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RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/2/2006 2:50:12 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

They mentioned bottoming from the top on The Sopranos back when Tony's sister Janice was seeing Ralphie Cifaretto. There was a scene where she was fucking him in the ass with a dildo and calling him a little bitch, then later on Tony asked about Ralphie and Janice said he bottoms from the top because he was in charge of that little scene.

Man, that show was hot sometimes. Did anyone else have a weird crush on Tony Soprano?

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to happypervert)

Post #: 21

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/2/2006 10:39:50 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Not everyone is a slave, that is willing too give up their choices or rights to make decisions for themselves. That doesn't make them any less a submissive or a bottom, then the person that does give up those choices.

Ummm...of course someone who is not willing to give up their rights and choices is less a submissive or a bottom than someone who gives those things up (all other things being equal). A submissive who submits more is more of a submissve. Giving things up is an act of submission.

Not that there is anything wrong with being less of a submissive, everyone is entitled to their own bliss, but those who give up more are indeed more of a submissive.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 22

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/3/2006 3:05:11 AM

fldrkhorse

Posts: 158
Joined: 11/5/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

This a term thats always bothered me for a few reasons. Male subs use this term as sort of a competiton, as in they (the bottom) are in charge and are orchestrating the event. For some it's just too easy just to be the receiver, they also have to encroach (sorry, but it is still football season) on the head space of the DOM. For some it's just necessary to be the "back seat driver." Not only is it wasted energy and wasted effort because the DOM will always be the DOM, but this competition or attempt to manipulate the boundaries of there the DOM ends and the sub begins seems undermine, undo, even harm the situation. For me, if you're gonna be the bottom be the bottom. There can only be and should only be one top.

_____________________________

I'm not where I need to be, but I'm better than I was yesterday.

Namaste, I honor the divine in you

(in reply to MHOO314)

Post #: 23

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/3/2006 4:27:54 AM

jamesthehumanrug

Posts: 668
Joined: 10/21/2005
Status: offline

greetings m who
you are funny
frankly my dear...
if they dont know me i figure they cant love me
and if you have to ask; demand as a bottom
what the hell;
youre desperate!
same goes for a top bottoming out.
i think the latter is sad and pathetic
and it would put a wet rag on my good cum-time, for sure
you can see rite thru it; cant you ?!

< Message edited by jamesthehumanrug -- 1/3/2006 4:30:05 AM >

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I REMAIN RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED
,LOVEles,
jamesthehumanrug

(in reply to MHOO314)

Post #: 24

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/3/2006 5:53:29 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Ummm...of course someone who is not willing to give up their rights and choices is less a submissive or a bottom than someone who gives those things up (all other things being equal). A submissive who submits more is more of a submissve. Giving things up is an act of submission.

Not that there is anything wrong with being less of a submissive, everyone is entitled to their own bliss, but those who give up more are indeed more of a submissive.

Taggard

But it's somewhat impossible to rank those things. Is someone submitting MORE because they give up what they wear and another doesn't? We all have different values, priorities, attachments. It's impossible to judge or rank based on simple acts of submission. It's also true that it depends on the particular relationship they have with the other person.

And dominants CAN and DO give up things as well, for the relationship and even for the submissive. That certainly doesn't make them a submissive.

It's too simplistic to say "if you give up more then you are more submissive."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 25

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/3/2006 7:20:26 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Ummm...of course someone who is not willing to give up their rights and choices is less a submissive or a bottom than someone who gives those things up (all other things being equal). A submissive who submits more is more of a submissve. Giving things up is an act of submission.

I don't have your experience, but don't agree with this point of view at all.

Some dominant partners are not looking for that level of control, and want to be with a more self-reliant submissive. In that instance, the submissive is being more submissive, by taking care of themselves on the level the dominant desires, and less submissive if they turn over a bunch of control that the dominant never wanted in the first place.

To me, submission isn't giving "more" or "less" ... it is giving over what the dominant desires, and what is appropriate for that relationship.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 26

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/3/2006 11:24:04 AM

Janon

Posts: 17
Joined: 9/1/2005
Status: offline

The more I lurk, the more I see a total lack of convention. Each Dom/me and sub defines things in their own unique way.

As for us, I do occasionally bottom for my pet who likes to top. I define that as separate from our 24/7 D/s roles. I may be tied up, but I am in charge. He and I both acknowledge that. I have never felt out of control, ever. Just our own thing. He likes to play big bad top now and then, but for us that is role play, not reality. Interesting thread, thanks for pulling me out of lurkdom.

Janon

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 27

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 8:46:22 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
It's too simplistic to say "if you give up more then you are more submissive."

My training as an engineer leads me to create simplified models of complex systems. The simpler the model, the easier it is to understand and predict, yet the less accurate that understanding and those predictions.

My model is not quite as simple as "the more you give up, the more you are submissive", it is "the more rights and choices you give up, the more submissive you are."

In looking as "submission" as a character quality, you must decide if it is a binary quality (either you are submissive or you are not (black and white, no shades of grey)) or if it is measured along a gradiant. My experience has led me to believe that submission is indeed stronger in some than in others. If it can indeed be measured that way, then there must be some way of ranking levels of submission.

In my view, those levels are defined by the rights and choices given up by the submissive. To give up all rights and all choices to another, would be to submit entirely. This does not mean that one gives up all decisions, just the right to make those decisions for one self. If one retains some rights and choices, one becomes less of a submissive. I agree that one cannot assign a score to any one right, such as choosing clothing or orgasm denial, as each right/choice has its own significance inside of the relationship. Yet, given a situation where all other things are equal, the submissive that maintains a right/choice is less submissive than one who gives that right/choice to their dominant.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 28

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 8:58:51 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Some dominant partners are not looking for that level of control, and want to be with a more self-reliant submissive. In that instance, the submissive is being more submissive, by taking care of themselves on the level the dominant desires, and less submissive if they turn over a bunch of control that the dominant never wanted in the first place.

Don't confuse submission and self-reliance. They have nothing to do with one another. Giving up control may (or may not) mean giving up autonomy. It really comes down to the willingness to give up control, rather then the actual act.

As I wrote above, submission isn't simply giving up things. Giving up things is sacrifice and we all make those, submissive and dominant alike. Submission is giving up choice. Some submissives give up more of those choices than others. Some might not be willing to give up their self-reliance, and this would make them less submissive than someone who was willing to give it up, but was not asked to. These two submissives could lead identical lives, yet one is more submissive (and more of a submissive), because they leave the choice of their self-reliance to someone else, rather then making that choice for themsleves.

quote:

To me, submission isn't giving "more" or "less" ... it is giving over what the dominant desires, and what is appropriate for that relationship.

Yet the "more" a submissive is willing to give over, the more submissive they are, no? How else can one define the gradiants of submission? Or do you see all submissives being equal?

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 29

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 9:04:55 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

If it can indeed be measured that way, then there must be some way of ranking levels of submission.

In my view, those levels are defined by the rights and choices given up by the submissive. To give up all rights and all choices to another, would be to submit entirely.

A very interesting point of view to be sure ... but what about dominants that don't want a submissive to give up that level of control, don't want the hassle of running someone else's life, etc ...?

Aren't you more submissive, if you give your dominant what he wants? That seems a more viable system than a ranking system that only takes into account one of the two parties in the relationship.

Good discussion though ... as always Taggard.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 30

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 9:11:17 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Yet the "more" a submissive is willing to give over, the more submissive they are, no?

Well, I would say no, and replace that statement with:

Yet the "more" a submissive is willing to give over THINGS THAT THE DOMINANT ACTUALLY WANTS, the more submissive they are.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 31

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 9:21:59 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Yet the "more" a submissive is willing to give over THINGS THAT THE DOMINANT ACTUALLY WANTS, the more submissive they are.

So that would mean that submission only exists within the context of a relationship with a dominant, and that one who is not in a relationship is not a submissive at all.

I do not see it working that way. I have dominant tendencies that are with me even when I am not in a relationship with a submissive. I desire to make choices for others...that is what makes me dominant. I desire the control. I imagine (and have been informed on more than one occasion) that submissives feel much the same way. The desire to submit stretches beyond the relationship and is part of their very nature.

Given your definition, a submissive who has some squick with feet, yet would give up every other right and choice is less submissive than a submissive who loves to play with feet, and will only play with feet, and refuses any other kind of request or demand, IF they both serve a dominant who's only desire is foot rubs?

That just doesn't make sense to me... Could you elaborate?

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 32

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 9:31:22 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

but what about dominants that don't want a submissive to give up that level of control, don't want the hassle of running someone else's life, etc ...?

Again, it does not matter what the dominant actually has the submissive do. It only matters that what is done is the dominant's choice, and not the submissives.

I am not a pain player. I don't enjoy inflicting much more than an ouchy kind of sensation play. Yet, I expect those who serve me to be willing to take pain if it is my pleasure to dole it out. The choice is mine, not theirs, and it is clearly worked out in our negotiations that I expect that level of control. If I choose to inflict pain, I will, though I never do, simply because I do not enjoy it.

Dominance is about the exchange of power, not the exercise of it.

quote:

Aren't you more submissive, if you give your dominant what he wants?

Not if you are doing what he wants because you want to. If someone wanted to give me a brand new car, would it be an act of submission for me to take it? It might be, but it would be a whole lot less submissive than if I took the spanking someone else wanted to give me.

Now, to give up the choice...to do what someone else wants regardless of my own desire to do that activity...that is submission.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 33

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 9:50:48 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
It might be, but it would be a whole lot less submissive than if I took the spanking someone else wanted to give me.

Now, to give up the choice...to do what someone else wants regardless of my own desire to do that activity...that is submission.

Taggard

I simply dislike equating submission to sacrifice- they aren't the same thing.

First off, we can't judge "how" submissive someone is except our own personal basis. This is why it's so ridiculous when a dork dom IMs with "How submissive are you?"

You can't answer that in any meaningful terms (my traditional answer is "7.6 on the Winston-Schaler scale" or "More submissive than a piece of toast"). The answer is simply that I am me, I can grow in MY submission, but that is unable to be compared to anyone else.

I agree to be a slave in a relationship because it ultimately fulfills ME. Has nothing to do with sacrifice or suffering or some endurance test.

For me at least it is about terms of access and authority. However, we each have different priorities of authority, different values associated to it. So we cannot look at any particular relationship from the outside and say "That submission is less than this submission because she has access over X and she doesn't"

X means completely different things to each submissive, so you can't use it as some equalizing factor.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 34

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 9:57:49 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

I simply dislike equating submission to sacrifice- they aren't the same thing.

I agree.
I guess one person's "sacrifice" is another person's "fulfillment"

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 35

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 10:26:31 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

>We read so much about topping from the bottom, submissives etc who "manipulate" to get what they want---directing, demanding, maneuvering--but we never hear about bottoming from the top--is there such a thing--is that what Dominance is defined as--is that where Dom/mes get to solve their fetish needs? Is it more prevalent in switches? Is is Doms who aren't Doms/mes?

Wasn't sure where to post this as it extends across everyone's interests--well inquiring minds want to know--<

This is a difficult question for me to comprehend because its so "twisty." I tend not to look at D/S literally, or as who is doing what to whom, or who is admistering pain or direction to whom. To me, those are just the outer manifestation of what exists underneath between two people.

So, what is "bottoming from the top." My first impulse here would be to say, bottoming from the top is when a DOM goes passive agressive.

Examples:

1. A DOM wants a sub to be more communicative, and the way the DOM facilitates this is to be less communicative. The DOM therebly creates a communication hole, which he then expects the sub to fill.

2. A Sub has needs and the DOM knows this. Rather than level with or deal with those needs, the DOM ignores them, forcing the SUB to bring them up and deal with them.

3. A DOM is jealous of a sub's attentions from the opposite sex. The DOM then solcits his own attentions to hurt the sub in a payback, rub it in, or revenge like way.

In each case above, the DOM is being underhanded --- instead of being direct, authoritative, confident, and well --- Domimant.

I suppose one could argue the passive agressive approach could be tactically and calculatively dominant, but it can also be just be pure run of the mill manipulation.

(in reply to MHOO314)

Post #: 36

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 10:48:34 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I simply dislike equating submission to sacrifice- they aren't the same thing.

Which is precisely why I wrote the following:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

As I wrote above, submission isn't simply giving up things. Giving up things is sacrifice and we all make those, submissive and dominant alike.

Giving up things is a sacrifice. Giving up choice (not a "thing") is submission. I give up things all the time...I do so because it is my choice. Therefore, it is sacrifice, and not submission.

quote:

First off, we can't judge "how" submissive someone is except our own personal basis. This is why it's so ridiculous when a dork dom IMs with "How submissive are you?"

You can't answer that in any meaningful terms (my traditional answer is "7.6 on the Winston-Schaler scale" or "More submissive than a piece of toast"). The answer is simply that I am me, I can grow in MY submission, but that is unable to be compared to anyone else.

I disagree. If I were to ask the questions, "how submissive are you?", I would couch it in terms of "what choices are you willing to give up?" Or, perhaps more importantly, "what choices are you not willing to give up?" Hard limits, to me, reflect one objective measurable quality of submission. The more hard limits, the less submissive. The more authority over your own life you retain, the less submissive I would judge you.

All of this said, I am not saying that being "more submissive" is a good thing. It is a not, for me, any kind of valuation. It is a model of behavior I have developed to help me understand the vast quantities of information that I need to process when dealing with people. It is helpful for me to boil people down into categories...including levels of "submissiveness'. That does not mean, however, that I place more value on people who are more submissive.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 37

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 11:10:53 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

Well Taggard, we can probably go on and on, or just agree to not agree.

Truth be told, I'm not even sure ranking submission is even worth the trouble, and I certainly don't think that topping from the bottom or bottoming from the top even exists.

Peace ... cc

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 38

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 1:44:06 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

But if they did exist, how would you describe them? (You don't have to do it, its just a rhetorical question.)

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 39

RE: Bottoming from the Top - 1/4/2006 1:59:43 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Well Taggard, we can probably go on and on, or just agree to not agree.

Truth be told, I'm not even sure ranking submission is even worth the trouble, and I certainly don't think that topping from the bottom or bottoming from the top even exists.

Peace ... cc

This isn't the first time I've had a look at your profile after reading one of your posts and the same question immediately hits me right on the chin.... You're ONLY 19???

You and Taggard both make valid points and since it is about personal perspective and opinion, it's right that there is no "winner" here - or loser!

Levels of submission (or dominance) is also about personal perspective and need, so I don't believe in a general scale or universal ranking system. And especially not if ranking is defined by having more or less hard limits to another sub.

My personal ranking system is different. The sub who better matches my needs and requirements is the one who ranks highest in desirability. In that context, it's reasonable to say she's the "most submissive" to *ME*! I have hard limits of my own; limits that other doms and subs might not think "normal" and thus not rank me as highly on a scale of dominance. Pfft, like I care or hafta share my life with them.

No-one's ever a perfect match, of course, so there's always room for some compromise and we've still gotta "connect" for any relationship to work.... And nor do I believe in "topping from the bottom", at least, not in a sense of it being such a bad thing. And it's her butt when she inevitably oversteps, not mine!

I love reading sub perspective and you're a very astute and insightful girl. Even from wayyyy over here, you're worth keeping an eye out for..... 19 ay?

Focus.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 40

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