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RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 12:11:01 PM   
MsLadySue


Posts: 2254
Joined: 12/18/2004
Status: offline 		Slavery is illegal. Period! A Master/slave or Mistress/slave relationship is just that, a relationship. Both people agree to be part of it as long as they are happy and fulfilled within that relationship. Either is free to walk at any time, whether it's Gorean or otherwise. 

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(in reply to AmbrosialWench)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 12:26:59 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline 		I was owned for a very long time, over a decade and a half. There was a point, I guess it was year 11 or 12, when I was very unhappy and wanted my freedom. He was not abusive. It was a difficult relationship in a different sense: he was handicapped and ill a lot of the time. There were so many things we could not do, very basic things that most people take for granted. At that time, I felt that I greatly missed a lot of those things and felt that I needed other experiences and the freedom to be with other people. (Did I really? I don't know anymore, in hindsight, my concerns at that time seem so trivial.) What I did was talk to him about it. I couldn't do anything more. And he thought about it a long time, maybe 6-9 months. And I waited and discussed it more with him, and presented my case for independence while he thought. He eventually decided it would be better for me to stay with him. I was very frustrated and ranted a lot. For months afterwards I was unhappy. I thought he'd made a horrible mistake. But I didn't leave on my own. I couldn't. Eventually my frustration over this died down, then left.

Let me repeat something: I experienced no abuse, ever, in that relationship. If anything, he was too kind, too gentle, too caring of the other person. I always wanted him to be stricter with me. He could have been. He'd been that way with others. But he had decided that wouldn't be right for me, and that was that. Just as he decided I should stay with him. And that was that. At that time, I felt no compelling moral obligation to stay. He was in good health at the time this happened. He had a charismatic, outgoing personality, socialized a lot. We knew half a dozen women who would have been willing, eager, overjoyed even, to take my place as his slave. Nor was I financially dependent on him or without job skills or fearful of being resourceless. And this occuring 11-12 years along rather that 1-2 years into the relationship suggests that what was keeping me there wasn't exactly an advanced case of perfect-slave-psychosis, a symptom which tends to leave the body at the same time as the the underlying ailment, deep insecurity, departs. ;)

I can be a pretty intense and pushy person at times when I want something. I'm not only willing to apply pressure, but I know how to. I also know how to weave a very compelling rational argument. Had my owner been a slightly more vanilla man, he probably would have buckled under this mult-faceted attack. As much as I disagree with the Goreans on virtually everything, this quote you presented, "The slave of a Gorean man is only able to walk away if she isn't being adequately mastered. If she is, then it doesn't matter so much whether he is a total ass or an utter saint, a paragon of virtue or a cad. She's owned, she's his, and truly isn't capable of mustering the power to walk" is absolutely true, in my non-Gorean slave experience. Yes, abuse could be one cause of this statement being true. But I sincerely doubt that's what the quote is referring to. If anything, severe, undeserved abuse will make a slave more capable of walking away, not less, because it gives one an excuse, an out, a thread to grasp and follow out of the labyrinth of more compelling forms of control.

MRadme hit on one of these many forms of invisible control. There are many others, of course. But let's talk about just this one for a moment. A dominant, if he knows what he's doing and is working with soemone who genuinely wants to be enslaved knows how to fan and to fulfill an intense need in her for ownership. When that need is being fulfilled, it is very, very hard to walk away from it. You're like an addict getting her fix. And the more experienced and aware you are of this, the more impossible it becomes to walk, because you understand how very hard it will be to find someone capable of actually administering this "fix." Despite superficial evidence to the contrary, such individuals are rather rare.

(in reply to AmbrosialWench)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 12:28:42 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

The slave of a Gorean man is only able to walk away if she isn't being adequately mastered.  If she is, then it doesn't matter so much whether he is a total ass or an utter saint, a paragon of virtue or a cad.  She's owned, she's his, and truly isn't capable of mustering the power to walk


Sounds like a typical case of an overblown ego to me. I'd say most people have the ability to "muster the power to walk". You've got to remember, this is an online community, and I'd say a good number of people have never had a slave in the first place. They just come here to bump chests with other manly men and celebrate their awesomeness.


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(in reply to MsLadySue)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 12:35:26 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		greetings,

I was a kajira and when i found my self no longer enslaved mentally, I walked and took much flak for it from the gorean community. i was told i was a runaway and shunned because i left him without his permission. you see some believe in self release and others don't.
if he can't hold me,my holding myself there is not slavery,it is me exerting my will. thats freedom in my opinion.ymmv.
the quote in particular has nothing to do with abuse.
be well
fyre


quote:

ORIGINAL: AmbrosialWench

This is for all slaves(Gorean or Non-Gorean). If you were unhappy for an extended amount of time, would you stop being a slave and leave your master? Many slaves state they are there to make their Master happy and others telling slaves to stop whining and be the slave they signed up for. One Master stated ". The slave of a Gorean man is only able to walk away if she isn't being adequately mastered.  If she is, then it doesn't matter so much whether he is a total ass or an utter saint, a paragon of virtue or a cad.  She's owned, she's his, and truly isn't capable of mustering the power to walk."  This sounded to me like a battered woman. Abused women cannot muster the power to walk and I would pressume the M/s and gorean community would not see the man as being a Master.
I would love to hear from slaves and Masters, where the slave is not being fulfilled/happy, that cannot leave because slaves do not have the authority to make that choice and there Master refuses to set them free. 




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"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to AmbrosialWench)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 1:14:16 PM   
MRandme


Posts: 661
Joined: 9/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

A dominant, if he knows what he's doing and is working with soemone who genuinely wants to be enslaved knows how to fan and to fulfill an intense need in her for ownership. When that need is being fulfilled, it is very, very hard to walk away from it. You're like an addict getting her fix. And the more experienced and aware you are of this, the more impossible it becomes to walk, because you understand how very hard it will be to find someone capable of actually administering this "fix." Despite superficial evidence to the contrary, such individuals are rather rare



This i very much agree with. i find myself very much Mastered in this way. i cannot contemplate any place other than at His feet. During the soul-searching He is requiring of me at this point (prior to a Collaring) i was struck by fear and the thought of calling it quits crossed my mind. And i found that thought more terrifying. (the fear was not of Him but of the commitment the Collar represents.) i am staying with Him because i cannot fathom life without Him as my Master, cannot see myself serving anyone else the way i do Him. To another Man, i probably would be more of a sub, or even a bottom but He has the ability to nurture that urge to serve... and i cannot leave.

This Mastery has nothing to do with abuse, which i can say thanks to past experience. It is the total opposite, taking away the bad and the negative and replacing it with good and positive. It is uplifting and fulfilling rather than degrading and parasitic.

and please, call me g. *grin*



_____________________________

And thus i conclude with a wish you go well,
Sweet be your dreams, may your happiness swell,
I'll leave you here, for my journey begins
i've gone to be with Him again...

(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 1:38:35 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		If the slave in question lives in a country where slavery is illegal, and that law is enforced, then the idea that the slave cannot leave is laughable.

If you are unhappy, you have the ability to leave - but you must choose to use that power.


_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 2:30:36 PM   
GoddessTeaze


Posts: 1125
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AmbrosialWench
The slave of a Gorean man is only able to walk away if she isn't being adequately mastered.  If she is, then it doesn't matter so much whether he is a total ass or an utter saint, a paragon of virtue or a cad.  She's owned, she's his, and truly isn't capable of mustering the power to walk." 

That John Norman must have had a very big thumb,
amazing that so many people stop thinking when they read that book.

I prefer a sub who has a brain,
and don't tollerate any abuse.

B safe out there.

GoddezzT`




_____________________________

~* The only disability in life is a bad attitude. ~Scott Hamilton*~

~*Beauty is not in the face; beauty is a light in the heart. ~Kahlil Gibran*~

(in reply to AmbrosialWench)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 2:58:38 PM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmbrosialWench

". The slave of a Gorean man is only able to walk away if she isn't being adequately mastered.  If she is, then it doesn't matter so much whether he is a total ass or an utter saint, a paragon of virtue or a cad.  She's owned, she's his, and truly isn't capable of mustering the power to walk." 



i find this laughable.
I gave my consent to be where i am, and i can withdrawl it. He can do the same.



If you remove the word Gorean...and say it this way,

". The slave... is only able to walk away if they aren't being adequately mastered.  If the slave is mastered, then it doesn't matter so much whether the Master is a total ass or an utter saint, a paragon of virtue or a cad.  The slave is owned, he/she belongs to the one who has mastered him/her, and truly isn't capable of mustering the DESIRE to walk." 

That is how I read the phrase, and the perspective by which I approach the philosphy. 

My apologies to AmbrosiaWench for rewording her OP, I am not attempting to speak for her, merely offering how I view the concept that I see as integral to the phrase.



i would still feel the same. If he cannot "Master" himself (ie stop being a total ass, abusive, or whatever the reason to cause my unhappiness) he has lost my respect. Again...i gave my consent to be where i am, and i have not, and never will, lose my ability to withdrawl it.


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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 3:04:25 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not disagreeing with you Holly.  I just think it all lies in how you construct/descontruct the rational.  I sort of see it is a basic if/then equation.  If mastered equals content slave, then mastered equals no reason to leave.  In other words, one is fulfilling an argument within workable parameters.  That's all I see within the construct of that phrase.  It could just be the nyquil and fever talkng though.  Others deconstruct the statement in a different manner, and I can see how it can be interpreted either way.

WinD

Edited to add:  And this would be why I quit programming....my logic is sometimes wonky. 

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 12/28/2008 3:06:57 PM >

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 3:14:56 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

The quote has nothing to do with being Gorean really. It could have been simplified to say "A slave that is not adequately mastered will become unhappy and leave."

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 3:35:35 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

The quote has nothing to do with being Gorean really. It could have been simplified to say "A slave that is not adequately mastered will become unhappy and leave."


This I agree with.

I'd feel safe saying that most of us, Gorean or not, enter into our relationships because it makes us happy to be in them. When they make us unhappy (I'm not talking about a night or a few weeks or a rough patch that can be worked out), we can leave.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 3:39:39 PM   
E2Sweet


Posts: 649
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: TopLeftCornerOf, OH, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AmbrosialWench

... The slave of a Gorean man is only able to walk away if she isn't being adequately mastered.  If she is, then it doesn't matter so much whether he is a total ass or an utter saint, a paragon of virtue or a cad.  She's owned, she's his, and truly isn't capable of mustering the power to walk." ...


I mean no disrespect to the Gorean folks here (I've personally found a number of them to be highly intelligent and wise beyond their years), but I'd have to say the quote simply blurs the line between fantasy and reality. I think the quote is innaccurate with regard to what can be achieved and maintained in a modern, civilized society. I also believe the arrangement as stated has zero chance to be enforced, and remain a solid, functional, and healthy for the long term.

The bottom line I think is that a dominant/master requires at least one or more willing subjects on the opposite side of the kneel to be executing his role in a M/s/D/s relationship correctly.


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E2Sweet™
"If it doesn't make you smile then chances are you're not doing it right."

(in reply to AmbrosialWench)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 4:09:55 PM   
kdmfl


Posts: 118
Joined: 12/3/2008
Status: offline 		I feel submission is a gift with a lot of trust included.  A dom/domme should respect the withdrawal of someones submission

(in reply to E2Sweet)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 5:00:41 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		TO me, it doesnt matter if the dom respects the choice or not.  The sub has left. End of story.

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polysnortatious
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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 5:49:18 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

The quote has nothing to do with being Gorean really. It could have been simplified to say "A slave that is not adequately mastered will become unhappy and leave."


That's a good point. 

My error over the years, both in my former marriage and in my slavery to my former owner, was that I held so strongly to the commitment I made, and to the idea of what I should be, that in both situations I allowed myself to become unhappy - even depressed - and did not leave (well, with the marriage I left but far later than I should have, and had a lot of damages to repair as a result). 

My thought was, a good slave should stick through whatever she must with her master, doing what he wants of her no matter how trying, and do her best to be grateful and pleasing despite any circumstance.  That looks good on paper but the reality of it can be a completely different story.  In my case, despite all my efforts I could not meet the new expectations he laid out for me due to some changed circumstances.  But still I would not leave, and continued to keep trying.  He chose to let me go, knowing I would have kept hanging in there otherwise, and that the situation was detrimental to me.

I learned from that.  Now, months later with none of those pressures on me, I am peaceful, no longer depressed & exhausted, and I realize that life is too short to give over to a text book (matter of speech, not gor related) version of what I believe a _____ (wife, sub, slave, person, etc.) should be.  I resolve to be happy.  If I am in a situation which is bringing me unhappiness (and which can not seem to be resolved), I will not stay.  As a friend said - starve a pet and it will die.  I'm no longer willing to die while waiting for scraps.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 6:23:06 PM   
AmbrosialWench


Posts: 50
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline 		Caringandreal, I appreciate you writing your experience. I am very interested in understanding your situation at the time. Would you say the mental control he had over you was due mostly to your love you had for your Master? I would imagine that many in vanilla relationships are not happy but stay because of the love they have for their partner.

fyreredsub, thank you also for your story also. I do not know if you loved your Master but where not satisfied with the lack of mental slavery. Do you think that love is the outweighing factor which would keep a slave from leaving their Master?

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 6:27:10 PM   
AmbrosialWench


Posts: 50
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline 		Nueva, do you believe you would leave if a new relationship M/s was going bad?

(in reply to AmbrosialWench)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 6:29:51 PM   
BondageBarbieX


Posts: 495
Joined: 4/1/2008
Status: offline 		Ok, Gor is based on a work of fiction and should not be taken seriously as a D's code of  living or ethics.I have no use for Gor Masters and find it utterly ridiculous as a concept.
You can leave whenever you want if you have a crappy Dominant.

< Message edited by BondageBarbieX -- 12/28/2008 6:30:14 PM >

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 6:36:42 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AmbrosialWench

". The slave of a Gorean man is only able to walk away if she isn't being adequately mastered.  If she is, then it doesn't matter so much whether he is a total ass or an utter saint, a paragon of virtue or a cad.  She's owned, she's his, and truly isn't capable of mustering the power to walk."



Well, yes, actually.

To be frank, it doesn't matter one iota how much of an ass, or a dolt MY master is, if he's doing a good job of mastering ME.

All the time he's mastering me in a way that is working, then nope; if he's been able to supply to ME with the feelings of being owned and HIS........ then, I am likely not to be up to mustering the *walking away* thing. Why would I? I'm happy, I'm getting what I want.

Do you mean that they don't have the *permission* to leave despite having decided that they don't want to be in the relationship? No-one HAS to stay .....'though SOME people feel they can't leave. That happens in all sorts of relationships. I've never had *permission* to leave any of those that I left. Well, apart from permission from myself, that is.

Even my dear current owner will only get the statutary 7 days notice, no matter how warm he makes me feel and no matter how long we've been together.

I can recognise that having been adequately *mastered* for more than a few years, that it's not something you wander off from on a whim..

agirl

(in reply to AmbrosialWench)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: slaves ability to leave - 12/28/2008 6:48:37 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AmbrosialWench

Nueva, do you believe you would leave if a new relationship M/s was going bad?



Absolutely.  I am seeing someone now.  We're not in an M/s dynamic as of yet, but there is definitely a D/s aspect to the relationship.  It is no secret to either of us that I do not believe in "forever" commitments...that I commit to a relationship as long as it is healthy and good for both of us.  Whether or not I become enslaved to someone again remains to be seen.  I am still working through things on that regard.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to AmbrosialWench)
Profile   Post #: 40
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