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Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 12:15:22 AM   
califsue


Posts: 593
Joined: 2/2/2008
Status: offline 		I attended the local munch tonight and they do a questions in the hat session. One of the questions had to do with submissive and doormats. My question is not about the whole is a submissive a doormat or anything. Even in the room of 35 attendees there was a difference of opinion. However, the one thing that seemed to stir the pot was that a submissive needs to know themselves and their desires and that in their experience the submissives that tend to be doormats are new people.
 
When one is new and exploring it is easy for Masters/Doms to take advantage of a new submissive. I know that many who post on the boards are advocates of getting involved locally, attending munches etc. In my limited experience I don't see that attending a munch would prevent one from being a doormat.
 
If you were to look back when you first discovered your kink, would you say you ever acted as a doormat if submissive or as a D/M did you ever treat anyone like one.
 
Just curious and can't sleep...so pondering things.
 
 
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 12:23:34 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Of course I have.  "Doormat" = "someone too demonstratively submissive for my taste"

It's like "fantasy" ("sexual desires too far removed from the norm for my taste"), "vanilla" ("sexual desires too close to the norm for my taste"), "fake" (by now you can fill in your own definition), and "real" (ditto).

quote:

ORIGINAL: califsue

If you were to look back when you first discovered your kink, would you say you ever acted as a doormat if submissive or as a D/M did you ever treat anyone like one.

(in reply to califsue)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 12:24:08 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The issue is that people see doormat as bad and negative.  The reality is that being a doormat can be as powerful and wonderful as anything- if it's right for you.

Attending munches is advised not because it stops people from being idiots, but because it exposes them to new ideas, new dynamics and gets a bit of distance from the internet culture which can often only vaguely resemble real people dynamics.  It can help someone from thinking "all slaves are X" because they can meet a dozen slaves who are all a dozen ways.

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(in reply to califsue)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 12:24:47 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Funny...I'd think it would be the opposite. I'd expect doormats to be subs/slaves who, over a long period of self-discovery and self-honesty, arrived at a point where they understood how much surrender they wanted and consequently the prerequisites they'd expect of their Masters/Mistresses prior to devoting that surrender.

The way you describe it, many people still seem to parallel the word "doormat" (as a D/s role descriptor) with something inherently negative or naive...which shouldn't be the case.


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I know they're all insane
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 12:59:47 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: califsue

My question is not about the whole is a submissive a doormat or anything.
 


In order to answer the question, I don't think you can avoid the related question of: "what is a doormat?"

For me, it is someone who consistently allows their needs/desires (as mapped out in the rules and agreements at the outset), to be over-riden.

quote:

ORIGINAL: califsue
 
Even in the room of 35 attendees there was a difference of opinion. However, the one thing that seemed to stir the pot was that a submissive needs to know themselves and their desires and that in their experience the submissives that tend to be doormats are new people.
 


On arriving at an unfamiliar situation, it's natural to be uncertain. In an uncertain environment, there is a tendency to accept that which you wouldn't accept were your foundations in better shape: experience is the best teacher.

quote:

ORIGINAL: califsue

I don't see that attending a munch would prevent one from being a doormat.
 


At a munch you're exposed to the experiences of others; whether or not you make use of the experiences and people that will benefit you, and swerve the experiences and people that will be a hinderance, is a matter of choosing wisely.

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 3:23:32 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The issue is that people see doormat as bad and negative.  The reality is that being a doormat can be as powerful and wonderful as anything- if it's right for you.



I agree with LA here. Like so much in what we deal with in the wonderful wacky world of KINK, much depends on peoples' perceptions of certain terminology.

Personally, and excessive display of submission may be inapproprriate and unseemly for me but such things are rare. However I would leave you with a comment I am want to use which applies to in and out of the Lifestyle:

"There are two types of women:
  1. The Doormat! She is the one who you can walk over and treat like dirt and she will continue to come back for more.
  2. The Bitch! She is the one who will defend her mate and her children and her home to the death. Whoa betide any mate who shits in his nest and breaches their dynamic for she will boiot him out the door and will not let him in untill he gets his act together.
Most men I know prefer their women to have something of the Bitch in their makeup. "

Personally I prefer any slave girl of mine to be part bitch for I know where they are at and I can trust them to protect my back if needs be. Come to think of it, damned nearly every slave girl/kajira I have ever known is part bitch.



_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 4:52:31 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Of course I have.  "Doormat" = "someone too demonstratively submissive for my taste"

It's like "fantasy" ("sexual desires too far removed from the norm for my taste"), "vanilla" ("sexual desires too close to the norm for my taste"), "fake" (by now you can fill in your own definition), and "real" (ditto).


This needs to go in a dictionary somewhere.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 5:04:37 AM   
rubberpet


Posts: 1743
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: The Land of Voodoo
Status: offline 		I was always too headstrong and independent to be a doormat to anyone, even the dommes I was with.  I am very submissive to Mistress and would do a great deal for her no matter how much of an inconvenience it is for me, but she absolutely respects my "anti-doormat" side.  Any dom/me that would try to treat me like a doormat would get the "are you fuckin' serious" look and a slightly disrespectful giggle right in their face.  Then I'd trot off like a very disinterested puppy and probably go piss on their bag of toys.  LOL
 
I am a slave to only one and a doormat to none.

_____________________________

Collared and devoted property of Mistress Lorelei (vampchick88) as of 3/26/08.

Rubberpet - The Resident Anti-Subby and mysterious shadowy figure known as Voodoo, proud hitman and wiseguy for the Subby Mafia.


(in reply to califsue)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 5:18:46 AM   
CatdeMedici


Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline 		I think LAM and LA have very valid statements, we tend to bring our judgements, definitions and predefined stereotypes into this life, when it should be the place that we can attemp to be what we need to be, get what we need to fulfill us and be allowed to be free from living to someone else's predefined stereotype. 
 
 

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(in reply to califsue)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 5:30:36 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		When I was first entering the scene .. doormat couldn't have been further from how I interacted. I was a cocky, defensive, proud little minx (and that hasn't changed really)

Doormat came later ... with certain people that is the relationship dynamic that works. Many many people see it as a negative thing, and in some relationship dynamics it is deeply negative and destructive. With other people however its exactly the dynamic that works for me.

Obviously it is in the interests of some people to encourage the doormat side of newbies, it makes them far easier to exploit. Sadly people looking to exploit the naivity (sp?) of newcomers, or anyone for that matter, is a fact of life in general, not just BDSM is particular.


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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 5:45:41 AM   
mc1234


Posts: 683
Joined: 10/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

If you were to look back when you first discovered your kink, would you say you ever acted as a doormat if submissive or as a D/M did you ever treat anyone like one.


Yes, I can say I've done this - it was with someone who didn't brook a lot of discussion.  He wanted things done his way, and his way alone, and that was that - no discussions about anything, really.  I felt muted almost when with him - and that's not me at all.  I'm usually outgoing and opinionated (appropriately so usually! lol)  Obviously it was a sign that the dynamic wasn't right, but it took me a little bit of time to figure out what was going on.  And I guard against it happening again - it wasn't a good feeling.

(in reply to califsue)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 5:45:59 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Submission expressed through unconditional love and being a doormat - what's the difference?

What's the problem?

To me the problem is not in the word, but in the thinking, where time after time after time after time ad nauseum where someone will take a word which applies specifically to a specific situation and apply it generally to cover everything.

Examples:
a dominant - a person who is dominant 24/7
a submissive - a person who is submissive 24/7
the lifestyle - a mythical lifestyle shared by everyone and anyone professing to be kinky, into BDSM, authority transfer or internal enslavement
a Gorean - someone out of touch with real life who prefers to live in a fantasy world based on novels

This is why every so often on a regular basis we get ridiculous threads started by people trying to take a term which applies in a specific sense to a specific relationship and make it a general definition applicable to all and sundry, e.g. hard limit, differences between subs and slaves, and so on.

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(in reply to califsue)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 5:47:22 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: califsue
However, the one thing that seemed to stir the pot was that a submissive needs to know themselves and their desires and that in their experience the submissives that tend to be doormats are new people.

Could be but not in my own personal experience.  I wasn't a "doormat" (by my own definition of what that word means) BEFORE I entered into any BDSM relationship.  Therefore, I did not automatically become one when I did. 
quote:

When one is new and exploring it is easy for Masters/Doms to take advantage of a new submissive.

So it is said.  Yet again, not in my own experience.  I had a really good head on my shoulders before I met Master and I still do.  Just because I consider myself "submissive," doesn't mean I'm easily taken advantage of.  My own personal pet peeve is all the nonsense you hear about "sub frenzy."  I'm not even going to go into it again here.  Just suffice it to say that the notion of it - in my own personal life - is ridiculous.  I didn't lose my common sense, good judgment and ability to control myself the first time I got a few lashes.  Using that as an excuse to be stupid and without good judgment really gets my goat.  But then some are always looking for an excuse to act like that, I suppose.
quote:

I know that many who post on the boards are advocates of getting involved locally, attending munches etc. In my limited experience I don't see that attending a munch would prevent one from being a doormat.

It wouldn't.  If one is predisposed to "being a doormat" (in a negative sense of the word), all the munching in the world ain't gonna stop 'em.  As a matter of fact, it may just throw them out there into the ring to be stomped on by all the local yahoos.  Some love local community get-togethers and some of the most successful couples here have never set foot into such things.  It's whatever works for you.  But, as you say, thinking going to local groups is going to necessarily prevent one from "being a doormat" or anything else would be assuming too much, methinks.
 
Master is my first BDSM partner.  I didn't go into a "frenzy" when we got together.  I didn't become a thought-less "doormat" (again, to me, in the negative sense) and I've never done a local get-together.  We're very happy, very much in love and now very married.....living proof that you don't have to follow the blueprint that so many insist upon..........................luci

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 6:37:23 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: califsue

However, the one thing that seemed to stir the pot was that a submissive needs to know themselves and their desires and that in their experience the submissives that tend to be doormats are new people.

 
I believe those submissives/slaves that tend to be "doormats" do so for one of four reasons.  One, it really suits them.  That's the kind of dynamic they enjoy and flourish in.  Two, they are (mis)lead to believe that is the "right" dynamic for all of BDSM and do so out of ignorance.  Three, that they're desperate for a relationship... any relationship... and believe that being a doormat may make them appealing.  And four, that the thought of being a doormat is really appealing to them personally, and they do not yet have the experience to know if the reality suits them.
 
Add to the mix that the dynamics that work for any individual are prone to change depending upon who their partner(s) are, and that means there are plenty of possible combinations that may work for someone, each in a different relationship.
 
Now, are those situations more prevalent amongst newer folk... probably so.  But far from exclusively so (ie: I believe they may be in the majority, but not by any great percentage).

quote:

 
When one is new and exploring it is easy for Masters/Doms to take advantage of a new submissive.

 
And it is easy for someone to want to be taken advantage of.  I've often said that people can consent to their own exploitation... and love it!  Are there Dominants always on the lookout to take advantage of new folks?  Sure.  But they have a willing flock of (supposedly) adult submissives/slaves who must allow it to happen.  And with the wealth of information that's "out there", I cannot believe that the majority of them do so without fair warning.  Crying foul after the fact isn't very meaningful in my book.
 
quote:
I know that many who post on the boards are advocates of getting involved locally, attending munches etc. In my limited experience I don't see that attending a munch would prevent one from being a doormat.

 
Being active in your local community wouldn't prevent anyone from being anything.  It would simply expose them to a variety of realistic opinions and examples, from which they may choose for themselves.  Having the right of self-determination means we also have the right to choose poorly.

quote:


If you were to look back when you first discovered your kink, would you say you ever acted as a doormat if submissive or as a D/M did you ever treat anyone like one.


Obviously, I never acted like a doormat.  But I believe there was a time early on when a doormat might have been more appealing to me out of my own ignorance.  I thought it said something about me... about how Domly I was if I had a doormat.  And really, it was playing to what I perceived as the expecations of others rather than to suit my own wants/needs/happiness.  Fortunately, that was short lived.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 12/6/2008 6:44:33 AM >

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 6:41:31 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Funny...I'd think it would be the opposite. I'd expect doormats to be subs/slaves who, over a long period of self-discovery and self-honesty, arrived at a point where they understood how much surrender they wanted and consequently the prerequisites they'd expect of their Masters/Mistresses prior to devoting that surrender.


I mean this as no disrespect, NZ, as I personally hold positive outlooks in high regard.  And it's apparent to me over the course of several threads that your expectations for others are often predicated upon the "ideal".  I mention it only because the few times in which we've had disagreement have been when I have found the ideal in short supply (ie: not very common).
 
John

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 6:44:01 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I admit I'm always a "doormat" when it comes to my partner, always have been whether it be what we formally call "bdsm" or not. He gets what he wants and I do as I'm told. Why would I do anything less? If I didn't trust him I wouldn't be his partner or slave.

That does not mean I am a doormat to everyone else..unless again, that's what my partner wanted.




< Message edited by littlewonder -- 12/6/2008 6:45:22 AM >

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 6:59:15 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I was a doormat in my vanilla marriage.  I was afraid of his anger and allowed him to ride roughshod over me in the hopes that if I could keep him from being angry that his charming side would come out more often.  Trust and communication degraded as the years went by and I basically shut down the majority of my emotions and just barely got through each day.

That's why trust and communication drew me to the lifestyle.  I wanted to be appreciated for my hard work and not just expect more and more to be taken from me with no chance of fulfillment. 

The statement that I most agree with from above is that someone desperate for a relationship is more likely to become a doormat.  Studies have shown that children prefer negative attention to none at all; some people carry that into their adulthood.  While a sub may not always get fulfillment from their role there should be times, hopefully a large percentage, when they do.  The relationship - for most - needs to be more symbiotic than parasitic.


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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 7:51:21 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		The focus on word definitions is a trap. It is counter intuitive for learning about yourself. Discovering you is much more important than discovering how you qualify or not qualify for a word definition generated by a partner or group mentality.

Most are a matter of perspective from individuals subscribing to a 'one-true way' philosophy or worse; on the outside looking in, but needing to use their 'Brother - P Touch' label maker. After a bit of conversation you find out that their definitions are self serving and run along these lines:
  • submissive: A person doing things I'd like to experience if I ever had a partner.
  • slave: A person doing things I'd never consider but sometimes fantasize about while masturbating.
  • doormat: A person doing things I consider disgusting and demeaning to myself and humanity in general.

(in reply to chamberqueen)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 8:01:58 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		When i was new (shiny new!) in my first (and only) bdsm relationship , i was fairly constantly worrying about wheither i  was a good enough slave/sub for my Sir . I would ask him what made his other girls so good, and what did i need to do better. It took me a little while to get confident enough in our relationship to stop trying to find out how to be a good sub, and just be one!

It seems to me to be a door mat, you have to have an abusive dom, to take you over the line from normal submission , into "abnormal " submission, where the sub would qualify as doormat, because they are doing things that are unhealthy for them.  I guess you could be a doormat in a relationship that others would find healthy, but to me it is a ying/yang kind of thing. If someone is being doormatty, then there has to be someone being the "foot" on the doormat.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 8:19:52 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

This begs the question of whether or not there is anything inherently wrong with being a "doormat"... see, there is the implication that, if a person is 'wise' and 'experienced', the person wouldn't even -think- about being so completely submissive that other people would label hir as a 'doormat'. On the other hand, some of us -love- that person who is completely and utterly yielding... who is so yielding that xhe actually thrives best where xhe can be what xhe is comfortably.

I don't think that there is any such thing as a 'doormat', except in other people's opinions. I think that there is a BROAD range of submission, and some folks are abjectly submissive, while other people find any level of submission uncomfortable. I also realize that some people are uncomfortable with deep and pervasive submission, and suspect that making other people uncomfortable with their deep submission by labeling it 'doormat' comes out of their need to 'fix' someone else who expresses that sense of existence, so as to minimize their own discomfort.

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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