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RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 1:25:05 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

We don't just reach a static point and stop. Life is fluid and keeps flowing.

Another example of how more complexity (ie: more rules) creates more errors. The more rules you have, the less flexibility exists. Unless each rule is written so loosely as to be able to be interpreted differently in any given situation. And then it really isn't a rule.

quote:

secondly.. a more complicated system doesn't mean it will be prone to more failure..

On this point we will have to vehemently disagree.

quote:

but when failure does occur.. the consequences are likely to be much more significant and maybe even harder to fix.

Complicated systems include redundancy systems. Which do nothing to reduce failures. They simply cover them up. If those complicated systems are important, it would be dangerous to confuse the two.

quote:

I am thinking that there is no system much more complicated that getting a man into space.

I'm thinking making a human being is quite a bit more complicated. And the error rate is enormous.

quote:

We succeed many times.. and unfortunately we have failed on occassions as well. But did it stop us from continuing the process and getting into space. No.. so was it a failure? I consider failure at the point we choose not to succeed. to date we have not choosen to go into space. I have not choose to end my relationships with my girls. Or after one failed relationship decided not to get into a relationship. I suppose it's how you define failure.

The failure or success rate of the overall objective says nothing of the (literally) thousands of errors that occur during each mission. The fact that those errors were not catastrophic does not mean they did not occur.

John

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Post #: 121

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 1:27:58 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Right. But by setting these rules in stone and saying no exceptions no matter what, he won't get a relationship. Because he's putting the rules before the relationship.

Except he didn't say these rules are set in stone with no exceptions no matter what. Rather, he asked if his expectations are realistic and for our opinions. I'm guessing that's so he could review and alter them if he is being unrealistic.

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Post #: 122

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 1:43:15 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

But isn't that too late by then? A rule is a rule. If it is broken because of an error in the rule, then it wasn't much of a rule in the first place - it was a learning curve. If it is broken because it is not obeyed, that is a different matter.

the.dark.

Wilful Disobedience has a very heavy price in my household as most already know. It is rather simple to state a rule is a rule and when broken it is a lack of obedience. I don't agree with this idea. There are just laws and there are unjust laws. The point is to establish just ones and as result we are likely to have alot of obedient people in society. In my world... it's about making effective rules. The breaking of a rule is not always due to a lack of obedience. Sometimes it because of just stupid rule that is in actuality a rule to setup to fail. I have stated before my idea of DOMS (Direction, Opportunity, Motivation and Skill) It is part of the process in figuring out why things will fail or do fail. Often times rules don't apply not because of lack of obedience or desire to be obedient.. but because of poor direction in understanding of what the rule is or no opportunity to actually succeed or maybe lacking the skill. I would say a lack of motivation is a very serious issue and just might be heading towards wilful disobedience.

I would also say that obedience to me is as much a state of being or a motivation (Motivation to Obedience) if not more so than it is a specfic event in a moment in time. There is alot of things that draw a submissive to want to obey their Dominant and it not just because he/she throws out a bunch of rules for them to follow. The motivation to obedience is critical in my view of the authority structured relationship. It is not an easy thing to get started in any dynamic and making impossible rules and setup a peron to fail are good ways to hinder that motivation. I am always focused on fueling the Motivation to Obey. One can fuel it in alot of different ways... one of which is making quality rules that are appropriate for the relationship and in that one needs to consider and reconsider the rules that exist. But it is not about following the rule. it's about maintaining that Motivation of obedience and even growing it. It has been my experience that submissives persons find a tremendous positive feeling from just that internal desire to obey their Dominant or Master. That in many ways that motivation expressses in one huge feeling all the things they feel and think about their Dominant or Master. They can express so many things about there Dominant or Master that motivate them in one way or another. But the end result it all comes together in a Desire and Motivation to Obey.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Post #: 123

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 1:59:24 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
This brings me to a final point in the application of rules within a relationship. The key obedience of the rules is not the quality of the rules themselves thou it is important. It is the quality of the relationship and individuals in the relationship that have a more significant impact on the results.

Right. But by setting these rules in stone and saying no exceptions no matter what, he won't get a relationship. Because he's putting the rules before the relationship.

What you call having a process in place to deal with times they can't reach you, we call having a tiered set of rules. Meaning if two rules collide one is more important.

Living together stuff doesn't really contradict itself anymore but back when we were LDR he would occasionally send me an order for the day. One time he sent me a list of clothes for the day; no panties, short skirt, heels. He forgot that my schedule for the day was escorting a middle school hiking trip. By having a system in place, one rule that superceded another, there was no conflict.

However if he cared more about his rules than the reality of life, I could have wound up being punished for chaperoning my kid's class up a mountain side. Obviously that makes no sense. But there are people who would do so anyway because to them the rules trump the people involved. Because they get off on beating an ass red and seek to create situations where the sub can't succeed in order to have an excuse to do this and get off on it.

And that's what we were sensing. That he cares more for his rules than for his partner's welfare and that he wants her to fail so he has an excuse to punish.

Which says to me he isn't ready to lead anyone as a good dominant doesn't lead people to fail but instead to succeed. And that he needs to deal with his own issues about his sadism so he can just indulge himself without screwing with her emotional well being in order to indulge his sadistic impulses.

I don't get the feeling the OP's a bad guy. Just young and not quite ready for prime time.

I agree.. in my own world there is a priority of importance to rules. One superceeds the other etc. I think the problem people have is they seem focused on rules written in stone. In fact, in a living vibrate relationship... rules in stone or at least to many of them are a sure way to failure. No situation or set of rules can cover every situation.. one has to beable to effectively respond as it requires. I often wonder what is the motivation that people want to make the rules. Sometimes I think people put the cart before the horse so to speak. Making rules to gain Obedience.. or maybe one should establish the desire or motivation of obedience and make rules that demonstrate what is already there. I have never seen or heard of a relationship or person that got all goose bumpy just to follow a rule for the rules sake. It always seems to me that the motivation to obey came before the rule. I think that is what the OP might need to learn. That his future girl is not going to be lifted off her feet because he throws down a bunch of rules on the table for her to follow. The rules are an opportunity for to show what is already in her heart and mind. But if the rules are not reflective of what is in her heart and mind.. there will be trouble in paradise. I believe the rules of a relationship should be reflective of that relationship. It might mean 5 rules it might mean 1000. Either way.. it's not the number... it's the appropriatness of them to the relationship. If they are appropriate.. there is no greater chance of failure for 1000 as there is for a relationship with 5.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/4/2008 2:01:02 PM >

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 124

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 2:10:10 PM

Padriag

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Rather than try to address the entire list point by point I'm going to simply offer some advice regarding the general process of setting rules and structure.

Firstly, take a minimalist approach to rule creation. Rules are important, a clearly defined structure is important... but it is also valuable to find the shortest route to get there. In other words... fix in your mind the sort of relationship dynamic you wish to create, then consider the briefest combination of rules that would effectively create that dynamic.

Secondly, when making rules consider what is necessary and address that first. In other words prioritize your rules, dealing first with those things you feel are necessary to establishing the dynamic you want versus things you would like but aren't as important, and things that are fantasy (nice if you can have them, but not really important).

Third, consider the practical application of each rule... try it out yourself. If you can't manage it, odds are a submissive won't be able to either. For things you can't try yourself, ask someone who has (for example, if you want to know if oral sex every morning is practical or not, ask a submissives you know for their experiences with such).

Fourth, keep in mind how long it takes you to both memorize and apply a rule yourself. Bear in mind that you cannot enforce a rule if you can't remember it. You cannot effectively enforce it if you can't consistently remember it. If it takes you a month to memorize and consistently apply a rule, keep that time frame in mind when dealing with a submissive (with some variance), this will help keep your expectations reasonable and realistic.

Fifth, all rules are subject to modification due to reality.

Now for an opinion...
I think what you have as an outline for yourself, just to help you organize your thoughts and personal expectations, is an okay start. You're putting thought into what you want and creating a roadmap to get you there and that's a good thing. What you need to do now is refine what you have started with, figure out what parts need to be changed, what needs to be expanded on, what parts might need to be shortened or eliminated. Spend some time listening to how other dominants do similar things, and learn to understand why they do what they do, what are the reasons behind their choices... that will help guide you in making your own choices.

As for a set of rules to present to a submissive, I would expect what you have to be a dismal failure as written. This is in part due to how it is written. It does not read easily and you'll find you get better results if you work on the presentation. Don't present the whole thing at once... break it into smaller sections that can be worked on individually. Start with some very basic protocols to establish the initial dynamic, work on that until its consistent then move on to the next "set" of rules... get those consistent, then move on to the next "set" and so on.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Geoffozi)

Post #: 125

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 2:27:24 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I often wonder what is the motivation that people want to make the rules.

With this statement you crystalized my dislike of the OP's post. I get the sense that the motivation here is that it's a masturbatory fantasy. He's looking for an ass to redden.

Just like no top wants to be the life support system for the paddle, subs don't like to be interchangeable asses for the paddle to be used on.

Now, if this wasn't what was driving him I apologize. But the harping on red ass no matter if she spilled the milk or called him an idiot in front of her mother gives that impression.

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Post #: 126

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 2:45:55 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Rules are made to be broken--always. The more rules you have the less obedience you will get.

Bollocks. Rules are made to be enforced and adhered to - always. It's not about more or less rules, it's about being firm with the rules you have in place. Allow one rule to be overriden, and it will set a precedent for other rules. You know what these sneaky fuckers are like - give them an inch and they'll take a yard.

Edited to add: the whole point of the rule of law is that everyone knows where they stand. That's what works with human beings: you know your place and you know you have a right of appeal to the rules. The alternative is over-riding the rules on a whim - that is, absolute authority. Tell you what, you'd be over the moon were your government to ignire the rules and impose their will on a wing and a prayer.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/4/2008 2:59:08 PM >

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 127

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 2:54:56 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
You know what these sneaky fuckers are like

OMG!! This made me burst out laughing, NG!!!

Sincerely,
A sneaky fucker.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 128

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 2:56:39 PM

Aileen1968

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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Too many rules....

I'm old and my memory sucks. This would be my downfall.

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Post #: 129

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 2:56:43 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

Rules are made to be enforced

How do you enforce a rule that is never broken?

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Post #: 130

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:09:34 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Rules are made to be enforced

How do you enforce a rule that is never broken?

This is the rule; abide by the rule or find yourself somewhere else to live. That is enforcing the rule from the off.

Whether or not you practice leniency, is irrelevant to your idea that 'rules are made to be broken'.

As per my previous post:

The whole point of the rule of law is that everyone knows where they stand. That's what works with human beings: you know your place and you know you have a right of appeal to the rules. The alternative is over-riding the rules on a whim - that is, absolute authority, and that is far too stifling to be healthy. Tell you what, you'd be over the moon were your government to ignore the rules and impose their will on a wing and a prayer.

The people breaking the rules aren't following your principle that the 'rules are there to be broken'; they're putting themselves up front for head of the pack in order to impose their rules.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 131

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:10:08 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Rules are made to be enforced

How do you enforce a rule that is never broken?

mmmmm maybe you should go back to Domming 101 if you don't know that answer.

There is a difference between enforcing rules and holding a person accountable for broken rules. Enforcement is not about holding people accountable... It could mean to strengthen or to urge with energy... to compel or even gain with force or just to carry out effectively.

As note.. when a rule is broken.. Enforcement has failed.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/4/2008 3:12:59 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 132

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:15:09 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

There is a difference between enforcing rules and holding a person accountable for broken rules.

That is your error. Enforcement and holding someone accountable are one and the same.

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Post #: 133

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:17:26 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
You know what these sneaky fuckers are like

OMG!! This made me burst out laughing, NG!!!

Sincerely,
A sneaky fucker.

Once upon a time, I was a happy-go-lucky lad.....these days, you'll find me a street corner preaching about the rules........usually paranoid and accusing the owner of the burger van of breaking the European convention on mustard to burger ratio.

But, yeah, the sneaky fuckers....gotta watch 'em like a hawk.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 134

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:17:34 PM

CatdeMedici

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Joined: 10/20/2008
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Holy new Dominant batman! I so agree with Darcy and dark--hellooooo, My gawd this is like the party of the first part agrees to do XXX with the party of the second part.

IMHO to come to the table with predefined rules is stupid, simply stupid. Most rules are to make the Dominant appear to be the Dominant--puhleez, I dont need that. I don't have to beat My chest to ensure I am in charge-each relationship is different, each interaction between two people are different-one's goose is not another's gander. A D/s relationship should not read like something out of the gestapo manifesto.

Your rules here, pffftttt, fantasy babe, I'd buy a My size Barbie as they won't break them-the rest--dude its called negotiations or better relationship development--remember IF you have a submissive--they are human too, not a doormat.

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Post #: 135

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:27:10 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

There is a difference between enforcing rules and holding a person accountable for broken rules.

That is your error. Enforcement and holding someone accountable are one and the same.

aaaaaww no. One enforces a rule to be abided by... when it is broken.. one is held accountable for breaking it (and punishment might be used). and then they are enforced to abide by the rule once again. If the rule is never broken.. then one is never held accountable and punishment brought to bare. They are indeed related.. but holding someone accountable is a subset to enforcement but not the same as enforcement. Put it another way.. "threat" of punishment Enforces complaince to the rule. But one doesn't need to be punished or held account if they are following the rule.. but none the less.. enforcement is still occuring.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 136

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:30:49 PM

bratb

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Joined: 11/7/2008
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i like to think of myself as a very obediant submissive however if i were to see this list of rules i would run like hell !!!!

Just my humble opinion.

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Post #: 137

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:39:37 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

There is a difference between enforcing rules and holding a person accountable for broken rules.

That is your error. Enforcement and holding someone accountable are one and the same.

It's one-dimensional to believe that the only way of guaranteeing subservience to the rules, is through punishment/discipline post rule breaking.

I could threaten her upfront with any number of repercussions.

I could make myself so appealing to her, that she has absolutely no desire to break the rules.

I could vet her upfront to ensure she has a history of abiding by the rules.

I could indoctrinate her with the rules.

She could be head over heels with rules, which I suppose is a likely scenario for a dominant who is intolerant of disobedience.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/4/2008 3:53:31 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 138

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:42:05 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Once upon a time, I was a happy-go-lucky lad.....these days, you'll find me a street corner preaching about the rules........usually paranoid and accusing the owner of the burger van of breaking the European convention on mustard to burger ratio.

But, yeah, the sneaky fuckers....gotta watch 'em like a hawk.

I hope you find that happy-go-lucky place again, NG. I find it to be a much better place.

(and I'm not really a sneaky fucker)

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 139

RE: Set of rules... - 12/4/2008 3:48:58 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
It's one-dimensional to believe that the only way of guaranteeing subservience to the rules, is through punishment/discipline post rule breaking.

I completely agree with this. When I hear the term "Rules are made to be Broken".. it reminds me of the person that needs an Excuse to do Punishment that so many look upon with contempt.

In general.. Punishment to me could be failure of Enforcement. It just might be though that the rule itself is unenforceable and as such will not like get much obedience as well. I think enforcement and obedience go very much hand in hand. If one wants to do punishment.. I suppose they can set their property up to fail.... but that seems like the cowards way out. Maybe just do "funishment" for kicks and jollys... I think there is alot of people that have fun with that. But lets make some distincition from the kinky fun and the application of the Authority/Obedience dynamic.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/4/2008 3:49:34 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 140

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