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Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 12:42:10 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		i have a question perhaps someone out there can give me some advice on.  my dad died about 2 months ago.  A few years back he asked me if he could have this chinese ming dynasty bowl, that was one of my mothers treasured antiques, to display in his home until his death, whereupon it would be returned to me.  i explained to him that my mother had given me this bowl and how much it meant to me to have it. He promised me i would get it back when he died. His current wife i know knew of this as it was spoken of in front of her. Fast forward about 5  years later. He is very sick and his wife is distraught over his impending death. She mentions how my father requested to be buried in this bowl. Mind you this is a huge bowl. It is the kind of bowl that would be a table centerpiece.  It has no lid of any sort - and the funeral director already told her ashes must be contained.  i waited a couple of months before menting getting this bowl back and she went ballistic on me.  Started brining up all kinds of crap about the past and attempting to draw me into conversations of who did what, with whom, to whom kind of bullshit. i don't bite at that shit anymore and attempted to refocus on my original intention - getting my bowl back.  It's obvious to me that shes not going to hand it over to me.  My questions is - can i take her to court over this?  i vaguely remember years ago i took my brother to court to sue him for the money i had invested in merchandise i purchased that he was going to refurbish and make a substantial profit we would share.  The judge said, when i asked him if i could than just have my merchandize  back that you cannot sue for objects, only money. This was a long time ago (80)'s - perhaps i misinterpreted him or he was right i don't really know.  i don't want to waste my time and energy on something that will be fruitless and just bring me heartache in the end, i am dealing with enough right now in my life.  Getting this bowl back means a lot to me for many reasons.  i know my mother would be turning in her grave if she thought this woman, who when my mom was alive caused our family such grief and heartache, had posession of this bowl. 

If worse comes to worse there's always my hammer.




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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 1:38:18 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Is there any documentation that says the bowl is yours? Because that would help. Otherwise it's going to be hard to prove ownership.

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 1:38:27 PM   
SummerWind


Posts: 314
Joined: 7/4/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not a lawyer.  But 5 years ago I experienced the exact same circumstance the you are faced with now.  It's my understanding that if  your dad was legally married then all of the property in their home goes to his spouse unless exlicitly spelled out differently in a legal will.  My father wrote some stuff down on a piece of paper right before he died.  The cunt he was married to did not abide by the wishes he wrote down after he died.  The lawyers couldn't do a thing.  

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 1:48:04 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you both for sharing.  That is what i thought would probably happen. No i don't have proof - did not think i would need it.  This woman was a thorn in my family's side for almost 40 years.  i have always been tolerant of her and supportive during my dads long drawn out illness even taking him to numerous doctor appointments each month, for years, to help them both out.  She could not take anymore time off and cannot drive in congested areas - his specialists were in Hackensack Hospital, i would travel all totaled round trip about 200 miles. 

my only solution than is either to just go and take the bowl if i can when no one is home or visit her and walk over to the bowl and smash it with a hammer.  i probably sound irrational but i am beyond angry at this point.  




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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 1:50:53 PM   
PanthersMom


Posts: 2215
Joined: 11/26/2007
From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline 		smashing it might get you arrested.  can you talk to your dad about it?
PM

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 1:52:17 PM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
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quote:

my only solution than is either to just go and take the bowl if i can when no one is home or visit her and walk over to the bowl and smash it with a hammer. i probably sound irrational but i am beyond angry at this point.


Although I understand your feelings...you propably will get more pain and a troubled mine for ever if you do that.

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 1:53:25 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Would testimony from family members be proof that it was mine?  She admits my dad came to my home when i was away (he agreed to walk my dog for me) and took it.  We had discussed him taking it and i agreed on the condition it be returned. i specifically told him i didn't want any grief from this woman after he died about the bowl - he said i wouldn't and that i would get it back.  While away i had second thoughts - knowing this woman, and was going to tell my dad i didn't think it was a good idea.   It's what the bowl represents really - something my mom absolutely treasured, on moves she wouldn't even pack it she would carry it on her lap - to see it go to the woman who eventually broke up her marriage to my dad is heartwrenching.   Why this woman wants to keep this bowl is beyond me - it's like her last stand so to speak to be the wedge between them and come hell or high water she will not succeed. 

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 1:57:38 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

smashing it might get you arrested.  can you talk to your dad about it?
PM


i wish i could but unfortunately he died this past November.  i didn't have the heart to mention it as he was dying.  i just didn't anticipate this kind of action from her with all i did for both of them.

i thought about that - getting arrested - i would simply say i accidently dropped it - she can sue me.


< Message edited by velvetears -- 1/10/2009 1:58:42 PM >

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 1:58:21 PM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		ISn't overthere soemthing like "children share". We have that overhere ( the netherlands).
When my dad died I had right of part of what he left behind..eventhough my mother lived. ( If I am correct it was 20% of all)
I had to sign a paper (volenteerd) so my mom could keep all.
They made this law so situation as yours can be prevented.

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 2:01:58 PM   
shannie


Posts: 200
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline 		The rule you mentioned applies to objects that can be replaced with money -- not to personal item such as this.

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 2:03:54 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

ISn't overthere soemthing like "children share". We have that overhere ( the netherlands).
When my dad died I had right of part of what he left behind..eventhough my mother lived. ( If I am correct it was 20% of all)
I had to sign a paper (volenteerd) so my mom could keep all.
They made this law so situation as yours can be prevented.


i don't think there is any such law here. 

i do know this woman was paranoid when she married him and had my dad go to a lawyer to legally prevent us from ever making any claims on anything he had.  He has 5 children and because of the cirsumstances of his break up with my mom and this woman being in his life for so many years when my mom was alive his children all eventually had nothing to do with him. i loved my father very much and kept close ties with him, and like i said his wife and i were amicable.  i don't want anything other than what is mine.  i am really sick about this as it puts me in a bad state of mind and it will bother me till it gets resolved one way or another. 


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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 2:11:38 PM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Unless you can show proof of ownership or some signed statement from your dad that this bowl belonged to you I don't see how you can legally get this item back.  If you have people who can say that they saw this item in your possession prior to you lending it to your dad maybe a lawyer can build a case.
If you have a friend who is a lawyer that work work pro bono, unless this bowl is worth a lot more than sentimental value I would let it go and live with the fact that it gave your father some joy while in his possession.  Possibly his ashes could be put in the bowl, and the bowl put into a sealed container, if that option is still open to you.

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 2:21:42 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Unless you can show proof of ownership or some signed statement from your dad that this bowl belonged to you I don't see how you can legally get this item back.  If you have people who can say that they saw this item in your possession prior to you lending it to your dad maybe a lawyer can build a case.
If you have a friend who is a lawyer that work work pro bono, unless this bowl is worth a lot more than sentimental value I would let it go and live with the fact that it gave your father some joy while in his possession.  Possibly his ashes could be put in the bowl, and the bowl put into a sealed container, if that option is still open to you.


It's really not possible to put his ashes in it - the bowl is really big - 1.5 to 2 ft at the widest part.  She has already has his ashes in an urn - her wanting the bowl for his ashes is a ruse. 

i was going to let him have the bowl because he did like and it was hard visiting him and seeing it displayed as i felt guilt about my mom (she would not have been happy about my decision, i feel like i betrayed her).  But the things his wife is saying now are so hurtful and mean - that my dad said the bowl was never mine, that he waited till i was away to take it because he knew i would never agree to give it to him and it was his bowl as he paid for it and had told my mom that was the only item he wanted when he left - i know this isn't true. 

The only good that will come out of all this is that she will irrevocably be out of my life for good and i won;t have to deal with her, on any level, ever again.


< Message edited by velvetears -- 1/10/2009 2:24:01 PM >

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 3:37:50 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Let go. 

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 3:49:05 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		If you have a key to the house, go take the bowl back - if it is that important to you. Seems to me possession is 9/10ths of the law -and right now she has it. She can't be a spring chicken, so put the bowl somewhere until she kicks it, then display it in memory of your mother.

I realise that legally this won't go over well, but she has to convince the police that she was robbed and that you took it and had no right to it, and get them to search your house. Somehow, i don't think the cops would go to such lengths for a bowl.

but maybe i'm wrong.
You might also get statements from friends and family regarding the provinence of the bowl - ie that your mum gave it to you. That way if they do turn up you can say excuse me , but its my bowl here are statements from f&f, and they will testify in a court about it.

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 4:02:46 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Would testimony from family members be proof that it was mine?


Sure. Such testimony will be taken into consideration by the judge and is considered evidence. The weight of the evidence will depend on the judge you get. Some judges will consider it enough and order the return of the bowl (or, more likely, monetary compensation - so sorry.. but she would have the option of paying for the value and keeping the bowl and you can't sue for punitive damages for items of property.) Do you think she's willing to lie in court? Any evidence you have that places that property within your family is good.. pictures of the bowl with family members in it, your mom holding it.. anything at all that shows the bowl.. couple that with the sworn statements of your family members and it's pretty weighty. You only have to prove with a preponderance of the evidence that the item is yours ... not beyond a reasonable doubt like a criminal trial. Since she is basically stealing it, she won't have any evidence of how it was acquired other than to lie.. and judges are pretty good at picking up on that sort of crap.

You have another option as well. Write a letter of demand (better yet, have a lawyer write it for you). If she fails to turn over your property, file a police report for theft. That might be enough to get her to turn over your property. You loaned it to your father.. it was not a gift. She's not entitled to it. If she still doesn't turn it over, take her to court. She's already got the bowl so it's not like you're going to lose by trying and you just might get your property back. Depending on the intrinsic value, small claims court is affordable and fairly easy to file. If you win the case, she'll have to pay the court costs as well.

Good luck. I'd like to hear how this all turns out.




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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 4:06:28 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		She is just seven years older than myself.    i don't have a key, i would have to go when no one was home and hope a door was left open.  i have a feeling she has it stored away because when i went up to see my dad during his last days the bowl was not in its regular spot and no where to be found anywhere my eyes could see.  

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 4:17:52 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you Bita, i haden't even thought of pictures.... i have thousands to look through, chances are the bowl has to be in one.  i am not going to get my hopes up about getting the bowl back legally but i am going to give it a shot - just on principle.  She is stealing it and she is doing it with malice in her heart.  i can try the police but i have a suspicion they will tell me to file a claim in court that it is not in their jurisdiction. 

If we do go to court good chances she will blow it as she is unstable emotionally.  i know how to handle myself under pressure in court, i have the advantage there.  i will let you know how it turns out. 

i know someone said let it go - i've let so much go, i can't this. 


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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 7:21:36 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i thought about that - getting arrested - i would simply say i accidently dropped it - she can sue me.


If you let her keep it she wins. If you destroy it, it will be gone and she will still win. You made a nice gesture for your father. Be proud of that and let it go.

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RE: Legal Inquiry - 1/10/2009 7:24:24 PM   
Lorr47


Posts: 862
Joined: 3/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Would testimony from family members be proof that it was mine?  She admits my dad came to my home when i was away (he agreed to walk my dog for me) and took it.  We had discussed him taking it and i agreed on the condition it be returned. i specifically told him i didn't want any grief from this woman after he died about the bowl - he said i wouldn't and that i would get it back.  While away i had second thoughts - knowing this woman, and was going to tell my dad i didn't think it was a good idea.   It's what the bowl represents really - something my mom absolutely treasured, on moves she wouldn't even pack it she would carry it on her lap - to see it go to the woman who eventually broke up her marriage to my dad is heartwrenching.   Why this woman wants to keep this bowl is beyond me - it's like her last stand so to speak to be the wedge between them and come hell or high water she will not succeed. 


plus " i explained to him that my mother had given me this bowl and how much it meant to me to have it. He promised me i would get it back when he died. His current wife i know knew of this as it was spoken of in front of her."

See a local attorney.  It depends on who the Court believes, you or her.  If you have other family members who back you up, great.  I think it is called a Claim and Delivery action against the person having possession of the object . In Michigan you can speak with an attorney free in the local Lawyer's Referal Service.  If you just lent it to him, it is not technically in the estate, so you (in Michigan) file I believe a Claim and Delivery.  "Its mine and I want it back."  As a last resort you could file it on your own but at least talk to a local attorney for pointers. In Michigan as I remember a Claim and Delivery action was just filling in the blanks form.  Find your local Lawyer's Referal Service for local information.

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