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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 11:55:56 AM   
OmegaG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyTeazer

This might be slightly off topic, but from the other side of the coin......    In a way, I can understand that opinion in a male Dom.   As a female Domme, I admit that at times I have a rather unflattering opinion of female subs.   Examples:  a Dom and female sub are sitting on the couch, watching TV.  He says "Go get me a beer/a glass of iced tea/a sandwich", or whatever.  And even before he has finished speaking, she jumps up and races off to the kitchen.  Or, he says "My shirts are not folded correctly" after she has spent hours doing the laundry, and she, in tears, apologizes profusely, and immediately re-folds them.   My gut reaction to a scenario like that is  "You dumb bunny.  You're not a stupid doormat.  Grow a backbone and act like you have a brain in your head."    I do not mean to offend the female subs out there.  This is just my opinion.  I know that you choose to be a sub, because that is what you enjoy.   But in certain circumstances, seeing a female behave like that (whether she is into BDSM, or is just very vanilla) really ruffles my feathers,  as I feel that all the advances women have made have just been wiped out, and we're back in 1809 instead of 2009. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roguescharm

Sorry if I'm hijacking I just had to get this out. The above is almost exactly how I feel, and I feel all the worse for reacting this way because I identify as a sub. It's maddening. It doesn't matter how much I tell myself that it's their/our/my choice; I still feel like I'm somehow letting the side down. It sucks.

Sorry for the interjection, it just sort of struck me like lightning.

These sorts of mentalities befuddle the crap out of me.

Is it really that difficult to understand that the advances in a greater degree in civil liberties for women mean specifically that they can be free to discover whatever role makes them happy and pursue it without derision from onlookers?

But some would continue to place a level of oppression on women who happen to be happy in submission because they think what gender equality somehow really "means" is that all women have to force some empty bravado of self-assertion to make up for the lives of generations of dead women they don't know?

If the nucleus of gender 'equality' is that women get to be as macho as men have traditionally been seen as being, I find it a desecration of the entire point of the civil movement in the first place.



That was beautifully said.  I think that it's a wonderful thing that a woman can get an education, become successful at any career she chooses, be a mother, a submissive to her partner-- that she can be all of the above or some of the above (or none, I guess) means true equality to me.  Someone, be it male or female tells me that I am wrong for fulfuilling any of my desires is stifling my equality.

The teen chaperone that I have once asked me why I served M'Lord.  I pointed out that I do no more for M'Lord at meal time then I do for Mr Teen Angst.  He thought about it for a minute and aquiesce though he added that I should serve him because he's baby (my youngest) and I should not serve anyone else as that would make it less special.

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Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 1:43:49 PM   
Amaros


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Status: offline 		Whatever spins your propeller- I mean on one level, there's all this political bullshit, and on another, you just wanna get your freak on, right?

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 1:50:04 PM   
OmegaG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Whatever spins your propeller- I mean on one level, there's all this political bullshit, and on another, you just wanna get your freak on, right?



I used to have a key chain that said  "I used to think I was a slut but then I relized that I fucked like a man".  Strikes me as sort of ironic that my submissive persuasion is being accused of setting women back when I'm definatly more sexually liberal then many.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 2:11:39 PM   
Amaros


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Status: offline 		Ah, the politics of procreation - it only technically matters what women do when paternity is an issue - unfortunately, that includes most of human history and probably a lot of protohuman prehistory: reliable birth control has only been around for a couple of generations, there's a lot of baggage.

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 3:01:07 PM   
CatdeMedici


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Status: offline 		 uh so what does female procreation have to do with "Male perceptions of males"?
 
not to be a brat here but...

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 3:07:31 PM   
happypervert


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Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		~fr

I've got friends who are dominated by their wives; they may not identify as kinksters, but that doesn't affect the power dynamic. This isn't uncommon, so I think the premise in the OP is far fetched.

I have no interest in dominating a male submissive, but that is an entirely different issue.


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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 3:43:46 PM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

 uh so what does female procreation have to do with "Male perceptions of males"?
 
not to be a brat here but...
Everything and nothing. It has to do with "what women want", i.e., strong male provider, hunter, etc., someone who can protect and help her obtain resources when she is burdened with child.

Surely you are aware that there is a widespread masculine tendency to disparage anything feminine, a tendency that often crosses over into violence when a male displays traits considered feminine - presumably,  this would be seen to possibly undermine the entire notion of masculine prerogative, though it's probably more likely that it represents the projection of cognitive dissonance of sympathetic homoerotic sensations on the part of those who have invested a great deal of psychic energy into suppressing the same, consciously or subconsciously - no big deal really, homoerotic urges don't really make you homosexual, and damn near all mammals exhibit bisexual behaviors from time to time.

That then there's the whole religious right thing, the Augustinian concept of passionless sex for procreative purposes only, which has somehow managed to attract adherents - there is a certain strain of fear of feminine sexuality, i.e., that women are sexually insatiable, so you don't dare "get them started", and feminized men may be threatening on a subconscious level, a "bad example", so to speak.

There is a general tendency here to disparage any sort of sexual activity that is deemed "frivolous", as well as the usual threat to male status - i.e., the whole notion of male supremacy is based politically on the notion that it's "natural", i.e., biological, and inescapable, and feminized men are a walking reproof to that notion, and that in turn would seem to raise questions about male status in general, and status is useful in obtaining those resources one requires to obtain and retain a mate, and raise your mutual progeny. This all reflects agrarian economic values, where divisions of labor are fairly clear cut and established, these divisions, expressed as roles, get a little more nebulous in an urban/industrial information economy.

Supressing a neurosis tends to heighten it however, and all that orgasm denial makes them a little crazy, IMO - people tend to resent those who indulge in what they deny themselves, and what you end up with is a bunch of very cranky aesetics.

In truth, males are generally statistically a little more motivated to have things their way, largely a function of testosterone, but it a generalization that breaks down on the individual level: it's the pattern of life that it tends to diversify if given half a chance, and my feeling is that politics essentially exaggerates what some relatively mild tendencies into some sort of neo-Darwinian life and death struggle where it's all got to be one way or the other - Manichean sexual dualism.



< Message edited by Amaros -- 1/5/2009 3:46:23 PM >

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 4:23:42 PM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline 		Then there is the whole issue of penetration: biologically, males penetrate, females are penetrated, it seem almost mindlessly simplistic, but to be penetrated is synonymous with notions of feminine weakness: whether it be a penis, a spear or a sword, a bullet or an ICBM - males have an inherent fear of being penetrated that probably never even occurs to women, i.e., winners penetrate, the loser get's penetrated, and although in many ways, it has nothing to do with gender or sexuality, we do tend to dissociate on certain levels from anyone that actually enjoys being penetrated because of the association between penetration and death - it's like being eaten by Sabertooth cat, we just don't want to go there on the subconscious level - and, of course, the flip side of being penetrated is being eaten, thus fear of feminine insatiability, Vagina dentata, etc. among the more neurotic.

As the anus is symbolic of death and corruption, homosexuality is kind of a symbolic double negative, we often react to the abstract symbolic value of things alone on one level.

Given that a leading cause of death throughout most of history and prehistory is opportunistic infection - out in the bush, a scratch can kill you - certain fluid superstitions make sense, again, there is a huge amount of baggage leftover from pre-scientific culture, so to answer your question, everything has to do with procreation, even suvival, so take your pick.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 1/5/2009 4:31:59 PM >

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 5:41:06 PM   
bluepanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyTeazer

I have heard the same thing -- that male Dom's look with disdain, or even disgust upon male submissives.  I've wondered why that is the case. 


They're just jealous of us sub guys because we wind up with the best women!


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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 5:52:01 PM   
bluepanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

At the risk of firing things up a bit here (*gasp*), I'm not even sure how I could have ended up with a "best friend" who was submissive all along  - but such is the limitations of hypotheticals, I s'pose....
 
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down male subs here (really, I'm NOT), rather I'm more an advocate of "birds of a feather flock together" and "water always finds its own true level" etc and there's no way my "best friend" could be submissive without me picking up on signs.  And since my dominant self doesn't relate to male subs anymore than my hetero self relates to gays, this fella would not have been my "best friend" to begin with.  But yeah, he could still be A friend or acquaintance and his "coming out" would likely be greeted with, "Yep, I thought so...." - and then I'd have him find me girls of the same persuasion....  *wink*
 
Just to add to my confusion, how does "life long college roommate" work - that we're just not cutting it academically, either?  lol

Focus.


Foucs, mark me down as one male sub who gets what you're saying and is not the least bit put off by it. I hear you. Yeah, if you and I hung out at a hockey game (oh, wait, you're in Australia)... OK, if we went to a rugby game and then had a few beers afterwards, it's highly unlikely you'd sniff me out. But then, that's not what you're saying - you're saying that if you and I had been best buds for a couple of decades, and you'd observed the patterns of my relationship dynamics and the way I interacted witn my partners, your familiarity with the intricacies of the lifestyle would make it pretty easy for you to spot me.

I get it. And I agree. If you knew me that well and spent the kind of time with me that best friends spend, it wouldn't be hard to see. I know you're taking a lot of heat in this thread, but I get  ya, and I'm not offended that you wouldn't want to be best friends with me either. Not everybody can be best friends. It's no big deal.

As an aside... I wonder if any of the fetish-oriented retailers will ever start selling "My Sub Can Beat Up Your Dom" bumper stickers? Might be a small niche market for it...shit, I've got to stop with this always looking for new business ideas thing....


< Message edited by bluepanda -- 1/5/2009 5:53:43 PM >

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Panda, Panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 7:29:54 PM   
CatdeMedici


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quote:

As an aside... I wonder if any of the fetish-oriented retailers will ever start selling "My Sub Can Beat Up Your Dom" bumper stickers? Might be a small niche market for it...shit, I've got to stop with this always looking for new business ideas thing....


<getting out Her Visa>

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I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/5/2009 9:13:10 PM   
NecesitesMe


Posts: 38
Joined: 12/15/2008
Status: offline 		I have plenty of male friends who I would never consider submissive.... until I see them with their wives. 

Some I have even counseled on what they need to do to get their balls back... yet they refuse.  Alas, I just pour another scotch and justify their situation by saying "That must be some good stuff." 

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/6/2009 2:39:48 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NecesitesMe
Some I have even counseled on what they need to do to get their balls back... yet they refuse.  Alas, I just pour another scotch and justify their situation by saying "That must be some good stuff." 
Fortunately enough, they're smart enough to know they won't get what they need from you and your counseling, and appropriately ignore the advice. M

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/6/2009 6:08:35 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		There are a couple of TV programs from the US in which the character of the wife is both domineering and rude to the character of the husband. To this I add a series of TV commercials for RAC Insurance in which the wife either talks down the husband or openly mocks him. Now admittedly, this is typically Australian for sections of our community but it irks me because of the crass rudeness and forces me to ask: “What message is this giving to the youngsters when and if they mimic this type of behavior later in life?"

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/6/2009 7:10:06 AM   
CatdeMedici


Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline 		ok off topic, IB that new pic is stunning!

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I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/7/2009 2:47:36 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

At the risk of firing things up a bit here (*gasp*), I'm not even sure how I could have ended up with a "best friend" who was submissive all along  - but such is the limitations of hypotheticals, I s'pose....
 
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down male subs here (really, I'm NOT), rather I'm more an advocate of "birds of a feather flock together" and "water always finds its own true level" etc and there's no way my "best friend" could be submissive without me picking up on signs.  And since my dominant self doesn't relate to male subs anymore than my hetero self relates to gays, this fella would not have been my "best friend" to begin with.  But yeah, he could still be A friend or acquaintance and his "coming out" would likely be greeted with, "Yep, I thought so...." - and then I'd have him find me girls of the same persuasion....  *wink*
 
Just to add to my confusion, how does "life long college roommate" work - that we're just not cutting it academically, either?  lol

Focus.


Foucs, mark me down as one male sub who gets what you're saying and is not the least bit put off by it. I hear you. Yeah, if you and I hung out at a hockey game (oh, wait, you're in Australia)... OK, if we went to a rugby game and then had a few beers afterwards, it's highly unlikely you'd sniff me out. But then, that's not what you're saying - you're saying that if you and I had been best buds for a couple of decades, and you'd observed the patterns of my relationship dynamics and the way I interacted witn my partners, your familiarity with the intricacies of the lifestyle would make it pretty easy for you to spot me.

I get it. And I agree. If you knew me that well and spent the kind of time with me that best friends spend, it wouldn't be hard to see. I know you're taking a lot of heat in this thread, but I get  ya, and I'm not offended that you wouldn't want to be best friends with me either. Not everybody can be best friends. It's no big deal.

Well this is a refreshing change from those who just wanna switch their brain off and jump on the "I'm offended" bandwagon....  lol  And yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying.  Not sure if I was having a semi cultural clash with some of the other posters but in Oz, we tend to have only one BEST friend; like there's only one best man at a wedding.

I don't mind "taking heat"; it happens regularly around here - water off a duck's back, as we say.... lol 
 
It's not a case that I wouldn't wanna be friends with you (or any male sub) so much as it's never come close to happening.  I've yet to meet a male sub (and I've met quite a few at munches) that I have anything in common with beyond gender and lifestyle....  Maybe there's just too great a personality difference, esp once Dom and sub are identified.  
 
Just as I don't go round dominating any and all who identify as sub, I also get a little creeped out or annoyed by those subs who think a Dom/me should....

Focus.

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/7/2009 5:22:44 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I just wonder at the male doms, is it they don't want a male sub because even if they did not feel it themselves, they think others would start drawing conclusions about their sexuality ?

In the past men had valets, which were personal male servants, what is wrong with this present age ?

Or is it about sex ?


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/7/2009 6:57:57 AM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I just wonder at the male doms, is it they don't want a male sub because even if they did not feel it themselves, they think others would start drawing conclusions about their sexuality ?

In the past men had valets, which were personal male servants, what is wrong with this present age ?

Or is it about sex ?


It is about sex.  I appreciate service as much as the next Dom, though I do not seek it.  I would not have any trouble dominating a male sub if I did not believe that the sub would want something beyond my simply dominating his life and making his decisions for him.  They may be subs, but they are still men.  Men like sex. In my opinion, were I a sub I would want sex and as I am straight, I would seek a domina accordingly or go without entirely.  I know it is not always about sex, but it is about sex often enough to warrant choosing a partner one could potentially be sexually attracted to.


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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/7/2009 7:09:45 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		I've never thought dominance=rude/crass, and I generally don't let my uhm watch tv other than disney channel. There are way too many tv shows in my opinion demonstrating the power struggles "normal" couples go through, which are in the end, fairly destructive and the probable reason for the high divorce rate.

I don't believe the shows are unrealistic in todays world, where there are no rules for anyone to adhere to in courtship or relationships. We may in the end, have to go back to basics, lose the ego factor, and let the best partner lead the relationship, without all the hostilities and power struggles. M

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The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

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RE: Male Perceptions of males - 1/7/2009 8:42:46 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I know I am a little off topic but I think it needs to be asked.

I wonder if male subs really give a damn what male doms think of them? I know I sure don't. Doms male and female are for my use ...they are there to serve my needs. I will hold up my side of the bargain and provide for their needs as well but it is a partnership not a dictatorship. If they don't perform they are gone...just as it is with me.

It is foolish to look down on anyone, they may fool you and kick your ass one way or another.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/7/2009 9:17:17 AM >

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