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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 8:22:52 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

After a bit of conversation you find out that their definitions are self serving and run along these lines:
  • submissive: A person doing things I'd like to experience if I ever had a partner.
  • slave: A person doing things I'd never consider but sometimes fantasize about while masturbating.
  • doormat: A person doing things I consider disgusting and demeaning to myself and humanity in general.

Loved it!!
 
John

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 9:10:37 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The focus on word definitions is a trap. It is counter intuitive for learning about yourself. Discovering you is much more important than discovering how you qualify or not qualify for a word definition generated by a partner or group mentality.



So very true.




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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 9:13:44 AM   
oceanwynds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The focus on word definitions is a trap. It is counter intuitive for learning about yourself. Discovering you is much more important than discovering how you qualify or not qualify for a word definition generated by a partner or group mentality.

Most are a matter of perspective from individuals subscribing to a 'one-true way' philosophy or worse; on the outside looking in, but needing to use their 'Brother - P Touch' label maker. After a bit of conversation you find out that their definitions are self serving and run along these lines:
  • submissive: A person doing things I'd like to experience if I ever had a partner.
  • slave: A person doing things I'd never consider but sometimes fantasize about while masturbating.
  • doormat: A person doing things I consider disgusting and demeaning to myself and humanity in general.




Thank you very much for pointing that out. I like it.

oceanwynds

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 9:16:00 AM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
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Status: offline 		When I first got into this, my interputation of a submissive was a doormat. Someone who had no backbone. So I resisted a lot in the beginning, until I seen what submitting my will to another really met. For me it is a beautiful expression and one I hold dear to my heart.

ocean

(in reply to oceanwynds)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 9:18:57 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't think that only newbies act like doormats. There are more than enough people here who aren't new, and aren't very young and naive, who still allow themselves to be used. They post about how badly everyone treats them and then disappear in a huff when told it's their own fault for picking those kinds of partners repeatedly and for accepting such treatment.

And no, I didn't get taken advantage of because the lessons you learn in life are perfectly transferable to picking sex/life partners. This is basic elementary school stuff. If someone only wanted a play date the day after you got the new Superman comic book, they weren't a real friend just a user. Nothing different now.

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 9:23:26 AM   
Serenelysmiles


Posts: 46
Joined: 11/7/2008
Status: offline 		In my experience it's not the Master that dictates whether or not a submissive/slave is a doormat, nor do I believe that being a novice has anything to do with it.  Doormats tend to be submissives with poor self images.  They lose what little self identity that they have within the relationship because they choose to do so on some level.  Certainly novice submissives may need some guidance in safe, sane and consensual play, but the one thing that no amount of experience, nor any Master can fix is a poor self esteem.  That is something the submissive needs to fix on her own which goes back to knowing oneself, and being self aware no matter your position.  I think that such submissives tend to draw the wrong Masters to themselves by putting out the doormat vibe as we get back whatever it is that we are seemingly by our words and actions transmitting to the world in general, negativity breeds negativity.  They need therapy, and no number of munches can provide that.

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 9:29:56 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serenelysmiles

Doormats tend to be submissives with poor self images. 


I don't disagree that this can be the case for some individuals, but in my own experience it's no more the case than preference, ignorance or inexperience.  In fact, I'd be hard pressed to opine that any of those reasons constitutes a majority, or even a meaningful plurality.
 
But then, I could be way off base.
 
John

Edited to correct the (critical) omission of "some individuals" to the opening line.

< Message edited by Rover -- 12/6/2008 9:51:58 AM >

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 9:35:25 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serenelysmiles
Doormats tend to be submissives with poor self images.  They lose what little self identity that they have within the relationship because they choose to do so on some level. 


While this might be true in some cases, I wholeheartedly disagree with your generality. My self image is just fine and for the right person, I would lie down and be a doormat all over again. It was powerful, fulfilling, beautiful, fun, sexy, and took a confidence and strength I never knew I was capable of.

The non-D/s world has a view of doormats as weak, helpless and needy. Many in the non-D/s world think anyone submissive in a relationship is a doormat (in the terms of weak, helpless and needy) because they do not hold equal authority and stance. Obviously this is an incorrect assumption. I urge you not to bring that same incorrect assumption into the D/s world.

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 10:16:41 AM   
NihilusZero


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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I mean this as no disrespect, NZ, as I personally hold positive outlooks in high regard.  And it's apparent to me over the course of several threads that your expectations for others are often predicated upon the "ideal".  I mention it only because the few times in which we've had disagreement have been when I have found the ideal in short supply (ie: not very common).
 
John

No disrespect taken. I think many people I've personally interacted with have echoed this sentiment in one form or another...and it seems I often lean to having heavy expectations. I would like to think, though, that while I have a fixed eye on an 'ideal' I still have enough realism attached to know what the supply is.

It's always been a weird paradox in my head...the existential nihilist having idealistic notions. *shrug* :)


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I know they're all insane
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I know that I'm to blame."
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(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 10:19:36 AM   
NihilusZero


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Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

~fast reply~

This begs the question of whether or not there is anything inherently wrong with being a "doormat"... see, there is the implication that, if a person is 'wise' and 'experienced', the person wouldn't even -think- about being so completely submissive that other people would label hir as a 'doormat'.

Key point.

Some people seem determined on throwing out the notion that being a doormat and having common sense must necessarily be mutually exclusive.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 10:47:10 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I mean this as no disrespect, NZ, as I personally hold positive outlooks in high regard.  And it's apparent to me over the course of several threads that your expectations for others are often predicated upon the "ideal".  I mention it only because the few times in which we've had disagreement have been when I have found the ideal in short supply (ie: not very common).
 
John

No disrespect taken. I think many people I've personally interacted with have echoed this sentiment in one form or another...and it seems I often lean to having heavy expectations. I would like to think, though, that while I have a fixed eye on an 'ideal' I still have enough realism attached to know what the supply is.

It's always been a weird paradox in my head...the existential nihilist having idealistic notions. *shrug* :)


I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression that you lack any realism.  Quite the contrary.  It's merely an observations that, at times, you may choose to favor the ideal in a discussion.  It helps to understand your point of view.
 
And frankly, it's my belief based upon nothing more than forum discussions (which is to say that it's based upon nothing more than perceptions) that you probably approach the ideal more completely and consistently than the overwhelming majority.  I'm lucky to know people like you, real time.  But you are perhaps far more rare than you realize.
 
John



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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 11:04:42 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: califsue

I attended the local munch tonight and they do a questions in the hat session. One of the questions had to do with submissive and doormats. My question is not about the whole is a submissive a doormat or anything. Even in the room of 35 attendees there was a difference of opinion. However, the one thing that seemed to stir the pot was that a submissive needs to know themselves and their desires and that in their experience the submissives that tend to be doormats are new people.


I can certainly see how that would stir the pot. "New people" tend to be doormats and the "experienced" know better? How lifestyle elitist that sounds. What is a doormat, anyway? How do we wear the title of "doormat" with any less humility than "slave"? And what if a so-called "experienced" individual still chooses to be a so-called doormat? What then? They've obviously broken the rules.

I would agree with you that attending all the munches and workshops in the world won't ultimately deter someone away from being what they are or desire, or encourage them away from the in-crowd's perceived character flaws. For "novices" and "experienced" alike, I believe the problem lies in acting like something when you are really not fulfilling that something internally, and truthfully, it's a mistake both camps can and do make repeatedly in their own way.



< Message edited by MarcEsadrian -- 12/6/2008 11:09:56 AM >

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 11:28:40 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

I can certainly see how that would stir the pot. "New people" tend to be doormats and the "experienced" know better? How lifestyle elitist that sounds. What is a doormat, anyway? How do we wear the title of "doormat" with any less humility than "slave"? And what if a so-called "experienced" individual still chooses to be a so-called doormat? What then? They've obviously broken the rules.


I agree, though I don't believe anyone was establishing any rules... just some experiential observations about trends.

quote:


I would agree with you that attending all the munches and workshops in the world won't ultimately deter someone away from being what they are or desire, or encourage them away from the in-crowd's perceived character flaws. For "novices" and "experienced" alike, I believe the problem lies in acting like something when you are really not fulfilling that something internally, and truthfully, it's a mistake both camps can and do make repeatedly in their own way.


I'm not picking on you at all in regards to this passage.  Truth is, I agree with all of it.  It's just such a great opportunity to contrast the wisdom of what you've said here, with the notion that a submissive/slave can be molded into something they are not, or into whatever their Dominant wishes of them. 
 
I believe the two concepts to be mutually exclusive of one another.
 
John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 1:47:17 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		in a nut shell a door mat is someone that is not respected nor their deeds taken notice of kinda of abused like

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 3:56:35 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

in a nut shell a door mat is someone that is not respected nor their deeds taken notice of kinda of abused like


Hey! You qualified for definition 3 of Merc's list!

You won...a free 30 minutes in the corner with a dunce cap on.

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/6/2008 8:35:16 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		silly wabbit always confuzzled you are Lay of the strange carrots

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 3:11:30 AM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		as a newbie from the net i was a complete brat! - shudder! - i think back at how i was and the misconceptions i had, the so called 'power exchange' we had - my furious defence of what i perceived was submission when in fact it was really nothing more than giving in on my terms, but only if  he'd managed not to irritate me all day!  i had very definite ideas about how he should dominate me and when he didnt come up to snuff id brat out really really badly.

it was a power struggle not a power exchange and i was appalling! -

it was the lesson about trust that eventually swung it for me -

i was a doormat to my vanilla men though, oddly enough - and it was the process of allowing myself to gradually, eventually submit to my submissive nature that has made me stronger not weaker.

< Message edited by lally3 -- 12/7/2008 3:18:53 AM >

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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 7:40:49 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

I can certainly see how that would stir the pot. "New people" tend to be doormats and the "experienced" know better? How lifestyle elitist that sounds. What is a doormat, anyway? How do we wear the title of "doormat" with any less humility than "slave"? And what if a so-called "experienced" individual still chooses to be a so-called doormat? What then? They've obviously broken the rules.


I agree, though I don't believe anyone was establishing any rules... just some experiential observations about trends.


My choice of the word "rules" extends beyond the hat-drawn debate to a common "wisdom" I've heard too many times on the subject at large, a euphemism for a phrase I usually reserve for that wisdom that is somewhat...less polite.

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 7:59:05 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		You just do not have a fucking clue here, do ya? Pretty hypocritical insulting another person's lifestyle, when I have seen posts of yours stating how rude that same behavior is. If you want to actually discuss it, rather than take lame potshots, come on over to the Gorean section at discuss it.

I quote from the guidelines posted by Mod 2

"This isn't a place to insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others. If you don't like what another person enjoys, rest assured that there are plenty of others out there that probably don't like your activities either. Furthermore, baiting, harassment and personal attacks will not be tolerated. "

http://www.collarchat.com/m_72/tm.htm


quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

a Gorean - someone out of touch with real life who prefers to live in a fantasy world based on novels



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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 8:12:26 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		I think doormatism is real (and a real problem), but I'm not sure it has much to do with sexual orientation.  I certainly know men and women -- dom, switch and nilla -- who are desperate to get into a relationship, any relationship... or to keep the one they already have, at any cost.

Does anyone remember the case of the female dentist who repeatedly drove over her husband?  According to court documents, in the months leading up to that incident, he wanted to leave her, and she offered to have a boob job, quit working at her successful practice, and do a gazillion other things as long as he would stay.

I wouldn't define "doormat" as "doing anything for the one you love," because that seems more like the definition of the word "love" to me.  "Doormat" means something more like "letting someone walk all over you, because you'd rather be walked on and miserable than left alone."


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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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