RE: How can I give you what is already yours?

RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (Full Version)

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leadership527 -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 2:28:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact With that part aside, I really have a question, more than a comment. If a D-type didn't ever want any input from a s-type, exactly why chose that one in the first place? Sadly, we all know the answer to this question. Let's assume for a moment that what I wanted was a live in maid "with benefits" who would amuse me when I wanted to be amused and shut the hell up otherwise. Then it would make sense for me to structure my relationship in this way. My own impression is that a fair number of guys would, in fact, want such a thing and an even larger percentage of "dominants" clearly do want it. What I can't for the life of me figure out is the S types that go for this. I just chalk it up to "a radically different type of relationship requirement than what I am looking for" and move on.

graceadieu -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 2:45:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl M doesn't care for me looking for ways to serve him or please him. He is perfectly capable of asking for anything as and when he wants it and we wouldn't have lasted all these years if I wasted energy trying to second guess what he wants. I mean this in a purely curious way (I know online it can be hard to tell someone's intent), but are you saying your Dom/Master wants you to wait until he orders you to do anything, rather than trying to proactively do things to please him? E.g., if his back hurt would it be ok in your relationship to make the offer to massage it, or would you have to wait till he ordered you to?

agirl -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 3:11:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: graceadieu quote: ORIGINAL: agirl M doesn't care for me looking for ways to serve him or please him. He is perfectly capable of asking for anything as and when he wants it and we wouldn't have lasted all these years if I wasted energy trying to second guess what he wants. I mean this in a purely curious way (I know online it can be hard to tell someone's intent), but are you saying your Dom/Master wants you to wait until he orders you to do anything, rather than trying to proactively do things to please him? E.g., if his back hurt would it be ok in your relationship to make the offer to massage it, or would you have to wait till he ordered you to? Yes, pretty much so. It's unlikely for me to offer it. There's no need to.......if he wants it, he has it. It's not a case of ordering me. If he wants a massage, he can have it. He can say..* Crumbs, give me a good old back massage, I'm aching like hell. No, I don't faff about trying to work out what he wants. If he wants something, he is a sensible, able adult that can ask for it. Am I missing something here? agirl

tsatske -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 3:27:45 PM)
No, Girl, I don't think you are missing anything at all. I just think it is differeant relationship models, and yours works well for you. What I find offensive is when people on the boards (and most doing this probably don't have anything like your relationship model, btw) attack newbies for trying to come up with something to offer Master, with, 'why would you offer anything?' I don't get the feeling that you run an attack on those with a differant model than yours. You are simply putting in here an alternate view, that some people do, in fact, have this for a model, and it works, and works well, for you. If it is making you both happy, then that is what you should have!

Timoty -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 3:44:16 PM)
There are so many questions in your comments, it was difficult to narrow them down to something meaningful. But, here goes. First, each relationship is unique and the degree of active particiaption in the fulfillment of the relationship, is whatever works between the people involved. A few of My expectations of My girl can be summed up in the following analogy(s). If I were about to walk off a cliff (literally or figuratively, physically or emotionally, etc.) I would hope a girl felt it her duty, her feeling of love for Me, her desire to keep Me safe, etc, etc, etc to do whatever she could to stop Me. If that meant physically grabbing Me, so be it. If that meant speaking out of turn to help Me, so be it. Etc etc etc. she is, in fact, an active particiapnt in the relationship. Secondly, I would hope that she would never feel prevented from selecting the most beautiful rose from O/our garden to present to Me at dinner merely because I didn't tell her that she had that option. What a dreary world it could be if the only things she could do were a direct derivitive of My mind and nothing from hers. Lastly, communication is an expectation and requirement for her. It is not an option that she chooses to dole out from time to time but an integral piece of her servitude, devotion, and adoration. It keeps the relationship growing and moving forward. There are so many more things to discuss about this but My time is up and I have prattled far too long. Just a few thoughts. Master Timoty

barelynangel -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 3:47:17 PM)
I agree that a NEW slave should not be offering up suggestions if she is a slave. For example, the issue with the thread you are whinging about is logic. 1. The girl is in control all day, she has authority. 2. She has a hard time transforming at the end of the day. 3. Her Master decided rituals would be good 4. she should suggest some based on coming to a message board asking strangers? No, that would be kinda counter productive. Why? Because she is trying to find her submissive perception. What would be better than the Man who is her Master determining for her these rituals. Not only will doing the rituals help but the very fact she had no control over choosing, no thought process, or say in what she does would be an added bonus to her mindset she is trying to obtain. She will be reminded that within his home the control is not her own, not even the power of suggestion to him. Its not about a slave not thinking or not having thought process, its the concept of the dynamic she lives it. I personally am sick of the insinuations that if a slave exists in the expectations of her Master where it looks to outsiders like she doesn't think, its a negative viewpoint from people. Tsatske, all you are doing is whinging because you don't like an opinion someone gave to someone else based on THEIR understanding of THEIR views. You took offense and ran with it stomping over here to have a kaniption because you do A, B, and C. You are doing in this thread exactly what someone posted that you took offense too. I don't think a slave should be suggesting things, i don't believe a slave should take advantage of the autonomy he allows her and utilize it to get her way on things because she sneaks things in there, i don't believe a slave should deviate from his expectations and standards for her UNLESS she requests permission. There is a huge difference between a slave suggesting ways the Man should consider changing the relationship and a slave begging permission to deviate from his expectations. I would think a slave choosing to do as she pleases until such time he tells her its displeasing to me is attempting to manipulate him hoping he will just accept it instead of negate it. I have seen many slaves gert their asses beaten for attempting to manipulate the relationship through subtle actions and changes because she chooses to rather than he determine it should be so. I don't know what subs do, but to me, slaves live based on his expectations and standards, therefore, any deviation should be approached in the form of begging and permission seeking, not suggesting or demanding or manipulating through doing instead of asking. When people ask for something on the boards, people will reply with regard to THEIR understanding of the question with their opinion, you will reply with your beliefs and opinion. You get your knickers in a twist because of opinions offered and then start a new thread to whinge about how dare someone say something to a newbie. To me, the advice to a newbie or anyone would damn well be do not attempt to suggest anything but wait until your Master considers the situation and speaks to you. Why? Because that is my view and understanding of slavery to a Man. People don't like it -- tough, i am not here to conform to the politically correct concept of what i know, understand and have lived because people tell me i should. And i will give my opinion to newbies based on that understanding and yeah, people like you did with that person saying you shouldn't -- may take offense. This isn't a concept or shouldn't be of validate me. Its a concept of opinions. angel

Padriag -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 4:20:35 PM)
Well... ain't this an interesting development. Was wondering when the other shoe would drop.

agirl -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 4:23:30 PM)
Well, to be frank....If you're in control then you are. If it mattered greatly what other people thought, I'd be following their notions and not his. It might be seen as an attack, to be asked * Why would you offer anything?...but that doesn't make it an attack. The answer to that question could be because I want to or * because my Master wants me to* If your owner wants you to do stuff in a certain way , then go do it. If you have a desire to seek out ways to please your chap, then go do it. I'm used to a rather pared down version of control. It actually means CONTROL. Why make it more complicated than it need be? The bottom line is ...If HE's in control, then he is in the position where he can have things how he'd like them. It's not an elaborate game where I have to mess around guessing. agirl

AquaticSub -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 4:32:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl No, I don't faff about trying to work out what he wants. If he wants something, he is a sensible, able adult that can ask for it. Am I missing something here? agirl Yes. That many owners, like most people, enjoy it when someone they love expresses their love and devotation in completely unordered and unexpected way. Your way works for you but surely you can see how your post in condesending to others who don't work that way. Val doesn't need to reminded of anything but that doesn't diminish the fact that he enjoys when I randomly present myself. Sometimes the action is sweeter when uncalled for. That doesn't work for you - great. You don't "need" it. But to believe that those who do things differently must "need to be reminded" or aren't "sensible adults" who can't ask for things they need is patrionizing and gives your style of relationship airs. I'm glad what you have works for you. It's not something I could ever have because I would miserable without being able to randomly express my love by offering a backrub or buying him a bag of gummi bears. It's the way I am and I highly doubt that doing these things means he would otherwise forget he knows me. In fact touches the collar she was given tonight I'm pretty damn sure he'd never be able to forget that... Edited to add: I really don't understand that "you don't suggest anything" response because it assumes that the person in is a particular type of relationship that you haven't been told they are in. It's same as the "why the hell are you asking strangers this, your owner must be so ashamed of you!". When someone posts something, unless they say otherwise, I try to assume that they are in a relationship where suggesting new things is allowed or where the owner wouldn't care the question was posted. If in doubt, before scolding, I try to ask.

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 4:42:02 PM)
um welcome to coruppted change lol

AquaticSub -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 4:44:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 um welcome to coruppted change lol If this was in response to me you're going to have to explain it further. You are making even less sense than usual.

stella41b -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 4:59:10 PM)
Is there any wonder that such questions are asked when there's so much codswallop and baloney being bandied about? I'm getting into a relationship with a Polish woman called Ala, she prefers to dominate, I prefer to submit, so who is she? A Mistress? Owner? Goddess? Dominant? And who am I for that matter? Am I a submissive? A slave? Is our relationship a D/s relationship? Is it an M/s relationship? The answer is both yes and no. The baseline of the relationship is that it's a relationship between her - Ala, and me - Stella, on the understanding that one of us (Ala) prefers to be dominant and in control and the other (me, Stella) prefers to be submissive and to transfer authority. Now she's coming into this relationship not because she's a dominant and wants a submissive, she's not coming into this relationship because she wants a slave, but she's coming into this relationship for one reason alone - to be with me. I'm with her not because she's a domme, not because she's a dominant, a Mistress, or any other reason than she is Ala. We already have our own dynamic in place, we talk everything through (she talks, I sit through it) but we also make it up as we go along. Today there is no dynamic, next month it could be Goddess and submissive, two months later it could be Mistress and slave, another month later you could catch us on a rare day and discover she's the submissive and I'm the dominant. Who cares? We don't. All we have is that awareness that she is dominant and likes to have control, though not all the time, and that I am submissive and like to transfer authority, but not all the time. We figure if we give each other ample opportunity to fulfill these needs, we will both be happy. But this is just us and what we do, which may be different to what all of you out there have (or seek) but none of what I'm writing here should either validate or invalidate what you already have (or seek). If you are happy with defining your relationship as Master-slave or Mistress-submissive then who am I or anyone else to dispute what you are saying or disagree with you? It's your relationship, not mine. Peaches and cucumbers aside I don't give a monkey's bahookie over what anyone thinks of my submission, being a submissive or a slave, of the relationship I'm in or anything else. On the boards I can only offer my view based on my experience, insight, knowledge and/or opinion, I would hope that it isn't seen in any way as a value judgment. It isn't. It's up to you to decide whether I'm a decent example, a horrible warning, or just barking mad.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 5:10:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel I agree that a NEW slave should not be offering up suggestions if she is a slave. For example, the issue with the thread you are whinging about is logic. The word is "whining"... w-h-i-n-i-n-g. Not 'winging', not 'whinging', not 'wingeing'... w-h-i-n-i-n-g...Sheesh Add it to the list with dominant vs. dominate.

CalifChick -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 5:30:32 PM)
Actually, Calla, it is a word, and the definition is "whining." whinging Main Entry: Pronunciation: \ˈhwinj, ˈwinj\ Function: intransitive verb Inflected Form(s): whinged; whing·ing or whinge·ing Etymology: Middle English whingen, from Old English hwinsian;* akin to Old High German winsōn to moan Date: 12th century British : to complain fretfully : whine— whinge noun British

barelynangel -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 5:35:58 PM)
Bursts out laughing, this is actually priceless. Actually no, i know how to spell whining, when i said whinging its exactly what i meant. So NO, the word i was using was NOT whine. You should ask for a copy of merriam websters for Christmas. whinge One entry found. Main Entry: whinge [image]http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif[/image] Pronunciation: \ˈhwinj, ˈwinj\ Function: intransitive verb Inflected Form(s): whinged; whing·ing or whinge·ing Etymology: Middle English whingen, from Old English hwinsian;* akin to Old High German winsōn to moan Date: 12th century British : to complain fretfully : whine— whinge noun British Kinda sucks when you in your rush to correct end up looking like the idiot for not knowing a word and attempting to correct someone on their use of a perfectly accurate word. You also may want to try word of the day it may give you the knowledge that there are a lot of other words out there that you just may not know about. angel

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 5:36:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick Actually, Calla, it is a word, and the definition is "whining." whinging Main Entry: Pronunciation: \ˈhwinj, ˈwinj\ Function: intransitive verb Inflected Form(s): whinged; whing·ing or whinge·ing Etymology: Middle English whingen, from Old English hwinsian;* akin to Old High German winsōn to moan Date: 12th century British : to complain fretfully : whine— whinge noun British My bad... that's not one I've heard before.

barelynangel -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 5:44:13 PM)
grins, well i always get choose and chose wrong because i rush through typing, so you can be on the look out to correct that if you feel the need to correct that badly.

Padriag -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 6:53:06 PM)
Okay... just for fun.... We are presented with a confusing example. At first, is the case of a submissive suggesting to a dominant what protocols and rituals to use in the relationship. But then in the very next paragraph it changes to whether a submissive can spontaneously present themselves for use. Anyone see the problem with that? Protocols and rituals are entirely different from a spontaneous backrub. Protocols and rituals serve a specific purpose... they help establish the dynamic, the are reminders of control, they help reinforce the structure of the relationship. A spontaneous backrub, or suggesting a fuck might be nice does neither. See the difference? Puzzled, but not clear on what the OP was really talking about, I decided to let this play out a bit until the other proverbial shoe dropped. Meanwhile, much discussion ensued. I love what CatdeMedici wrote... quote: I'd be careful of hasty generalizations--as there are as many variables to relationship participation as there are snowflakes--though we do tend to fault what what we perceive as lazy Dominants---( not yours, I am simply saying what I've seen in past posts)--then we come back and say--what ever your model is, is your model. That's one of the problems with these sorts of rants... people tend to start filling in the missing blanks with their own baggage... and lots of assumptions follow... often bad ones. SailingBum wrote... quote: I must be missing the gist of this post. Once in awhile my girl will say something like.. "how can I improve my service to you?" I find it quite charming for her to think of our relationship in those terms. That she is actively looking for ways to make my life easier. What is not to like about that? I don't think you are the only one missing the gist of things here, in fact there seems to be a lot of confusion about just what this is about. But I agree with your point, and if that is all this were... someone trying to enhance their service... all would be well.... but there are some other things in the OP that don't quite fit that. One case was that of the protocols and rituals mentioned above. The other was this... quote: I obey - but I also do things pretty atonoumously, till he tells me to not do it. I wondered about that statement... by itself it sounds fairly innocent... but a little voice whispered there just might be more to it than that. But then FlamingRedhead wrote this... quote: The problem with trying to "help" people is that we usually have very little background information, and the majority of questions posed are of the ilk, "How do I get him to do this? or What should I do?" The information we give is, of course, biased because of our own relationship dynamics and experiences. Which just made me want to lick your brain... and other things. Very good observation... want a cookie? Meanwhile much of the rest of the ongoing debate revolved around whether a submissive could or should do creative things to please or not. Which is all fine and good, except a few important questions about that weren't being asked. And then the other shoe dropped. barelynangel wrote... quote: Tsatske, all you are doing is whinging because you don't like an opinion someone gave to someone else based on THEIR understanding of THEIR views. You took offense and ran with it stomping over here to have a kaniption because you do A, B, and C. You are doing in this thread exactly what someone posted that you took offense too. Well... now we know what sparked the rant. I suspect this other thread, where ever it was must have been fairly lengthy and ranged over several topics within the thread because the OP's rant seems to be a condenced (and therefore somewhat confused) version of that thread. But angel takes a shot at unravelling it a bit by first tackling that nagging issue of protocols and rituals I pointed out above when she writes... quote: I agree that a NEW slave should not be offering up suggestions if she is a slave. For example, the issue with the thread you are whinging about is logic. 1. The girl is in control all day, she has authority. 2. She has a hard time transforming at the end of the day. 3. Her Master decided rituals would be good 4. she should suggest some based on coming to a message board asking strangers? No, that would be kinda counter productive. Why? Because she is trying to find her submissive perception. What would be better than the Man who is her Master determining for her these rituals. Not only will doing the rituals help but the very fact she had no control over choosing, no thought process, or say in what she does would be an added bonus to her mindset she is trying to obtain. She will be reminded that within his home the control is not her own, not even the power of suggestion to him. Its not about a slave not thinking or not having thought process, its the concept of the dynamic she lives it. And she's correct... in a new M/s relationship one thing that must happen is surrender. There are myriad ways to achieve that, but in the example angel presents she is correct that a submissive making up their own protocols, rituals and rules is going to be counterproductive because in reality they aren't surrendering, they're still exerting control. And then there's that other thing that bothered me which angel sums up when she wrote... quote: I would think a slave choosing to do as she pleases until such time he tells her its displeasing to me is attempting to manipulate him hoping he will just accept it instead of negate it. The OP's rather innocent sounding assertion that she does things until she is told not too bugged me. Above I alluded to some important questions, which weren't being asked, about submissives doing creative, spontaneous things. Here's one of those questions. Why are they doing it? The assumption most take is the obvious one... to please the dominant. But, sometimes people do things they haven't been specifically told not to do as a form of exerting control... authority. Now if the relationship is supposed to be a TPE, M/s relationship (especially a new one)... the slave passively and subtely exerting authority does seem kind of counter productive, doesn't it. (Note the complete lack of a question mark there) It would be very tiring for a dominant to have to constantly correct a submissive telling them not to do this and not to do that, until by process of elimination... the relationship dies. The OP suggested that a submissive ought to be working to improve the relationship, I agree. That includes going a step further than simply doing something until told not too. It means not only considering what they might do to improve their service... but what they shouldn't do... and in both cases seeking out their dominant's opinion on the matter rather than the advice of online strangers. Which is apparently how all this got started... with the conflicting opinions of online strangers. What a whacky world we live in.

agirl -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 7:04:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: agirl No, I don't faff about trying to work out what he wants. If he wants something, he is a sensible, able adult that can ask for it. Am I missing something here? agirl Yes. That many owners, like most people, enjoy it when someone they love expresses their love and devotation in completely unordered and unexpected way. Your way works for you but surely you can see how your post in condesending to others who don't work that way. Val doesn't need to reminded of anything but that doesn't diminish the fact that he enjoys when I randomly present myself. If your chap enjoys that, then more power to his elbow. If M enjoyed it, he'd make it plain. I wasn't speaking of most people, I was speaking of US. If your Val is happy with your service, then all is well, surely? I'm not at ALL condescending about what you or others' do and in fact was quite oblivious until you mentioned it. You obviously are content, and so am I. Is there a problem? Sometimes the action is sweeter when uncalled for. That doesn't work for you - great. You don't "need" it. But to believe that those who do things differently must "need to be reminded" or aren't "sensible adults" who can't ask for things they need is patrionizing and gives your style of relationship airs. Don't get too carried away here. I'm stating my views on the basis of MY relationship I haven't given it any airs. If the action is sweeter for YOU or anyone else because it's uncalled for, then wonderful. You quoted MY thoughts and MY views.....I wasn't aware that I was speaking for anyone else nor did I imply it. It could also be very much appreciated to be attended to AS and when you require it, without uninvited input. You seem to assume that it's what I need, It's US , not I. I'm glad what you have works for you. It's not something I could ever have because I would miserable without being able to randomly express my love by offering a backrub or buying him a bag of gummi bears. It's the way I am and I highly doubt that doing these things means he would otherwise forget he knows me. In fact touches the collar she was given tonight I'm pretty damn sure he'd never be able to forget that... Thank you, yes it does, though I'd add, for us, not me. Edited to add: I really don't understand that "you don't suggest anything" response because it assumes that the person in is a particular type of relationship that you haven't been told they are in. It's same as the "why the hell are you asking strangers this, your owner must be so ashamed of you!". When someone posts something, unless they say otherwise, I try to assume that they are in a relationship where suggesting new things is allowed or where the owner wouldn't care the question was posted. If in doubt, before scolding, I try to ask.

Lordandmaster -> RE: How can I give you what is already yours? (12/11/2008 7:08:51 PM)
What are your hidden questions? I agree with everything you said. A slave is an owned human being, not an owned piece of furniture, and we own slaves for something they have that furniture doesn't: a mind. quote: ORIGINAL: tsatske On another site I'm on, some Master had the termitity to try to start a thread about how much they liked it when their slave presented themselves boldly to Master for sexual use - only to get told 'He doesn't need me to tell him he can use me - I am his property. I am not a DoMe sub like that.' Okay, then, go sit in a corner till Master wants you. HOpe he has some good pron to get his juices flowing, cause apparently it's 'unslavey' of you to do it. Why is it 'unslavey' to suggest a rule? To ask to get beaten? I have needs to. He knows he is the Master - he can say no all he wants. In fact, he does, quite often. Another thing he does that is HIGHLY annoying, (must start another thread in ask a peach about how to train him out of that nasy habit) - He tends to give me - something somewhat like what I asked for! LOL. DAMN HIM. But I just don't get that being a slave relieves me of having to WORK at having a good relatinship. What is this 'slaves should do nothing till they are ordered to' crap, anyway? I obey - but I also do things pretty atonoumously, till he tells me to not do it. I know He is Dom enough that I don't have to sit in a corner and twiddle my thumbs for fear that doing something will displease him - If I displease him, he knows how to let me know. I often do things to serve him without him being asked to. A little gift - a gift of what he already owns. And a risk on my part - he might not like it, might say, 'don't do that again.' But, for a chance to please him - SO WORTH the risk. Okay - there really are some questions hidden in that rant, feel free to ferrett them out. </rant>

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