RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your slaves?

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RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 7:27:46 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

I do better with positive reinforcement and very gentle negative reinforcement. However any parent will tell you that upon occasion the carrot just doesn't work and grounding them, taking away the video games etc does. If you are always late to work, being put on probation and informed that you will lose your position will either get you to set your alarm for earlier or look for a new job.

Negative reinforcement has its place. Positive does also.

_____________________________

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(in reply to VampiresLair)

Post #: 21

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 7:34:59 PM

erebus

Posts: 169
Joined: 1/15/2004
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What an odd question. Are we discussing penal policy or bdsm? I only care about the latter, tbh. Leave the other stuff to the liberal professors who say the way to save money is to open all the prisons. Charlie Manson, I'm sure, would be on his best behavior.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 22

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 7:53:21 PM

Timoty

Posts: 15
Joined: 11/1/2008
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There are already so many lengthy and precise comments that I can't add too much, however, I agree that punishment (not as defined by the questioner as to establish authority because that is gained through the entire dynamics of the relationship and actually starts with trust. But rather punishment used when most or all other methods are not working, or, the situation is critical enough to call for quick and defined consequences) is to be used sparingly and should only fit the "crime". I also agree that most of the original theory is based around physical punishment and does not address the other types which I find much more effective. For example, my girl will "feel" the punishment of a look, or, temporary banishment, or, other non-physical punishments. But, she also knows that there are certain behaviors that will not be tolerated in any form, at any time. Have we ever encountered one of these situations? Yes, once. Only once. The question is, do I really care to find out if it were the punishment that stopped the behavior from ever happening again? Or, was it the talk that we had afterward? Or, was it just a momentary mind blip that would have never happened again no matter what I did or did not do? Does it really matter? Lastly, I agree that discussing the effectiveness of punishment in complete isolation, and, with such a narrowly defined context, as compared to a vast realm of other techniques is counter-intuitive and unproductive. The entire arsenal of human relations and conditioning tools must be employed on a continual basis to produce healthy slaves and healthy relationships. The original question seemed to make it an either, or, situation and it is not when applied in real life situations.

All that being said, if we are so smart in the modern age (regardless of century) and presume to know that so many things are eople no longer effective, and, we know the "better" way to handle people, why do so many people feel that there is a general malaise within our society caused by lack of personal control, manners, discipline, and respect. Can the cause possibly be related, in part, to our better ways of teaching and "programming" our young without the use of punishments, consequences, or self-responsibility? Just because it is new, or, some experts in the modern world say it is true, does not make it so. End of small rant.

(in reply to VampiresLair)

Post #: 23

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 10:00:25 PM

greeneyedreamer

Posts: 442
Joined: 6/20/2007
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quote:

I believe that slaves want to be controlled and that if they are treated properly, and the level of communication is of a high quality, then barring some damage from prior to the development of the M/s relationship, they simply will be obedient.

Personally, I do have to agree here. I obey simply because I want to please. Not because of punishment or lack there of. By the way, I am never punished. Although, I do believe the quiet sitting and discussing would be enough to make me want to cry. If I simply know I have done something wrong, it's like an internal punishment.

Dreamer

_____________________________

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I am still learning... Michelangelo, age 87

Maybe some women weren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they are suppose to run wild until they find someone just as wild to run with. Sex and the City

(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 24

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 10:01:52 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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Well there can be no denying that most people are simply horrible at training behavior and make an entire mess out of the process of those dynamics.

But we shouldn't then go over the edge and say they have no use whatsoever. They CAN be extremely effective methods of behavior training when applied properly.

Unfortunately while flogging someone decently can take a half hour to teach, good behavior dynamic training tends to take years and is explained a tenth of the time that flogging is.

_____________________________

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(in reply to VampiresLair)

Post #: 25

RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/20/2008 10:56:07 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

This discussion is too small-picture. Of course actually "dealing with things" is more likely to produce improvements than punishing. Instead, look big-picture. For many people, being punished means (1) someone cares enough about me to pay attention and invest time, and (2) there's someone in my life who is strong and unwavering, even if I am not. It's an investment in the morale of a certain type of relationship. It's not productive to think about these things just in terms of events and offenses. The issue is process.

I completely agree. In the past, punishment was the language I understood and was very effective. They didn't solve a particular problem. They were a consequence to an offense, used in conjunction with discussion, reflection and direction to ensure lessons were taught so as to prevent a repeat of the problem. In my former slavery, I was punished for infractions. Such punishments varied depending on the offense - was it a disobedient act or did I simply err or forget something? Was it an issue of disrespect, or was I simply struggling with new structures? Lots to be reviewed and understood. But they did help me cleanse myself of guilt. They helped me feel safe within the reinforced boundaries. They established a consequence that would leave a lasting imprint on my mind.

I do not believe I would respond to punishments now as I did in the past. My way of thinking is too different. The man I'm seeing now does not dole punishments; rather, he has said if I ever do blow it he's more likely to talk to me about it and then have me spend some quiet time meditating on it. This is more up my alley now, as an actual punishment would be more likely to hurt me emotionally these days. I respond to berating and negative reinforcement much more negatively than I ever have before. I suspect it's not a language I understand anymore.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 26

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/21/2008 4:30:24 AM

HeavansKeeper

Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

Anyone who has taken the time to study disciplinary techniques these days ought to know by now punishment teaches only one lesson: Don' get caught.

What do you consider to be a punishment? What purpose does it serve? Prison is not a punishment despite what many believe. It does not teach any valuable lesson. It simply keeps criminals out of contact with non-criminals whose rights they might otherwise be tempted to violate.

I say this as a confirmed sadist. I do not believe that punishment or even rewards for that matter do any good in creating or maintaining discipline. I believe that slaves want to be controlled and that if they are treated properly, and the level of communication is of a high quality, then barring some damage from prior to the development of the M/s relationship, they simply will be obedient. If they know their place and what is expected of them and that remains consistent, then why should they act out? In my home pain is only for those who are well behaved, and punishment simply does not exist. I have yet to have any real problems stemming from this policy.

There can be no doubt that maintaining discipline is important, but is punishing the way to do it or is it just a convenient excuse to be sadistic? What is your opinion?

I'll start by agreeing that prison is not a punishment, nor does it serve in any rehabilitative manner. I'm sure there are exceptions. I wanted to get that out of the way.

I do believe punishment and reward matter in the creation of disciplines. In fact, I believe they are the only two forces. When I say "disciplines" I am not talking about conformity to protocol. I am speaking of repeated events intended to better a person. If a slave is told to practice piano for 30 minutes a day (or do Kegel flexes), that is a discipline. While "developing" the discipline is rarely done with rewards and punishments, that's because the human mind can understand more complex devices. Animals need to have their behaviors "shaped" and in that sense, the discipline (let's say sitting when told to) is taught through reward. A human can be told "Sit in the chair when I tell you too, and you'll be rewarded." The reward does not have to be so explicit, and rarely is. Most of a slave's reward in knowing master is happy. Sometimes its cookies.

Communication is key. There's no question there. I tell My Pet that she is expected to be open and honest about feelings and thoughts, and in return I've promised her an environment which will be supportive and never judgmental. She will fail, she will need clarifications, she will have questions. If I don't do my part in bolstering her learning, she will shy away. If I yell when she fails, the system breaks down. That said, punishment is still a very effective manner of preventing behavior. However, the dog has to know why they're being punished. I could just beat the poor girly, but that has no preventative merit.

While you prize communication and dismiss punishments and reward, you missed a key issue: They're the same. Any slave will tell you, the worst punishment is master telling them they've failed and need to do better. The best reward is praise for a job well done.

I don't see much growth coming from the system, as you describe it. It seems like the "slave" is a complete unit. It is as the factory made it, and no amount of behaviorism will change it. I suppose there are people who are already "good" slaves, but then there are people new to D/s. The first time girly sucks off a stranger will not be the product of her innate need to serve, but of a developed sense of obedience, in which I say-she does.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 27

RE: It is the 22nd century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/21/2008 4:36:21 AM

sirsholly

Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

I will focus on the need to punishment to establish authority

Anyone who punishes to establish authority is a damn fool.

Punishment is about correcting bad behavior. If it becomes about anything else, then, yes, it will fail.

Very well said!

_____________________________

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Post #: 28

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/21/2008 11:40:52 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timoty

All that being said, if we are so smart in the modern age (regardless of century) and presume to know that so many things are eople no longer effective, and, we know the "better" way to handle people, why do so many people feel that there is a general malaise within our society caused by lack of personal control, manners, discipline, and respect. Can the cause possibly be related, in part, to our better ways of teaching and "programming" our young without the use of punishments, consequences, or self-responsibility? Just because it is new, or, some experts in the modern world say it is true, does not make it so. End of small rant.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953)."

Thought to be by Socrates, known to have been written during the Greek era B.C.E., apparently the malaise of the modern age was also the malaise of the ancient one.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Timoty)

Post #: 29

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/21/2008 2:25:43 PM

ThundersCry

Posts: 892
Status: offline

I suppose fuckin` her is punishment...enough

(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 30

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/21/2008 8:21:06 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: erebus
What an odd question. Are we discussing penal policy or bdsm?

We're discussing how best to motivate human beings.

However the op made a statement I missed the first time. How best to punish in order to establish authority. The answer to that is simple, if you don't have authority then you cannot punish. You can't walk up to a stranger in the street and tell them you are docking their salary if they aren't employed by you.

Unless and until a submissive commits, a prospective dominant cannot punish. They can act like pouting children however, threatening to take their ball and bat and go home because the other person won't play by their rules. And that's both fine and welcome, since pouting dominants aren't usually welcome anyway.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to erebus)

Post #: 31

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/21/2008 9:02:06 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

However the op made a statement I missed the first time. How best to punish in order to establish authority. The answer to that is simple, if you don't have authority then you cannot punish. You can't walk up to a stranger in the street and tell them you are docking their salary if they aren't employed by you.

Unless and until a submissive commits, a prospective dominant cannot punish. They can act like pouting children however, threatening to take their ball and bat and go home because the other person won't play by their rules. And that's both fine and welcome, since pouting dominants aren't usually welcome anyway.

Great point and one which I missed also. I excersise my authority over a slave in order to punish, disclipline, correct and teach. I can only do so because of the submission I have been given even if it be for the period of a training course or workshop or for as long as the owner of a siub/slave allows it unless either I, Lady Neets or Bruin Cottage is the owner

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 32

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/21/2008 9:14:06 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

The prime reason to use positive or negative reinforcement is motivation. You can't correct the problem with a punishment or reward, but you can motivate them to correct the problem. Good communication skills only do so much, because sometimes people need a quick kick in the ass to go "Okay, wow, this guy is serious about this.", particularly people who's personality is geared toward external structure provided by another. After identifying the behavior, the question I ask myself is "What can I do to motivate this person to change this behavior?" instead of "What can I do to fix this behavior?" and certainly not "What horrible thing can I make this person endure for having displeased me?"

I got caught studying for school on the job at work one night when I was closing the market and I got a swift kick in the ass by my store manager. Three days of suspension in a time when I really needed the money. I haven't risked studying when I was done with my work and riding the clock since then.

I used to have a bad behavior of being late for my early morning shifts, but the damage it caused to my performance reviews and pay motivated me to correct it.

Both punishments were effective in modifying my behavior, because they worked off of things that were important to me. The first case also did a blow to my emotions. I was ashamed, embarrassed, and feeling quite foolish for getting suspended. I've found the most effective forms of punishment to be the ones that work off these two things.

Sometimes just the simple "Obey or Leave" type of conditional is enough to motivate someone to do what I want, but even so, initially I have to establish that I am serious about it by stringing chords with their emotions. I've managed to effectively control a drinking problem on a very small scale by establishing the conditional that the person could not talk or be with me if they were intoxicated. There is a whole other assortment of small issues and problems as well.

On another note, having clearly defined consequences to behaviors and actions also plays a part in establishing the structure that S-types crave and want from a dominant.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 33

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/21/2008 9:41:15 PM

submgreenbay

Posts: 69
Joined: 6/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The prime reason to use positive or negative reinforcement is motivation. You can't correct the problem with a punishment or reward, but you can motivate them to correct the problem. Good communication skills only do so much, because sometimes people need a quick kick in the ass to go "Okay, wow, this guy is serious about this.", particularly people who's personality is geared toward external structure provided by another. After identifying the behavior, the question I ask myself is "What can I do to motivate this person to change this behavior?" instead of "What can I do to fix this behavior?" and certainly not "What horrible thing can I make this person endure for having displeased me?"

Bingo. I do believe that classical conditioning can be effective. But beneath everything is that psychological level. That old right and wrong stuff, that were were brought up with. It's just like you said, an effective punishment needs thought behind it, not necessarily a heavy wack.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 34

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/22/2008 5:45:35 PM

Timoty

Posts: 15
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953)."

I used this very same quote when I was in school, so many years ago. LOL It is the same "problem" I had with my elders then and, in fact, it should be. There should be a natural discord between generations. Interestingly enough, it doesn't always swing in favor of more "liberal" philosophy. The discord is in reaction to the existing forces and may swing in either direction, making the actual struggle the main point, and, not the resultant shift in philosophy.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 35

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/23/2008 6:46:24 PM

xxblushesxx

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

I read half of the replies.
I have to say that in many ways I agree with the OP.
I *wish* I could be transparent with HM.
I *wish* I could tell Him everything, even when I mess up.
But I can't. He is quite demanding (even of Himself) and is very upset when people (including Him) do not live up to those expectations.
I don't actually get "punished" in the way that is implied, but, not living up to someone's expectations, and being told exactly why and exactly how is devastating to me.
I attempt to avoid that by not being transparent.
He also does not read what I write on these boards, so I will send this to Him.
I appreciate the post, OP, and understand what you are saying. There is a time and a place for punishment, but, as you have pointed out, I don't believe you will get the results you are looking for if that is your fall-back answer to problems.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to VampiresLair)

Post #: 36

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/23/2008 7:20:41 PM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

Anyone who has taken the time to study disciplinary techniques these days ought to know by now punishment teaches only one lesson: Don' get caught.

Surveillance.

_____________________________

Possibly.

(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 37

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/24/2008 12:09:19 PM

Soyokaze

Posts: 390
Joined: 4/1/2007
Status: offline

When I screw up, I usually am overly hard on myself mentally and let guilt cause me a lot of emotional pain. Being punished helps me deal with the guilt.

(in reply to Wolfie648)

Post #: 38

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/24/2008 9:57:42 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I agree here Soyokaze, I am much harder on myself than anyone is with me. I know I can be and am hard on my people until they get their shit wired (another of these quirky and amazing American phases which conveys nothing literally unless you want to electrically connect your feces to a power source) , However I also understand only too well that to attain the levels of excellence I strive for one needs to be some sort of deity which I certainly am not.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 12/24/2008 10:01:20 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Soyokaze)

Post #: 39

RE: It is the 21st century. Do you still punish your s... - 12/24/2008 10:14:10 PM

JRiddle

Posts: 36
Joined: 12/4/2008
From: Brevard County, Florida, USA
Status: offline

Since I am not a Master, I am not sure if my post is appropriate here.

To the OP, punishment, rewards, and authority are inseparable. IMHO, authority must be granted before being established. The difference between M/s, police/civilian, and General/Private First Class is how the authority was granted. Slaves grant the Master authority. Civilians concede authority to police by being in their jurisdiction. A General is granted the authority over the soldier by his boss. After authority is granted, it is established by setting rules, punishments, and rewards. Without the ability to punish, there is no authority. Punishment in my mind is defined as "consequences imposed after breaking a rule." This may be a disappointed glance, a discussion, or corporal punishment. Reward is what is given after following the rule. The goal is always to guide the individual toward better actions. Police are granted a variety of options to help motivate civilians to obey traffic laws. This may be a a simple discussion, written warning, ticket, or arrest. How much leeway varies. In case of speeding, a strong suggestion to have the speedometer inspected may be considered sufficient in certain instances.

For those that submit to my authority, punishment and reward vary depending upon the individual and circumstances. I have the responsibility to choose the most correct course of action. Each individual requires different levels of reward and punishment to attain the desired effect. Some require almost none of either one while others need more reinforcement of the rules. If I give the same rule to 3 people, it is possible for one to just follow it, another to need positive feedback to continue following it, and one to need negative consequences to obey. A slave in a M/s relationship may be less likely to require punishment than a strong willed sub, but the principle remains the same. While it may be possible to say that no punishment was required to establish and maintain authority in specific cases, it is not universally true. If excessive punishment is required in a BDSM relationship, careful consideration about "why" may be a wise course of action.

Authority and punishment are stuck together. One may not exist without at least the possibility of the other. M/s relationships exclude me by virtue of the complete authority exchange. The will to express complete authority and wield such punishment responsibilities is not found within me.

_____________________________

This post has been brought to you by an inexperienced amateur. -Jeremiah

(in reply to Soyokaze)

Post #: 40

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