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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 11:50:25 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:


I believe, here in lies the problem.

Your belief is in error, then. You will only make society a "team" through oppression and coercion--after eliminating the die-hard individualists who are the only productive members of any society.

Forging society into a team only produces a team of incompetents. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Ceaucescu, Mao, Pol Pot, et al learned that lesson the hard way--paying for their idiocy with untold millions of human lives. Why would you wish to repeat such a bloody and foolish error?

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:15:15 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Your belief is in error, then. You will only make society a "team" through oppression and coercion--after eliminating the die-hard individualists who are the only productive members of any society.


It seems to me, the idea that an individual can make a society, is faulty. It is possible for an individual to inspire the start of a society, but after that, the individuals of the society, make the society A society that recognizes all of its members as its main asset, and strives to utilize its assets to their fullest capacity, is one that should thrive well.

quote:

Why would you wish to repeat such a bloody and foolish error?


I wouldn’t. I just don’t find the current situation of manipulation to be any more acceptable.
 
Kim

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:33:22 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

A society that recognizes all of its members as its main asset, and strives to utilize its assets to their fullest capacity, is one that should thrive well.

"Society" does not recognize anything. "Society" is incapable of cognition or intellection. "Society" has no assets to utilize or despoil.

All the attributes you assign to "society" are in fact characteristics that are the sole province of the individual.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:42:43 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		You sound just like Margaret Thatcher, of "There is no such thing as society" fame.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:48:55 PM   
celticlord2112


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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You sound just like Margaret Thatcher, of "There is no such thing as society" fame.

"Society" is a reality only in the minds of the deluded; it is a convenient label and handy fiction otherwise. Thatcher was correct.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:50:40 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

a people should ALWAYS question authority. 



Couldn't agree more, but your sentiment doesn't equate to disorder.

I mean, the rule of law and government are highly ordered by nature, but everyone is entitled to an appeal.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:50:51 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

A society that recognizes all of its members as its main asset, and strives to utilize its assets to their fullest capacity, is one that should thrive well.

"Society" does not recognize anything. "Society" is incapable of cognition or intellection. "Society" has no assets to utilize or despoil.



A society is made up of a group of people, who are capable of cognition and intellection; without its members, no society.

Kim

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:52:18 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Can order and liberty not be combined  and not be chaos ?



In practice, there is a balance between order and liberty - I suppose the question is one of which of the two takes precedence?

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:56:14 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You sound just like Margaret Thatcher, of "There is no such thing as society" fame.

"Society" is a reality only in the minds of the deluded; it is a convenient label and handy fiction otherwise. Thatcher was correct.


No, Thatcher was a liar, who set about to destroy the very society she claimed did not exist, under spurious claims of 'freedom' and 'personal responsibility'.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 12:56:25 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

North, did you find yourself talking to policemen about how many pints you'd had?



I have no problem with regulating my alcohol intake, so the potential for attracting the attention of the law is remote.

I think you hit on a fair point though - the evidence suggests that many of us are incapable of self-regulation and thus need order imposed upon us.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 1:06:23 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Don't forget where we are, Northy: this is Beedeyessemland. Some of us beg for order to be imposed upon them - and some of us crave to impose their will upon others.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 1:07:34 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

"Orderly" societies have rarely been able to peacefully coexist with anybody.



Perhaps now's the time to look at the evidence and test the theory.

As a species, we gravitate toward organisational structures - family, government, religion, work etc - these are pretty much constants in human behaviour, all of which are hierarchical and not necessarily driven by self-regulation.

People may yearn for 'freedom' in revolutionary times; they soon find themselves replacing the old oppression with the new order (by means of coercion), however.

Even in what appear to be the most innocuous of social gatherings and situations, human behaviour is highly ordered (perhaps an anthropologist can help out here). Take ordering a pint at the bar: it may seem that punters gather haphazardly along the bar, but in fact there is an invisible queue and the bar staff and customers are aware of each person's place in the queue, any attempt to get services out of turn will be ignored by bar staff and frowned upon by other customers. Take round buying:  it serves the purpose of maintaining order - people can argue til they're blue in the face but while they're buying drinks for one another there will be no fighting.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 1:13:31 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:


No, Thatcher was a liar, who set about to destroy the very society she claimed did not exist, under spurious claims of 'freedom' and 'personal responsibility'.

Of course....can't have people being responsible for themselves, now can we?

"Society" remains the biggest lie ever told....sadly it seems to have been the most believable as well.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 1:18:13 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

"Society" remains the biggest lie ever told....sadly it seems to have been the most believable as well.


If societies do not exist, then I am not understanding the point of sharing ideas and coming together to solve common problems.
 
Kim

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 1:19:05 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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Status: offline 		I can't remember the name of the study.  But it was a test to see if people would adminster painful, electric shocks to someone just because they were told to do it.  Everyone that took the test readily pushed the button when told to.  People as a whole obey authority whether we believe it or not.  We also follow unwritten rules while interacting with one another.  For example, get on an elevator with people than turn around and face everyone.  If you've ever done that, you'll notice it makes people uneasy.  Not only is order necessary for freedom, it's natural for us to set it up when it's absent.  You could never have a true anarchy for that reason.  We seek out authority and order when we don't have it. 

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/5/2009 2:15:40 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		I think that precedence depends on several factors, one being population density or as hunkboy states a rural or urban environment.  Another is the relative stability and health of a society. 
 
So what affects the health and stability of a society?  Access to resources, a sense of community, justice, opportunities for those who want them, security for those who are timid, protection of the weak, infirm, elderly and unmentionables.  In times of drought, famine, agression from outside the society and other periods of instability maintaining order alleviates some of the terror but can well lead to totalitarian rule.  And complete liberty during a time of instability can lead to chaos and anarchy.  The psychological/social needs for security and safety will frequently weigh the scale on the side of law and order.



quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Can order and liberty not be combined  and not be chaos ?



In practice, there is a balance between order and liberty - I suppose the question is one of which of the two takes precedence?


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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/6/2009 4:27:22 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Any thoughts?

Prompts for those in need:

1) Which of the two is most important in order to maximise a peaceful co-existence?

2) What is the best means of order/organisation to maximise liberty?


I think the Ameican experiment is probably as good a model as any...you need order and liberty.  Order
from a firm implementation of the rule of law, and freedom to be whatever you want to be.

This formula has brought together peoples from every part of the world and most of us consider ourselves
to be "Americans", notwithstanding the politicans continued focus on an italic-american to divide and conquer
for votes. 
We tend to come together during periods of adversity, we are mostly tolerant of others, and sure we carry some nasty baggage and  have some warts, who doesen't, but from the standpoint of the human experience, when historians look back at this age in a thousand years (assuming the planet has not been blown apart), I really believe the age of America will be looked at with great admiration. 

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/6/2009 4:29:56 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Natural order is the balance that comes about when people are placed in positions they are best suited for, in light of their abilities, according to a goal.

There is nothing "natural" about such an order. It is oppression, pure and simple.


It's also quite Gorean. 

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/6/2009 5:49:11 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

If societies do not exist, then I am not understanding the point of sharing ideas and coming together to solve common problems.

It's called enlightened self interest.  Helping you solve your problem helps me solve mine.


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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/6/2009 6:22:03 AM   
Crush


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Status: offline 		Order vs liberty.   Order and liberty.

If we look to the animal kingdom, they have no set of written rules.  Some animals are loners except at breeding time.  Others have moved to a group (herd, pod, flock, etc.) for a common defense against predators.

Humans did the same.  One big difference is that we keep our weak alive, finding some "value" in keeping them with us.  Usually emotional, rather than practical.  

And, as a side note, we were able to become specialized in our survival, since we didn't have to do it all anymore.  Trade, etc., as a result of being able to be "just" a baker and someone else could "just" be a blacksmith, etc.

But group politics means that there will be a leader and followers.  The leader needs Order.  And the group gives up some Liberties in exchange for the safety the group provides.

It isn't order vs liberty.  It is a selection on a continuum, with order on one side, liberty on the other.

You can have "complete" liberty as a loner in the woods.  No one to tell you when to sleep, what to eat, what you can and can't hunt, etc.   You can have "complete" order, but your life becomes extremely regulated. 

Since we each desire different  levels of both order and liberty, we have conflict.  Myself, I am more on the liberty side and I'm willing to have things left to me to accomplish.  Others are more on the order side, wanting an "ordered" life.

So, the illusions we choose between a choice range between "free range" or "barn kept."


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