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RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 8:30:41 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
First of all, I want to be on record as saying that I don't believe that all Goreans are out of touch with reality, or live in fantasy.  Some are, of course... just as some Leather folks.
 
Disclaimer out of the way....

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

If you want to actually discuss it, rather than take lame potshots, come on over to the Gorean section at discuss it.


I've done so on several occasions, and been modified on several occasions as a result of complaints.  It's true that I can be a pointed debater.  But I don't get modified here in BDSM forums, because while people may complain (publicly or privately) they don't go running to the Mods for retribution or protection.
 
I believe an invitation like this isn't genuine.

quote:


I quote from the guidelines posted by Mod 2

"This isn't a place to insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others. If you don't like what another person enjoys, rest assured that there are plenty of others out there that probably don't like your activities either. Furthermore, baiting, harassment and personal attacks will not be tolerated. "

http://www.collarchat.com/m_72/tm.htm


And there you have it.  I see hundreds if not thousands of instances on these forums in which folks feel that they, or their lifestyle, has been maligned.  But I don't see them invoking the Mods or guidelines like this.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 12/7/2008 8:31:23 AM >


_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 8:35:58 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
Rover, I have never seen you use terms such as this, so I have always been willing to engage you. Forums such as this quickly degenerate into name calling and insults when posters use terms as Stella did, and why the mods have put prohibitions against it in the guidelines.

You can believe that the invitation is not genuine if you like, and that makes for a great excuse to not accept it, but it is genuine. If you wish to actually have some deep discussions that go into more detail about the philosphy without the M/s involvement, try www.silkandsteel.com . Some of the best minds in the Gorean Community post there.

I suppose maybe it would have been more acceptable to just sling insults back at Stella about some of her life choices or paths?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

First of all, I want to be on record as saying that I don't believe that all Goreans are out of touch with reality, or live in fantasy.  Some are, of course... just as some Leather folks.
 
Disclaimer out of the way....

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

If you want to actually discuss it, rather than take lame potshots, come on over to the Gorean section at discuss it.


I've done so on several occasions, and been modified on several occasions as a result of complaints.  It's true that I can be a pointed debater.  But I don't get modified here in BDSM forums, because while people may complain (publicly or privately) they don't go running to the Mods for retribution or protection.
 
I believe an invitation like this isn't genuine.

quote:


I quote from the guidelines posted by Mod 2

"This isn't a place to insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others. If you don't like what another person enjoys, rest assured that there are plenty of others out there that probably don't like your activities either. Furthermore, baiting, harassment and personal attacks will not be tolerated. "

http://www.collarchat.com/m_72/tm.htm


And there you have it.  I see hundreds if not thousands of instances on these forums in which folks feel that they, or their lifestyle, has been maligned.  But I don't see them invoking the Mods or guidelines like this.
 
John


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 8:40:10 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You just do not have a fucking clue here, do ya? Pretty hypocritical insulting another person's lifestyle, when I have seen posts of yours stating how rude that same behavior is. If you want to actually discuss it, rather than take lame potshots, come on over to the Gorean section at discuss it.

I quote from the guidelines posted by Mod 2

"This isn't a place to insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others. If you don't like what another person enjoys, rest assured that there are plenty of others out there that probably don't like your activities either. Furthermore, baiting, harassment and personal attacks will not be tolerated. "

http://www.collarchat.com/m_72/tm.htm


quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

a Gorean - someone out of touch with real life who prefers to live in a fantasy world based on novels




I read Stella's post differently.  It looks to me that this wasn't a statement of her beliefs, but a listed example of a generalized and innacurate definition or view that some people have.  But maybe I'm misreading myself.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 8:44:18 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
Actually after rereading it myself, you are correct.

Stella, my apologies to you for misunderstanding your point.

To Rover, invitation still open www.silkandsteel.com .


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I read Stella's post differently.  It looks to me that this wasn't a statement of her beliefs, but a listed example of a generalized and innacurate definition or view that some people have.  But maybe I'm misreading myself.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 8:59:01 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Rover, I have never seen you use terms such as this, so I have always been willing to engage you.


I appreciate your recognition that, although my style may ruffle a few feathers, I'm not prone to statements like that.  Unfortunately, your not representative of all the folks on the Gorean forum (nor should you be).  Many of them do not distinguish between difficult questions, and expressions that should be modified.

quote:


Forums such as this quickly degenerate into name calling and insults when posters use terms as Stella did, and why the mods have put prohibitions against it in the guidelines.


It's a fine line between allowing folks to express their own opinions, and enforcing guidelines.  No one envies the Mods for having to do so.  But name calling and insults ARE an everyday occurance on these boards, and is no particular slight against Gor or Goreans.  Folks here are equal opportuntiy offenders.
 
Reflexively invoking the Mods and the guidelines makes it appear that you (and by extension, all Goreans) are thin skinned.

quote:


You can believe that the invitation is not genuine if you like, and that makes for a great excuse to not accept it, but it is genuine.


Allow me to elaborate... the extension you offer to engage in disucsion on the Gorean boards is very likely genuine on a personal level.  And that would be well and good, if you were the Moderator on that board.  But you're not, and we all know who is and how sensitive that person is to discussion that they, personally, do not enjoy or that does not portray them, personally, favorably.
 
The offer is not genuine because the standards on the Gorean forum differ than the standards here.  And the expectations of the majority (and the Moderator) on the Gorean forum is that folks like us should be seen and not heard.  I base this upon extensive personal experience.

quote:


If you wish to actually have some deep discussions that go into more detail about the philosphy without the M/s involvement, try www.silkandsteel.com . Some of the best minds in the Gorean Community post there.


That may indeed be a more genuine forum for discussion.  My reference was to the specific invitation to the forum here at CollarMe.

quote:


I suppose maybe it would have been more acceptable to just sling insults back at Stella about some of her life choices or paths?


We all have choices when our lifstyles are challenged or insulted.  We can respond with humor, sarcasm, insult, complaint, try to elevate the discussion, etc.  We can even question the offender to ask if what they wrote was actually what they meant.  All of us have omitted key words like "most" or "many" on occasion, that significantly changes the perception and meaning of a statement.
 
Had you taken issue with the statement on the grounds that as an absolute, it could not possibly be true, you would have found much agreement and support here.  For lots of folks, their only contact and experience with Goreans are the (very) unrealistic online stereotype.  Give it a try and see what you get.
 
John 


_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 9:00:36 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Actually after rereading it myself, you are correct.

Stella, my apologies to you for misunderstanding your point.


Perfect example of how a knee jerk reaction can cause us all (I am not immune to this either) to over react.
 
Kewl beans, Orion.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Submissive and Doormats - 12/7/2008 9:08:33 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
My brain is not functioning at full speed this morning, so I didn't read the entire thread.

For me, the term doormat has a negative connotation because in my understanding it is a person who submits without regard to their own well-being.  I know that many people use the term in a different way in that it is someone who submits without protest and it fulfills them to do so. 

With my definition of the term, I was a doormat in one of my relationships before I even knew the term lifestyle.  I submitted to what he wanted even though I knew it was detrimental to my own well-being.  It was not a pretty place and it took years for me to recover from consequences of my actions.

I am not a doormat in that sense in my current relationship, which is my first relationship after discovering the lifestyle.  The way some other people use the term doormat, I would most likely fit into that box.  I do his will without protest.  I feel safe to do that because I know he will not intentionally harm me.

In writing this, I don't see much difference between the actions of submitting to the one person who did intentionally harm me and the relationship I am in now.  The difference lies in my choice of partners and not in my behaviors.  

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to califsue)
Profile   Post #: 47
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