitude. 

      And no, the military is not equivalent to the heroic civilian occupations you mentioned.  They risk their lives, certainly, but they have not volunteered to be expendable.  In the sense that one surrenders life and death to authority, Soldiers occupy a very special niche.

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RE: The armed services - 11/21/2008 9:05:32 PM   
RainydayNE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       They risk their lives, certainly, but they have not volunteered to be expendable.  In the sense that one surrenders life and death to authority, Soldiers occupy a very special niche.


that's the way i feel about it
they've signed on to go out there and possibly die.
everybody could potentially die everyday, but death isn't in the job description for most people
for that, they do deserve a certain kind of respect

BUT that doesn't mean you have to bow at their feet and agree with them on everything.
that guy was a complete jerk

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RE: The armed services - 11/21/2008 11:33:36 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      An asshole with a uniform is still an asshole.  Sounds like that is what you encountered.  Anything you might owe to his service for your freedom get voided in this case by his entitlement attitude. 

     And no, the military is not equivalent to the heroic civilian occupations you mentioned.  They risk their lives, certainly, but they have not volunteered to be expendable.  In the sense that one surrenders life and death to authority, Soldiers occupy a very special niche.


I agree.
Just a drunkin night at the Pub.
That's why it's not good to talk religion and politics in the Pub.
Sounds like that young soldier was a little immature.
At the point that he became argumentative you should have just thanked him for his service and moved to the other end of the Pub.
I wear either a "US Navy -Retired or US Coast Guard-Retired ballcap most of the time and many people have come up to me and said, "thankyou for your service" here in S. Carolina.
It's a nice gesture and much appreciated and a lot differant than the Vietnam days when I first got out of the Navy.

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RE: The armed services - 11/21/2008 11:54:34 PM   
BKSir


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Jeeziz...  The first time I've ever agreed with Popeye.

My partner is a disabled vet, a good number of my family are veterans, I teach a cooking class at the V.A. hospital to disabled veterans.  I respect them because of the reasons they served, not because they served.  The people I encountered served for honor, freedom, etc., the majority because they didn't have a choice and were drafted.  And I thank them and respect them for that.

That being said, the person you met tonight, as with most of the younger people joining the armed forces now, are doing so for greed and lies.  They are told anything that they want to hear to get them to enlist, usually blatant lies that have to do with money.  Yes, it is often viewed as the only way out for some people, the only way to get into college and try to better themselves in the long run, the only way to gain training.  But, the fact of the matter is, once they're in, they don't receive even half of what they're promised, they're told "Huh?  Well, sorry the recruiter said that, but, we don't have to follow through.", they're trained on substandard and obsolete equipment that provide them no useful training in every day society.  They signed up because of greed and empty promises, and I feel sorry for them.  For their reasons though, I don't give much respect.

Go sit in a veterans hospital for a while, watch the people, listen to them, or even better, go walk down the street and talk with the guys with the signs asking for change that got left behind and are just trying to survive after the empty promises when they came home.  Those are the ones that I respect, the ones that joined when the military still actually had values and morals and honor.

My grandfather (a veteran of both nam and korea) once told me, "Any person that says you should respect them, is probably one of the last to deserve it."


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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 1:29:32 AM   
tweedydaddy


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I think you ought to be grateful that there are people out there with the nobility of spirit to go out and fight for you, or you would have no freedom at all.
Lads and Girls are out there, right now, dealing with their own fear and looking out for your interests and being killed for doing so by some of the most inhuman scum the planet has ever seen. This war has no boundaries and we did not start it, it's either fought on their streets or ours, we have rules and standards and they and their resident cousins will bomb our buses and trains, and you can find it in you to pick pampered, churlish points with one of them, who is probably emotionally and psychologically shattered?
Whoever this guy is, I owe him a drink,  and I'm proud of him.
I could never say the same about you.

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 1:43:28 AM   
Lockit


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Wow... I used to bartend and saw my share of drunk military guys.  A drunk is a drunk... an ass is an ass and I don't care what they do for a living or if they wear a uniform.  I have always advocated and supported those in the military, but when one is out of line and expects his opinion or his uniform to get him extra powers in a bar... he is just another ass to me.  He gives the good guys in the same uniform a bad name.  Arguing with a woman in a bar and expecting her to respect him and his opinions... no I don't think so.  Rude is rude and I don't care what he fights for.  He shames himself and the uniform if he is drinking and deciding he deserves special treatment.

My family has fought in every American war except our latest and not one of them would expect someone to treat them any differently than anyone else.  Hell, even our countries leaders don't even respect the people in uniform and honor their promises to them.  Now that is a shame but I don't think we owe anyone any respect if they come off like a borish prideful and selfish punk.  What next.. blow jobs for the guys because they deserve our everlasting whatever and have courage.  Courage would mean he didn't need to brag about his courage.... most couragous people I have known were pretty silent about it.

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 1:46:35 AM   
GreedyTop


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*applauds Lockit*

respect the PERSON....


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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 2:30:01 AM   
hlen5


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  I would be interested to know how old the soldier in question was. Sure he was annoying, but considering he could be going into harm's way at any time, cut him some slack.
  I don't see how anyone could say that today's soldiers are signing up out of greed. Greed?? Are you kidding me? Are service members now getting pay equivalent to a Fortune 500 CEO? And until you perfect your technique for reading minds and hearts, how can you presume to know why anyone VOLUNTEERS to give up their own freedom for a term of enlistment?
  I think that military people deserve our respect until they prove themselves unworthy of it. 

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 3:00:05 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

I would be interested to know how old the soldier in question was. Sure he was annoying, but considering he could be going into harm's way at any time, cut him some slack.
I don't see how anyone could say that today's soldiers are signing up out of greed. Greed?? Are you kidding me? Are service members now getting pay equivalent to a Fortune 500 CEO? And until you perfect your technique for reading minds and hearts, how can you presume to know why anyone VOLUNTEERS to give up their own freedom for a term of enlistment?
I think that military people deserve our respect until they prove themselves unworthy of it. 


Psst, I don't think he was talking about personal greed.

Lockit and TH pretty much nailed this one. I spent 8 years in the military, a good bit of that in the middle east and africa. I came to the personal realization during that time that people who demand respect are usually the ones who deserve it the least. There is pride in wearing the uniform, but true respect comes from one's actions not what one is nor what suit of clothes one wears. If I saw a vet treated badly or disrespected because of he was a vet I'd step up to his or her defense. If I saw one being treated badly because he or she was an ass, I'd shrug. An ass is an ass. A uniform doesn't change that.

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 3:14:33 AM   
hlen5


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I went back and read the poster accusing enlistees of greed. I still believe that is what he meant.

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 4:50:05 AM   
atursvcMaam


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    i may not always (or ever) agree with, nor understand your point of view but i will defend to my death your right not only to have it, but to express it. 
   imagine that coming out of the mouth of a teacher, or police officer, or any occupation other than a soldier.
    

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 5:04:45 AM   
ScooterTrash


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Being a veteran I certainly respect anyone who serves in the military for their country. However, even though that is noble, the rules change a bit when a drunk is drunk. No different than if I and a friend would be out and they get a bit too much to drink and get mouthy. They would still be my friend at that point in time, but they would also be an asshole that is running a chance of getting knocked on their ass. The next day they would still be my friend, maybe one with a bad memory...lol. In the case of this particular soldier, perhaps the proper thing to do was just nod, thank him for his patriotism (humor him) and move away from him. There are assholes in all walks of life, but I regret that sometimes they are useful assholes and you just have to work around it.

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 5:15:19 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

I am very glad you enjoyed your time at the pub.   I disagree with you 100%.  I maybe against the war  in Iraq.  The reason is the kids are being killed because they believe in somthing that does not exisit anymore.  They believe in American Pride, Duty, Honor, and Country.   Until You are brave enough to take the oath to serve in the military, I suggest that you search your soul for the cruel things you  just said.    I call you a coward.  Cowards are the ones who will not serve when called.  You are a worm. 
I proudly served my country during the Reagan years.  It was three years I will never forget.  I learned Respect, Duty, Honor, and Country.  Yes, you should respect that uniform.  
The military serves without regard of their own health, family, and friends just to help slime like youl
Oh, I hope I was not to bold.

Regards, MissSCD



Well firstly im from the UK so our military has nothing to do with American pride, and a large amount of the squaddies that I know couldnt give a crap about our country, for many it is glamourised, have a look at some adverts over here, free accomodation, travel and lots of drunk women thats what appeals to many.

To those who said that the military isnt the equivilant of what I said, I understand that these people pledge their lives but that to me doesnt demand more respect than a teacher or a doctor which is what this specific guy was telling me. I didnt respect him because he was disrespectful and arrogant and i dont respect that no matter what uniform they wear.

I am not saying that I dont respect people in the military but i dont respect them purely for their job. Maybe I am a coward and a slime but i dont think that being in the army is the only nobel job. I am not a coward but i wouldnt sign up to fight for something I dont agree with, sorry about that.

I never told him that I didnt respect his job, we were talking about something differant, about the stereotype of squaddies (wife and kids at home girlfriend at the base, this is only true of the younger ones of course) and then he began screaming that i should respect him, im sorry but i dont respect that kind of behaviour. One good deed doesnt mitigate all bad ones.

I probably shouldnt have written the post tipsy but I was more thinking about whether you respect the person or their job, I respect the person.

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 5:25:47 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I was more thinking about whether you respect the person or their job, I respect the person.



I'm in full agreement. If it helps qualify this, my Dad served in the Royal Air Force, and my Uncle in the army as a bomb disposal expert. Didn't matter a jot to me. No extra respect on the grounds of their chosen career path.

Serving the country? Well, they're not serving me. I didn't ask them to, nor want them to. Don't expect me to be in awe of someone else's idea of 'nobility'.

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 5:41:37 AM   
Aneirin


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One thing I learned about the military, is that the military respond to the civilians as Sir, in fact it was the running joke that a warrant officer with twenty seven years service leaves the service and is promoted on leaving. he is promoted to sir, the civilian

Gulf war 1, Desert storm, if you were military, you were gold, the civilian loved you, but after the operation had ended, if you were military, you were some form of pond life. Here in Britain it seems the military go through a love/hate relationship with the civilian depending on what is happening and how much fervour there is for the country at the time.

Desert Storm, I got a police escort once out of a traffic jam on the M6 because I was wearing my cabbage gear, trying to get back to my unit, I got to drive on the hard shoulder. Not that I was at that point involved with the actual conflict, but the police didn't ask that, I just thought myself lucky and went with it. An example of the fervour for the military at that time I suppose.

Another time, the time of the Falklands conflict, any civilian driving down south from Liverpool took Squaddie back packs and stuff with them, the reason being injured squaddies had been taken to a location down south, but their gear was taken up north, many civilians transported damp muddy packs in the back of their cars to reunite with their owners.

That was then, something has changed I think, there is not the love for the squaddie now, maybe it is because we all know Iraq is an illegal war. Afghanistan, not many I know have much clue why things are going on over there, most think it an extension of the Iraq conflict. In fact most Squaddies I talk to know this, but they also know they signed up for it and must go where they are sent, like it or lump it.

Maybe it is that when a person gets drunk, the feelings come out, the depression, all of it and they question their involvement. Maybe it is they think to counter their feeling by thinking they are doing what they do for the civilian, it eases their mind, possibly it is that some get the feelings of grandeur to kid themselves in their thoughts. Many have feelings of grandeur, a grandeur that is false in society today. It could even be people who have personal issues join the forces in the false belief that they will become someone by wearing a uniform, they will by their appearance command respect. My time it was we didn't say who we were because of the PIRA threat, but being military it was painfully obvious to most what you did for a living.

The saying is, when the drink is in, the sense is out bears well in Colouredins situation- for all parties involved.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/22/2008 5:48:59 AM >


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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 6:03:32 AM   
LadyEllen


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A perfect snapshot of modern Britain; a bouncer in a kebab shop because otherwise fairly innocuous people get rolling drunk and enter arguments they'd usually have the sense to avoid

E

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RE: The armed services - 11/22/2008 6:07:16 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

A perfect snapshot of modern Britain; a bouncer in a kebab shop because otherwise fairly innocuous people get rolling drunk and enter arguments they'd usually have the sense to avoid

E


Yes, the fourth largest economy in the world - not bad for a small country off the North West coast of Europe - is fuelled by kebabs and drunks. Ellen, this isn't one of your more representative snapshots.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 11/22/2008 6:08:52 AM >


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