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It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your slaves? - 12/20/2008 4:16:27 PM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		Anyone who has taken the time to study disciplinary techniques these days ought to know by now punishment teaches only one lesson:  Don' get caught. 

What do you consider to be a punishment?  What purpose does it serve?  Prison is not a punishment despite what many believe.  It does not teach any valuable lesson.  It simply keeps criminals out of contact with non-criminals whose rights they might otherwise be tempted to violate. 

I say this as a confirmed sadist.  I do not believe that punishment or even rewards for that matter do any good in creating or maintaining discipline.  I believe that slaves want to be controlled and that if they are treated properly, and the level of communication is of a high quality, then barring some damage from prior to the development of the M/s relationship, they simply will be obedient.  If they know their place and what is expected of them and that remains consistent, then why should they act out?  In my home pain is only for those who are well behaved, and punishment simply does not exist. I have yet to have any real problems stemming from this policy.

There can be no doubt that maintaining discipline is important, but is punishing the way to do it or is it just a convenient excuse to be sadistic?  What is your opinion?

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 12/20/2008 4:19:22 PM >

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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:17:14 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I find that being forced to eat hot apple pie with double cream poured on top is a good punishment  .

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 12/20/2008 4:23:25 PM >

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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:20:40 PM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
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Status: offline 		Whups.. My error.  Next time perhaps I should read what I typed before submitting.  Apparently my brain was already working on some other part of the post. Fixed now.



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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:22:01 PM   
kittinSol


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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:22:58 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Stone the fucking crows! Holy flying duck shit! Yyyyyyyou mean to tell me I went to bed last night in the 21st centurary and woke up an hour ago to find it's the 22nd centurary????........ 

I don't give a flying fig eating fruit farting sugar glider whet century or even millenium it is, sub/slaves disobey they get punished! 

No No No OP you do not get away with it so easy. You definately posted the heading as:  It is the 22nd century.  Do you still punish your slaves? No way are you getting away with that untill you heave me a cold Fosters and a kilo of prawns for the BBQ (of which you are welcome to come and share)..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 12/20/2008 4:27:56 PM >

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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:25:07 PM   
Maxwell67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
I don't give a flying fig eating fruit farting sugar glider whet century or even millenium it is, sub/slaves disobey they get punished!



Yes, well that seems obvious.  So many people talk about it.  But WHY?  Why punish if it does no good?  Are you simply asserting your authority?  Do you really feel a need to do that?  Are you that insecure?

Oh you are quite correct, of course, I did mis-type my heading, but I was able to fix it.  But I can be generous and relatively good-natured about such things so while I cannot deliver the Fosters and prawns through my ISP connection, next time I am in the neighborhood, I will see to it you get them.


< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 12/20/2008 4:32:51 PM >

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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:32:14 PM   
Maxwell67


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Status: offline 		And now removing the double post..hehe.. Seems that I am fallible, obviously.  And willing to listen to reason also, so really, I am interested in knowing what makes punishment a real option in maintaining discipline?  Once there was a time when people were thought to be inherently lazy and untrustworthy and punishment is derived from that assumption.  Today we know this is not really true.  So it seems there is no use for punishment any more.  

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 12/20/2008 4:57:18 PM >

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RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:34:04 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

There can be no doubt that maintaining discipline is important, but is punishing the way to do it or is it just a convenient excuse to be sadistic?

There is no singular "way" for maintaining discipline.  Discipline is multi-faceted and multi-dimensional.  Reducing the discussion to a single aspect (punishment) is a fatally flawed argument from the very beginning.

Punishments do have a role.  So do rewards.  So do command structures.  So do rules. So do protocols.  So do communications.


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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:38:31 PM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
I don't give a flying fig eating fruit farting sugar glider whet century or even millenium it is, sub/slaves disobey they get punished!



Yes, well that seems obvious.  So many people talk about it.  But WHY?  Why punish if it does no good?  Are you simply asserting your authority?  Do you really feel a need to do that?  Are you that insecure?

Oh you are quite correct, of course, I did mis-type my heading, but I was able to fix it.  But I can be generous and relatively good-natured about such things so while I cannot deliver the Fosters and prawns through my ISP connection, next time I am in the neighborhood, I will see to it you get them.



Punishment does not equate with brutality. Disobedience does not also equate with deliberate.  A crime occurs (disobedience) and punishment must be seen to be done (basic underpinning of authority in any walk of life). HOWEVER the punishment needs to suit the offence. First ascertain why the disobedience occurred. Lack or understanding instructions, not hearing a command etc. Then re-educate and correct procedure if needs be. Thus punishment may be redoing something and additional practice if required. The harshest punishment for most slaves is the gut ripping knowledge that they have bee found wanting or displeasing. Not rocket science really just use similar techniques as you do for kids and dogs. Ignore some formal form of punishment and you will loose respect and bang the M/s dynamic is cracked. Don’t know about subs, they are a mystery to me.

The humour and spirit of fun is well taken and accepted. My home and I wish you and yours a great holiday season..


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Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:39:01 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		In my world, the purpose of punishment is to make sure that something doesn't happen a second time.  And the best punishment is one that achieves its purpose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

What purpose does it serve?

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RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:40:53 PM   
Maxwell67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

There can be no doubt that maintaining discipline is important, but is punishing the way to do it or is it just a convenient excuse to be sadistic?

There is no singular "way" for maintaining discipline.  Discipline is multi-faceted and multi-dimensional.  Reducing the discussion to a single aspect (punishment) is a fatally flawed argument from the very beginning.

Punishments do have a role.  So do rewards.  So do command structures.  So do rules. So do protocols.  So do communications.


That mode of thinking is very outdated as anyone with a background in systems theory can tell you.  Just because punishment are still in use does not make them a good option.  What do you hope to teach by punishing your slaves?  I suppose if you want them to fear you then it would do that, but I have never seen a point in having Mine fear me.  Fear precludes trust.  I will take trust over fear any day.


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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:49:50 PM   
Maxwell67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Punishment does not equate with brutality. Disobedience does not also equate with deliberate.  A crime occurs (disobedience) and punishment must be seen to be done (basic underpinning of authority in any walk of life). HOWEVER the punishment needs to suit the offence. First ascertain why the disobedience occurred. Lack or understanding instructions, not hearing a command etc. Then re-educate and correct procedure if needs be. Thus punishment may be redoing something and additional practice if required. The harshest punishment for most slaves is the gut ripping knowledge that they have bee found wanting or displeasing. Not rocket science really just use similar techniques as you do for kids and dogs. Ignore some formal form of punishment and you will loose respect and bang the M/s dynamic is cracked. Don’t know about subs, they are a mystery to me.



Now this is the sort of thing I was hoping to be able to discuss, thanks.  I think maybe there is a difference in semantics here about the meaning of punishment.  I would rather not argue semantics, though so I will focus on the need for punishment to establish authority, which does really seem like a strong argument from the outset.  I think that I can establish authority by providing a powerful vision, a well organized plan and a demonstrated ability to adapt when things do not go according to that plan (which happens a lot).  I have only been working on this model for a short time, but so far it has not failed me.  I may be an anomaly or it may be that not enough time has passed, but so far I have not found a need to punish mine.  I provide vision and guidance, I lead by example, and I am a very creative sadistic top.  So far those qualities have been enough.

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 12/20/2008 4:51:45 PM >

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RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:51:05 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Just because punishment are still in use does not make them a good option.

Punishments are a good option when they work.  They are a bad option when they do not.


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RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:51:56 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

Anyone who has taken the time to study disciplinary techniques these days ought to know by now punishment teaches only one lesson:  Don' get caught. 


If done properly it teaches there are consequences to one's actions.

quote:


What do you consider to be a punishment?  What purpose does it serve?  Prison is not a punishment despite what many believe.  It does not teach any valuable lesson.  It simply keeps criminals out of contact with non-criminals whose rights they might otherwise be tempted to violate. 


It serves as a negative consequence to an incorrect choice. Punishment can be anything from an actual whipping, writing an essay, having certain things taken away, only allowed to crawl and not speak for an extended period of time, etc. The punishment would be determined by the actions and the slave. There is no one size fits all punishment. Punishment must be coupled with education for there to be any rehabilitation of the subject.

quote:


I say this as a confirmed sadist.  I do not believe that punishment or even rewards for that matter do any good in creating or maintaining discipline.  I believe that slaves want to be controlled and that if they are treated properly, and the level of communication is of a high quality, then barring some damage from prior to the development of the M/s relationship, they simply will be obedient.  If they know their place and what is expected of them and that remains consistent, then why should they act out?  In my home pain is only for those who are well behaved, and punishment simply does not exist. I have yet to have any real problems stemming from this policy.


Being a sadist has little to do with it. If you will do some research you will find that punishment/reward systems as a part of a behavioral modification system can and do work. Cognitive Behavioral Techniques can be quite effective. I used to bite my nails, so I put a thick rubber band around my wrist. Whenever I noticed I was biting my nails without thinking, I popped myself hard with the rubberband. This redirected my thoughts to the pain of the rubberband, so that I could may an active decision instead of a subconscious one.

quote:


There can be no doubt that maintaining discipline is important, but is punishing the way to do it or is it just a convenient excuse to be sadistic?  What is your opinion?


My opinion is that when the proper tool is used on the proper problem, it can be fixed. It is seeing that there are many tools that may fix a problem, and selecting the one that best fits for the situation and those involved.

It is also my belief that some slaves need to feel a strong hand behind the lash on occasion, not so much as a form of punishment but to remind them of who and what they are.



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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:53:06 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I will focus on the need to punishment to establish authority

Anyone who punishes to establish authority is a damn fool.

Punishment is about correcting bad behavior.  If it becomes about anything else, then, yes, it will fail.


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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 4:55:53 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
I don't give a flying fig eating fruit farting sugar glider whet century or even millenium it is, sub/slaves disobey they get punished!



Yes, well that seems obvious.  So many people talk about it.  But WHY?  Why punish if it does no good? 


It can work as a deterrent if it's intense and also non-erotic.  Why do you think it would not? My former punished with bad pain, not the fun, erotic, hitting/caning, but something a sub would never want to happen to her again. Like ice packed in the panties, and then, when it's all melted, re-pack, repeat. (Checking periodically, of course,  for frostbite to keep it all safe.)   If you want to know what something like that feels like, plunge your hand into a bowl of cold water filled with ice cubes...and leave it there. It's very hard to eroticize something like that. 

In general society, "don't get caught" is the rule, but do you think that's equally so in M/s relationships? Usually the slave wants to obey, or, if s/he doesn't, wants to confess, as it's stressful to carry on deception.

Sure, submissives want to obey, but it's not always that easy. Some of us have, as I saw the term used on another thread, "boundary issues," meaning something like this: we're out with our vanilla girlfriend shopping or whatever, and master said "be back by X o'clock" but girlfriend has issues she wants to talk about or can't find what she's looking for, and it's a present for my master and important to her and suddenly it's past X o'clock, and you call asking, "where the HELL are you?" And she stutters, "Um..." And girlfriend's sitting in the car with her and trying to interfere in the conversation, insisting that you can stay out as long as you want, argh-lol.  But basically she got lost in the situation: her girlfriend's needs became more important than your order because her girlfriend was right there putting pressure on her. It's disobedience, you don't want it to happen again, it's likely that it will because she has a hard time saying "No" to anybody let alone her vanilla friends who don't understand the rigid need to be home at a particular time.  So you need to punish in some way so she won't do it again. Disapproval works well as punishment this sort of borderline situation, which isn't conscious intentionally premediated disobedience.  Ice or something equally harrowing is probably better for the latter.

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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 5:17:53 PM   
Maxwell67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal
Sure, submissives want to obey, but it's not always that easy. Some of us have, as I saw the term used on another thread, "boundary issues," meaning something like this: we're out with our vanilla girlfriend shopping or whatever, and master said "be back by X o'clock" but girlfriend has issues she wants to talk about or can't find what she's looking for, and it's a present for my master and important to her and suddenly it's past X o'clock, and you call asking, "where the HELL are you?" And she stutters, "Um..." And girlfriend's sitting in the car with her and trying to interfere in the conversation, insisting that you can stay out as long as you want, argh-lol.  But basically she got lost in the situation: her girlfriend's needs became more important than your order because her girlfriend was right there putting pressure on her. It's disobedience, you don't want it to happen again, it's likely that it will because she has a hard time saying "No" to anybody let alone her vanilla friends who don't understand the rigid need to be home at a particular time.  So you need to punish in some way so she won't do it again. Disapproval works well as punishment this sort of borderline situation, which isn't conscious intentionally premediated disobedience.  Ice or something equally harrowing is probably better for the latter.


This is a problem stemming from not really understanding how priorities work nor how this occasion might become the precedent for problems later.  It would appear to me that the slave in this example needs to see what her actions do to the household as a unit, and the harm that can cause.  It might take some explaining, but to simply punish without making this clear will not keep the problem from repeating either.  And if simply explaining will do the trick, then why bother to punish?  There are other ways to show that there are consequences to ones actions and a well told story will go farther than ice in ones panties to drive that home. 

I suppose that it would help if I were to say that I have established a system of upholding a certain level of "household dignity" or is suppose if you are familiar with the term: 'face'  And that once that concept is understood, it become far easier to avoid seeing any need to punish.  I find it is more likely that I have to calm, down Mine when they have erred because they already feel more terrible about it than I could have made them feel with a punishment.  In these cases, then I might administer some task for them, so that they can restore their personal sens of face, but where in other households that task might be seen as a punishment, in mine it is not.


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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 5:30:22 PM   
SirMIkeSD


Posts: 613
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From: San Diego, Ca
Status: offline 		To each his own and what works for one may not work for another. I punish at times and that's my choice, at other times I use something else. It all depends on what is going on and why.

But in the end it's what works for my boy and I and I don't care if it's the 21st or 24 and half century.

Mike

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RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 6:16:36 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
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Status: offline 		This discussion is too small-picture.  Of course actually "dealing with things" is more likely to produce improvements than punishing.  Instead, look big-picture.  For many people, being punished means (1) someone cares enough about me to pay attention and invest time, and (2) there's someone in my life who is strong and unwavering, even if I am not.  It's an investment in the morale of a certain type of relationship.  It's not productive to think about these things just in terms of events and offenses.  The issue is process.


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RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 6:25:31 PM   
VampiresLair


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
What do you consider to be a punishment?  What purpose does it serve?

There can be no doubt that maintaining discipline is important, but is punishing the way to do it or is it just a convenient excuse to be sadistic?  What is your opinion?

I do not need an excuse to be sadistic. I am capable of punishing, though I choose not to. For me, punishment is to be avoided unless someone seriously disobeys. I have not had problems with Fox, so I have not had to broach the punishment topic with him. With others, it has been anything from extended refusal of physical contact, to writing lines, to corner time. Associating the consequence with the disobedience is the idea. Not not to get caught, its fairly difficult to neglect your chores and not get caught, or to be required to do something and not do it and not get caught. However, putting the concern of a punishment for not getting what you need to do isnt something I want to have to do. No one is perfect, which is why I avoid the punishing for minor mistakes. I will only punish for willful disobedeience, and it will definately not be pleasant.

DV



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