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RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 2:56:28 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Paul Harvey is still alive and still doing radio, although his son seems to fill in for him a lot more nowadays. 


(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 3:05:58 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Damm cripples,how dare they foist their petty problems on us.

Why don`t they just go away?!



      As always, O59, your ignorance (or denial) of reality makes me smile.

      Merry Christmas to you as well.


      P.S.  I bet it's cold tonight in your part of the world.  How many physically handicapped bums will be sleeping in your living room?
Equal or greater than the number that will be sleeping in your living room, I'll bet.

And I note your "non-judgmentalism"; they're all "bums" in your galaxy, aren't they? I can't think of a way to say what I would like to without getting timed out.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 3:58:32 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

What do you suggest health care providers do about patients with no insurance or ability to pay who have serious chronic conditions that are expensive to treat?


Perhaps ask why they have their serious medical condition to start with, if the condition is caused by a failing of care, then I believe the system is duty bound to look after that person. Particularly ex service men and women who have fallen on hard times since they left the service. Interesting that many people who are ex service struggle the most when in civvy street, here a large proportion of the homeless are ex service people.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to MmeGigs)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 6:34:30 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
"The system"?

Define "the system". And should "the system" help certain people against their will? We used to have insane asylums wherein such people were committed, often against their will. Do you think we should we go back to that? I mean, if this guy was throwing feces around, what are they supposed to do.

And one reason that so many homeless are ex military is that a lot of people go into the military because they lack discipline in their lives, and they're seeking the parenting that their lives have always lacked. They're trying to get their heads screwed on straight... and just because people sign up and go into boot camp shouldn't mean that they automatically become government property for life, should it?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Perhaps ask why they have their serious medical condition to start with, if the condition is caused by a failing of care, then I believe the system is duty bound to look after that person. Particularly ex service men and women who have fallen on hard times since they left the service. Interesting that many people who are ex service struggle the most when in civvy street, here a large proportion of the homeless are ex service people.



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 6:44:17 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The problem Sanity, is that if the members of a society have agreed the principle of sharing the cost for things which the members thereof all benefit from but which no individual can provide for himself, then it becomes odd to hold that the same principle should not be extended to the provision of healthcare too, which is a prime candidate for such treatment and a far better candidate than many others who do benefit from such a sharing of the costs.

In other words, the onus is really on those who disagree with universal healthcare to make a sound and convincing argument against it, whilst not simultaneously undoing the principle involved which supports other programmes which they might support.

E

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RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 6:57:27 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        And when the "failure of care" is their own, Aneirin?  Diabetics who keep right on drinking malt liquor for breakfast?  Junkies, speed-freaks, and crackheads who keep bringing the resulting medical problems into the emergency rooms of hospitals, which are required to provide treatment?  Gang-bangers who get shot, or stabbed, and then roll through life, angry and demanding, entitled to our compassion and cash?

       Becoming homeless is a tragedy that could befall just about anybody.  Staying that way comes from choices, either direct, or as an obvious consequence of other ones.  Military vets are an interesting aspect of the discussion, but I'm going to choose to go to work.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 8:35:22 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Would it really bother you if someone who was either unable to pay into the system through no fault or their own, or wasn't because of their lifestyle got free care ? Me personally, I have no problem paying into a system of healthcare and knowing the non payers were receiving care, because if and when I become ill, the care will be there for me too.  Because I am not ill and there not taking valuable resources, I have no problem others getting the help they need, their status, I am not interested in, I do prefer to know people can get help when they need it.

What I believe in is everyone, payer or not should be entitled to basic healthcare, trauma care and care for common illnesses and injuries, anything extra, i.e. alternatives to standard procedures or cosmetic enhancement, those things should be available, but demand the paying of a charge, as they are not necessary. Cosmetic enhancement given to people who are mentally ill, i.e. their body or an item of their body is making them ill, that is a toughy, but I would say the treatment could be given if the patient is mentally ill enough to be self destructive because of the problem.

In this country, Britain, we have the National Health Service, the NHS, and long may it continue, that I have zero problem paying into and see it as one of the only things actually worth paying for in this country, because it is for everyone.
Because I don't actually need the healthcare at the moment, I have no problem paying in and take delight in the knowledge others are receiving the care they need.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 12/23/2008 8:41:15 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 8:48:52 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Would it really bother you if someone who was either unable to pay into the system through no fault or their own, or wasn't because of their lifestyle got free care ? Me personally, I have no problem paying into a system of healthcare and knowing the non payers were receiving care, because if and when I become ill, the care will be there for me too.  Because I am not ill and there not taking valuable resources, I have no problem others getting the help they need, their status, I am not interested in, I do prefer to know people can get help when they need it.



It's a tricky problem, Anerin.  Several counties in California are way over-burdened because of the supply/need ratio.  Hospitals have had to close due to lack of funds.  Many hospitals became overwhelmed due to the financial stress of providing care to the plethora of undocumented aliens who would cross the border for their care.  Our taxes can't support numbers we can't count.  Truly the system as it is, is not working effectively, and as a result, people will go without - either by being turned away at the door, or due to hospital closures in their areas.  Up in Redding, California, hospitals closed because they simply could no longer afford to pay for services for those who could not pay for themselves.  Now there are less services available for everyone.  I don't know the solution, but there is definitely a problem.

Years and years ago I worked for a private ambulance company, who operated under county protocol and who was watched and QA'd very  closely by county officials.  Night after night the paramedics picked homeless folks off the streets because someone had called 911 on a passed out drunk in public.  County protocol rules that the ambulance company doesn't get to decide who it cares for and who it doesn't, so unless the "patient" signs to refuse service, it's off to the hospital he/she goes, until the drunken stooper is slept off, and the patient goes back on the street.  This is clearly a misuse of medical care, and the cost of care skyrockets for everyone else.  Sure, then paramedics and ER staff would get frustrated, because other legitimate emergencies had to wait in line for services to become available, and there was nothing anyone could do.  Refusing to provide care was not an option.  A beligerant patient wreaking havok and making messes would receive a less than patient reaction because of the gravity of the problem.  While I naturally agree that abusing the patient is not an option, I can also understand how otherwise good and compassionate people might throw their hands in the air in frustration and aggravation, and how they might eventually become driven to behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't - it's all a symptom of a very big problem.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 9:10:34 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I agree about the problem regarding illegal aliens, we have that problem to a certain degree and they sap resources, but often it is when someone is found to be illegal, they are grassed to the authorities. But even with illegals, they should be entitled to basic healthcare, by pure human compassion for others. I know compassion does not get the bills paid, but I would rather someone is helped than turfed out on the street. I think it is a case of they get the care, then they get ejected from the country eventually, but either way, they are under the auspices of the authorities, where perhaps there may be funding available from europe for caught illegal immigrants.

Drunks here tend to get picked up by the police.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 9:15:17 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		We can try,at the very least.


The "dump them in the ally method" makes for a poor public policy though and shouldn`t be defended, in any context.

The "problem,...what problem?" and "get rid of`m" approach isn`t humane or civil either.

The "why don`t you let the homeless guy sleep at your house"(something I`ve done) or the" it`s someone else`s problem" approach also makes for poor public policy.

Thank god we have someone with courage coming into office.

We can`t get an honest discussion about health care out of the present bunch,let alone any effort to address it`s problems.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 12/23/2008 9:17:16 AM >

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President Obama

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 10:37:33 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I agree about the problem regarding illegal aliens, we have that problem to a certain degree and they sap resources, but often it is when someone is found to be illegal, they are grassed to the authorities. But even with illegals, they should be entitled to basic healthcare, by pure human compassion for others. I know compassion does not get the bills paid, but I would rather someone is helped than turfed out on the street. I think it is a case of they get the care, then they get ejected from the country eventually, but either way, they are under the auspices of the authorities, where perhaps there may be funding available from europe for caught illegal immigrants.

Drunks here tend to get picked up by the police.



Aneirin, we do have provision for medical care for illegal aliens and it's supposed to be "emergency care only."
Yet, we have illegals using hospital emergency rooms for all types of things including child birth which isn't an "emergency."
And the social workers and illegal alien "advocates" weasel these people into all kinds of medical care they they shouldn't be doing breaking many federal laws in the process.
We need to start prosecuting those social workers and "advocates" for medicaid fraud.
I know more than a few people, U.S. Citizens who work and pay taxes and don't have any type of healthcare plan.
If (they) go to the emergency room they get a big fat Bill to pay!
Where are all the "advocates" for the roughly 48 million U.S. Citizens who don't have healthcare?
Many of those 48 million pay taxes that provide  medical care for illegal aliens and pay for aids care in Africa and other foreign countries!
I have no problem with people donating their own funds for aids in Africa or other things like that I just don't think it should be done with Taxpayer dollars.
The "foreign aid" programs in Washington are *loaded* with scams.
The people who make money from them are lawyers, lobbyists and big corporations, the usual suspects.


_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 10:46:38 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

General reply:

       Jesus Holy Fucking Christ.  So which of you Pollyannas wants to bring this bum home for the rest of his life? 

     For those with all the helpful opinions, based on precisely no actual knowledge of anything but opinion, Skid Row is where the shelters and services are.  That's where the vans pick up on the cold nights, where the soup kitchens are, and the missions.  Where he told them he lived.

  


All the hospital had to do was network with another agency to cover their ass and the 'bum's'.  We got calls from police, hospital's and all sorts of places and then the engine went to work.  Clothes would be found, shelter would be arranged and there would be no need for what took place in this situation. It was an act of aggression to keep the 'bum' from going back to their hopsital.

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No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


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RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 12:14:16 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		General Reply.

Regarding Bums, down and outs, homeless, whatever name one wants to apply to a person who has fallen upon hard times, we are now in a period when their numbers will grow, not all will survive these present and forthcoming financial difficulties. Tell me, if you were surviving and your neighbour was struggling, what would you do, would you think of the good times and what a pal this guy or gal has been and help them as best you can, or would you look wholely to your own, be in the knowledge  that, your neighbour or 'ex' pal might be the very next person who ends up in skid row. Who knows, it might not be your pal or neighbour that hits seriously hard times, but you yourself, if it were you that were the future bum, homeless, down and out, would you accept the same attitude you have for these people now ?

One thing about these coming hard times I do welcome, is the education it will bring, for there is nothing like a taste of real life for one to understand just what is important in this world and what is not. I was in the past fairly wealthy, then I lost it all along with a marriage, an adopted family and very nearly my sanity, only then did I realise the reality of life, what it all means and what life is worth. One thing I did find out, those with nothing will extend their hand to help when those with everything will turn away, hiding behind words such as, ' There are people, organisations, to help those kind of people, or there should be something in place to do this that or the other '.No one ever thinks that we live in a world full of uncertainties, one day we can be wealthy, the next day we can be a pauper, it happens, and has happened quite recently and will happen again before we are out of this.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 4:24:50 PM   
MmeGigs


Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
quote:

What do you suggest health care providers do about patients with no insurance or ability to pay who have serious chronic conditions that are expensive to treat?

Perhaps ask why they have their serious medical condition to start with, if the condition is caused by a failing of care, then I believe the system is duty bound to look after that person.


What do you mean by a failing of care?  I think that in most cases there'd be no way to determine whether the condition was caused by heredity, lifestyle choices, or lack of access to preventive care and early intervention.  In most cases it's likely a combination of the three. 

I'm all for getting the most possible bang for our health care buck, but I wouldn't be in favor of any solution that tried to separate the deserving from the undeserving.  If we're going to do that we may as well leave things the way they are.  At least the criteria are objective.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 4:38:52 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Just out of interest, what's the cost of alcoholic beverages in the US, are they cheap or expensive as far as the average citizen goes ? Illnesses due to alcohol, or excessive alcohol are not helped by cheap and easy access to the stuff and for that matter injuries due to firearms are not helped by the easy access to those things either. How many hospital admissions per year are due to holes caused by bullets ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 4:55:28 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Greedy Top,

The radio guy's name is (was?) Paul Harvey.


Thanks!! I knew I had the last name right.. but could only think Steve Harvey which I knew was wrong....

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polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 10:35:01 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Just out of interest, what's the cost of alcoholic beverages in the US, are they cheap or expensive as far as the average citizen goes ? Illnesses due to alcohol, or excessive alcohol are not helped by cheap and easy access to the stuff



       As with anything else, Aneirin, booze prices vary widely, depending on quality.  Fortified crap wine is less than $2 a bottle, a tad more for a 40 ounce bottle of (8-9% alcohol) malt liquor.  Of course, crack, heroin and speed are pretty cheap, too.  Raise the price of booze, they'll just get loaded on those more often.  Addiction is THE defining characteristic of the US homeless population.  Mental illness is right behind.

      In broader terms, a six-pack of Bud runs about $4-5 (12-18-24 packs are the better buy).  My preferred evening adult beverage runs about $7 for a six-pack.  You can get a 750ml bottle of crap vodka for about $6, a nice, middle-shelf bourbon hovers around $20.  There is a good market of higher grade varieties of anything covering the $40-60 range.  A Christmas box of absinthe, including a sugar spoon and two glasses, was $55 for a friend we introduced to it on his last visit.  Single malt scotch can set you back a car payment.

       Frankly, I don't think much at all of the notion that we should drive up the prices for casual, social, and recommended daily allowance drinkers, in the foolish dream that it will help the hopelessly addicted.  Double the price of the "fix," they mug two old ladies.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 10:49:12 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		where are you getting Absinthe in the US, TH?

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Hollywood hospital dumps paraplegic on the street. - 12/23/2008 11:03:32 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        The ban is over, GT.  It is legal.  I bought it at Bev-Mo, along with big bottles of tequila, Bailey's and margarita mix.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 12/23/2008 11:05:33 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 79
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