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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 12:56:31 PM   
Cuffkinks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
With personal responsibility, the right to keep and bear arms is not an issue.


Bingo!
It's a heavy responsibility to carry a firearm. One that these two morons in the Toys-R-Us took a little too lightly.
Look where it got them.

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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 1:06:27 PM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

but in fairness safety isn't the real reason why gun ownership in the USA is so fiercely protected. It's a cultural artefact.

"Safety" is a wonderful canard in the gun control debate, mainly because it only exists to the extent people take steps to protect themselves.  Without personal--read individual--responsibility, safety is a fiction (and a damned dangerous one at that).

With personal responsibility, the right to keep and bear arms is not an issue.




The problem with you gun fetishists is that you think a gun is the only way to protect yourself.

Sorry but the world isn't black and white,

There are other ways to defend yourself

People will not all act civil anymore than having gun control made people less civil.

You like guns, fine.  But don't shove your fetish down other peoples throats and don't try to mask it with this "safety" argument which is pretty trasnparent.

Once again:

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DEFEND YOURSELF OTHER THAN A GUN. 


(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 1:09:18 PM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuffkinks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
With personal responsibility, the right to keep and bear arms is not an issue.


Bingo!
It's a heavy responsibility to carry a firearm. One that these two morons in the Toys-R-Us took a little too lightly.
Look where it got them.



And if guns were eliminated.

This wouldnt've happened.

And if you put guns in the hands of everyone.

Incidents like this would happen practically everyday.

And the fact that people still argue against gun control and such

Just proves my point about this having all to do with personal ideology and not about the greater good.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 1:18:52 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

The problem with you gun fetishists is that you think a gun is the only way to protect yourself.

Fetish?

Defending and advocating a constitutionally guaranteed right is now a fetish?





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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 1:20:26 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

And if guns were eliminated.

This wouldnt've happened.

This is a pointless tangent.  You might as well wish for it to rain hundred dollar bills.  There is no way to eliminate guns.  

quote:

And if you put guns in the hands of everyone.

Incidents like this would happen practically everyday.

The numbers show otherwise.

In states where concealed carry is permitted, crimes against persons and violent crimes decreased.  In states/cities where handgun ownership was restricted or removed, the opposite happened.

You can belittle people all you like by referring to those you disagree with as "gun fetishists", but it doesn't change the truth.  Taking firearms out of the hands of law abiding citizens does not reduce crime.  When law abiding citizens are armed, they are safer.

~stef

< Message edited by stef -- 11/29/2008 1:24:29 PM >

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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 1:23:48 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		O.o did the article specifically say they had licenses for the weapons?

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 1:23:48 PM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		I suppose I've never been convinced of the argument that a gun is effective in a defence situation, unless the other person doesn't have a gun but instead maybe a knife. If people didn't carry guns criminals would be using their knives instead of their guns perhaps and if the criminals are carrying their guns then what chance do you have if they know their intent and you don't? You will always be on the back foot, in some parts of the world criminals don't threaten anymore they just shoot because threatening gives the other person time to react.

-2(instead)

< Message edited by Raechard -- 11/29/2008 1:30:35 PM >

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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 2:52:48 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Sorry to the gun people but I cant see the benefits... just fear and paranoia. This isnt hunting, this isnt defending, this is stupidity.

Hmmm......two stupid people removed themselves from the gene pool and you don't see a benefit?



Yeah, they did us all a favor!
Hmm, "California", "Gangmembers", I wonder if they had, ... "immigration issues?"

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 3:09:54 PM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		I was thinking myself it could be gang related violence over Toys R Us turf but eye witness information states....
quote:


Ray Turner, 20, said he was two aisles away when two women began shouting and screaming at each other and he had a clear view of the fight until a crowd clustered around them. Both women had children, he said.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6137171.html

They said it wasn't over a toy but that may be putting a spin on things because it could have been over queue jumping etc.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 11/29/2008 3:12:31 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 3:37:23 PM   
Roselaure


Posts: 672
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

I was thinking myself it could be gang related violence over Toys R Us turf but eye witness information states....
quote:


Ray Turner, 20, said he was two aisles away when two women began shouting and screaming at each other and he had a clear view of the fight until a crowd clustered around them. Both women had children, he said.

 

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6137171.html

They said it wasn't over a toy but that may be putting a spin on things because it could have been over queue jumping etc.


Maybe one of them said "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" and the other one started shooting.


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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 9:13:01 PM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Fetish?

Defending and advocating a constitutionally guaranteed right is now a fetish?


No but the way you gunlovers go on about guns it could be classified as a fetish.

quote:

This is a pointless tangent.  You might as well wish for it to rain hundred dollar bills.  There is no way to eliminate guns. 



No it's not pointless, it's the truth.  No guns, nobody would've been shot.


Your calling it pointless speaks volumes

quote:

  The numbers show otherwise.

In states where concealed carry is permitted, crimes against persons and violent crimes decreased.  In states/cities where handgun ownership was restricted or removed, the opposite happened.

You can belittle people all you like by referring to those you disagree with as "gun fetishists", but it doesn't change the truth.  Taking firearms out of the hands of law abiding citizens does not reduce crime.  When law abiding citizens are armed, they are safer.



But, the way celticcord and the rest put it, not only law abiding people would have guns.  But also criminals, the insane, would not only have gun but would be required too.

No sorry but if you think all people are gonna be civil towards each other if everybodies armed, your are living in a dream world.

What happened at Toys R Us illustrates the biggest problem with this insane philosophy.


Sorry but you gunnut have no leg to stand on with this.

This is what would happen, and it would happen because not everyone is gonna be civil to each other, and having everyone armed is just going to ensure that a situation that could've ended alot more peacfully or at the most a few broken bones, ends in possibly someone dead.

That's escelation of conflict.

And once again, there are other ways to defend yourself and people defended themselves quite well for centuries before guns were invented so that argument is also false.

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 9:48:26 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

but in fairness safety isn't the real reason why gun ownership in the USA is so fiercely protected. It's a cultural artefact.

"Safety" is a wonderful canard in the gun control debate, mainly because it only exists to the extent people take steps to protect themselves.  Without personal--read individual--responsibility, safety is a fiction (and a damned dangerous one at that).

With personal responsibility, the right to keep and bear arms is not an issue.




The problem with you gun fetishists is that you think a gun is the only way to protect yourself.

Sorry but the world isn't black and white,

There are other ways to defend yourself

People will not all act civil anymore than having gun control made people less civil.

You like guns, fine.  But don't shove your fetish down other peoples throats and don't try to mask it with this "safety" argument which is pretty trasnparent.

Once again:

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DEFEND YOURSELF OTHER THAN A GUN. 




You know slaveboy, there's an old saying; "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/29/2008 10:14:35 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

but in fairness safety isn't the real reason why gun ownership in the USA is so fiercely protected. It's a cultural artefact.

"Safety" is a wonderful canard in the gun control debate, mainly because it only exists to the extent people take steps to protect themselves.  Without personal--read individual--responsibility, safety is a fiction (and a damned dangerous one at that).

With personal responsibility, the right to keep and bear arms is not an issue.




The problem with you gun fetishists is that you think a gun is the only way to protect yourself.

Sorry but the world isn't black and white,

There are other ways to defend yourself

People will not all act civil anymore than having gun control made people less civil.

You like guns, fine.  But don't shove your fetish down other peoples throats and don't try to mask it with this "safety" argument which is pretty trasnparent.

Once again:

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DEFEND YOURSELF OTHER THAN A GUN. 




You know slaveboy, there's an old saying; "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."


*Smacks popeye with a flyswatter*

Be intimidated! >:O

SB, I'm fairly certain they are not insisting on people with a proven criminal record be given guns.


< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 11/29/2008 10:15:29 PM >

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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/30/2008 8:34:23 PM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

but in fairness safety isn't the real reason why gun ownership in the USA is so fiercely protected. It's a cultural artefact.

"Safety" is a wonderful canard in the gun control debate, mainly because it only exists to the extent people take steps to protect themselves.  Without personal--read individual--responsibility, safety is a fiction (and a damned dangerous one at that).

With personal responsibility, the right to keep and bear arms is not an issue.




The problem with you gun fetishists is that you think a gun is the only way to protect yourself.

Sorry but the world isn't black and white,

There are other ways to defend yourself

People will not all act civil anymore than having gun control made people less civil.

You like guns, fine.  But don't shove your fetish down other peoples throats and don't try to mask it with this "safety" argument which is pretty trasnparent.

Once again:

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DEFEND YOURSELF OTHER THAN A GUN. 




You know slaveboy, there's an old saying; "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."


Superior strength  or weaponry doesen't always mean your gonna win.


And what's wrong with fighting with  your 2 fists?

I mean really, it would be alot better.  At least the odds of someone not dying wouldn't be as high.

And once again, there's no guarantee that the other person is going to share the view of civility and gun ownership.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/30/2008 8:56:10 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

Superior strength  or weaponry doesen't always mean your gonna win


Just 99.9% of the time.

Besides, have you seen my arms? I have fricking toothpick arms, no fistfights here.


< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 11/30/2008 9:19:57 PM >

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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/30/2008 9:04:28 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:


Superior strength or weaponry doesen't always mean your gonna win.

No, but it sure as hell moves the odds in your favor.

Using fists makes for a great scene in West Side Story, but against a real thug, a Colt Python makes for a better ending.


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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/30/2008 9:11:48 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
You know slaveboy, there's an old saying; "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."


Superior strength  or weaponry doesen't always mean your gonna win.


And what's wrong with fighting with  your 2 fists?

I mean really, it would be alot better.  At least the odds of someone not dying wouldn't be as high.

And once again, there's no guarantee that the other person is going to share the view of civility and gun ownership.

slaveboy, there's nothing wrong with fighting with your fists but not if someone's trying to rob you! As in "armed robbery." Or rape you, or kill you.
Or break into your house like that "nightstalker" guy in Calif.
If I'm ever in those situations I'm not going to be very "civil" either, I'll shoot right through my jacket.

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RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 11/30/2008 9:57:06 PM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
And once again, there are other ways to defend yourself and people defended themselves quite well for centuries before guns were invented so that argument is also false.


You've said this twice now, so I'm curious.  Suppose a crack addict pulls a gun on you from...let's say....15 feet away.  He's acting nervous, waving the gun around, acting like he is ready to pull the trigger any second and he is demanding your wallet and car keys.  Your wife, son, and or daughter are at home and once he has your wallet and keys he will know where you live and can enter any time he wants, day or night.  You've seen his face and you can be pretty sure he isn't going to leave you alive as a witness.  How do YOU defend yourself?  Just curious.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 12/1/2008 5:11:44 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

Superior strength  or weaponry doesen't always mean your gonna win.

And what's wrong with fighting with  your 2 fists?

I mean really, it would be alot better.  At least the odds of someone not dying wouldn't be as high.

And once again, there's no guarantee that the other person is going to share the view of civility and gun ownership.

First, its a safe bet that the one with the superior weaponry is gonna win.  Granted, it is not assured but I still like to hedge my bets.

Second, there is nothing wrong with using your fists.... unless the other guy has a gun or a knife.  As far as the likelihood that someone is going to die being lessened, I'd have to disagree.  I am large enough, strong enough and have enough training to kill a human being very quickly with my two fists.  The guys who trained me are waaaaaay freakin better.  If I'm gonna kill someone, I'm gonna kill them.  That means gun, sword, knife, rock, lead pipe or fists.

If people were being civil in the first place, we wouldn't be worrying about carrying guns or knives.  We wouldn't need them.  The guns are just hardware used to achieve the same end that people have been achieving since before the discovery of fire.  If you want to make the world safer forget gun control and concentrate on dumbass control.

I would even send money to help with that cause.

And for the record, we should not blame the gun but the psychos who took them into a frakkin toy store.  I bet people like that take them into day cares, too.   You never know when you might have to cap some 3 year old for disrespecting you.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: 2 dead after shots fired in Toys 'R' Us - 12/1/2008 9:20:23 AM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

slaveboy, there's nothing wrong with fighting with your fists but not if someone's trying to rob you! As in "armed robbery." Or rape you, or kill you.
Or break into your house like that "nightstalker" guy in Calif.
If I'm ever in those situations I'm not going to be very "civil" either, I'll shoot right through my jacket.



You'll more than likely be dead before your even aware that a Richard Ramirez is even in your house.  I doubt he's going to wake you up and tell you he's here to kill you.  Chest-thumping bravado is not an argument.  Sitting here saying you'd do this or that in a situation like that is not either.

With incidents like this, illustrates the biggest pratfall to the argument of arming everyone.  Situations like this will happen alot more because people who should never own a gun will be required too.  And not everybody shares your fantasy that everybody will be civil to each other.

quote:

You've said this twice now, so I'm curious.  Suppose a crack addict pulls a gun on you from...let's say....15 feet away.  He's acting nervous, waving the gun around, acting like he is ready to pull the trigger any second and he is demanding your wallet and car keys.  Your wife, son, and or daughter are at home and once he has your wallet and keys he will know where you live and can enter any time he wants, day or night.  You've seen his face and you can be pretty sure he isn't going to leave you alive as a witness.  How do YOU defend yourself?  Just curious.



You don't pull a gun on the guy, he'll shoot you even if he thinks your grabbing for something.  This is a no-win scenario.  Having a gun guarantees that you will be shot.  Unless your incredibly fast or he's bluffing and the gun isn't loaded.



quote:

  First, its a safe bet that the one with the superior weaponry is gonna win. 


Yeah your right, and the States really kicked the Vietcongs ass didn't they?


quote:

  Second, there is nothing wrong with using your fists.... unless the other guy has a gun or a knife.  As far as the likelihood that someone is going to die being lessened, I'd have to disagree.  I am large enough, strong enough and have enough training to kill a human being very quickly with my two fists.


But not everybodies fist are that lethal.  And if I remember correctly from martial artists that I've spoken too, you'd be in more trouble if you killed someone with your fist and you've had that kinda trainning than the the person attacking you.

On the other hand, a gun in the hands of someone who's never fired one before or is a novice is just as deadly as it is in the hands of the president of NRA.


Not everyones hands are lethal weapons.

But there's no such a thing as a non-lethal bullet armed gun.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 80
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