RE: Gaza/Israel situation (Full Version)

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Hippiekinkster -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/20/2009 1:34:14 PM)

Well, phil, I added the definition of "conflate" from Meriiam-Webster's Online Dictionary.

Here's "conflation" from Wikipedia:
"Conflation occurs when the identities of two or more individuals, concepts, or places, sharing some characteristics of one another, become confused until there seems to be only a single identity -- the differences appear to become lost.[1] In logic, the practice of treating two distinct concepts as if they were one does often produce error or misunderstanding -- but not always -- as a fusion of distinct subjects tends to obscure analysis of relationships which are emphasized by contrasts.[2]"

If you call "directly related" a conflation, so be it. What the fuck. Maybe you can explain to me how you perceive that I have fused two concepts into a single entity. If I wanted to do that, I would say (as I am very direct, and not inclined to engage in sophistry) "What Israel is doing is the same as the Germans did to the Jews."



philosophy -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/20/2009 1:46:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

If you call "directly related" a conflation, so be it. What the fuck. Think what you want.


...you called the two elements 'directly related', not me. For myself, i think just because they happened to people of the same religion implies a much more tenuous connection than you seem to see. However, that's not the only way in which you conflated these two concepts. You brought the Arabs into it.....

quote:

the Arabs would love to continue the Holocaust.


...from your post 289.

While i can concede that the victims of the holocaust share a religion with the State of Israel i don't concede a 'direct relationship' with the entire Arab world and Nazism.

(edited for bad quote marks)



MissSepphora1 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/20/2009 1:49:10 PM)

I believe terrorist attacks by Palestinian refugees in Lebanon against Christians led directly to the radical muslim attacks we are experiencing now.
If Reagan had taken out Hezbullah when they first attacked, instead of turning tail and running, all these other groups would not have the balls to repeat themn.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/20/2009 1:56:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

If you call "directly related" a conflation, so be it. What the fuck. Think what you want.


...you called the two elements 'directly related', not me. For myself, i think just because they happened to people of the same religion implies a much more tenuous connection than you seem to see. However, that's not the only way in which you conflated these two concepts. You brought the Arabs into it.....

quote:

the Arabs would love to continue the Holocaust.


...from your post 289.

While i can concede that the victims of the holocaust share a religion with the State of Israel i don't concede a 'direct relationship' with the entire Arab world and Nazism.

(edited for bad quote marks)

Well, if that's how you see what I said, that's how you see it. I can't help your perception. You'll see it the way you wish.

And if you call using two separate concepts in two separate paragraphs "conflation", then the word has lost its meaning. 



ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/20/2009 4:14:28 PM)

Philosophy, you do have to admit, that many arab governements as well as the Muslim Brotherhood (sort of the Great Grandfather of all the modern "terrorist" groups, did ally themselves with the Nazis 60 years ago.  The Baath Socialist party (which produced Saddam and still runs Syria, was tightly allyed, and funded by Hitler.  Al Husenni the Traditional leader of Jerusalem was a SS agent who gave speeches supporting the Scientific solution to the Jew Problem, and tried to recruit Muslims into the SS.  The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is popular over there, it wasn't untill the Nazis printed a million copies of it in Arabic. 

It's not the "entire Arab world". just some of them, that dervie power and wealth from a continuation of Hostilities, using the Palestinian people as pawns



Owner59 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/20/2009 4:53:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

It is only a religious war because the crazies attacking us are making it that way.
And the crazies will continue to attack us until we no longer support Israel.

And I hope to God that happens soon.  When we cut off all support for Israel, it will show that the crazies really don't need a reason to attack us, other than they think they can and get away with it.  Because that's what they've been doing for the last 30 years.


Conflating the Arab/Israeli conflict with al-queda/bin-laden is another bit of dark propaganda.They are different issues with different solutions.

Just because there`s some crazies out there doesn`t excuse us from breaking the law or killing innocents in order to get them.It`s counterproductive and helps the crazies` cause.Enough!

There`s many ways to skin a cat and obviously what been tried up to now hasn`t worked.Making the Palestinians capitulate completely before we even talk to them is a recipe for war and strife.Not peace.


One theme of today was hope over fear.

I take that to mean we aren`t going to be motivated by blind fear into lumping all Arabs/Muslims together.Or follow the "kill them all let god sort them out" policy ,just because we`re afraid to ask questions 1st.



Owner59 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/20/2009 8:52:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Philosophy, you do have to admit, that many arab governements as well as the Muslim Brotherhood (sort of the Great Grandfather of all the modern "terrorist" groups, did ally themselves with the Nazis 60 years ago.  The Baath Socialist party (which produced Saddam and still runs Syria, was tightly allyed, and funded by Hitler.  Al Husenni the Traditional leader of Jerusalem was a SS agent who gave speeches supporting the Scientific solution to the Jew Problem, and tried to recruit Muslims into the SS.  The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is popular over there, it wasn't untill the Nazis printed a million copies of it in Arabic. 

It's not the "entire Arab world". just some of them, that dervie power and wealth from a continuation of Hostilities, using the Palestinian people as pawns


So stealing Arab land and building Jewish settlements on occupied territory is "sort of the" payback for what the nazis did over 50 years ago?!??

Is this the logic that excuses theft and ethnic cleansing?

Past associations?!?

george bush the shoe dodger has closer connections to the nazis than today`s Arabs do!

WW II is over! Israel doesn`t get endless bites at the apple or automatic exoneration anymore for anything they do b/c of what the nazis did.

They have to deal with the mess they helped create or find someone else to fund and arm them.



ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 3:47:43 AM)

It only seems like that is my logic, because you are ignoring most of the history.  Luckily for me, Obama agrees more with my side of the issue.  If you want the Destruction/elimination of Isreal, you should state so openly.  I don't.



Owner59 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 6:42:54 AM)

I think that what our president and I have in common is that we don`t want anyone`s destruction,Arab or Israeli.

I think that`s best and what our policy will include soon,no/less favoritism,more equal consideration.

Soon I hope Arab blood will be worth at least as much as Israeli blood.Arab considerations and hopes will no longer be 2nd to Israel`s and that the present lop-sided approach ends.

Of course,we could always build new homes on deputed land and crush any hope for a settlement/resolution,wait for the fireworks and then carpet bomb them for "breaking the peace"[8|]........that`s worked pretty good so far[:'(].......and it`s god approved even.....[&o]



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 10:32:50 AM)

Many years ago the Arab people determined that Palestinian blood was not worth as much as their's. Why do you think they were abandoned by the other Arab nations? Why do you think they are often used as fodder for the goals of Syria, Iran and a few others?

This problem is a lot more complex than what many here have put it out to be. Looking at things historically, it will take the Arab people to take the Palestinians into their own, stop pushing an agenda to destroy Israel, and the Israeli people that are using this as an excuse to capture more land, and or eliminate enemies need to be stopped as well.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I think that what our president and I have in common is that we don`t want anyone`s destruction,Arab or Israeli.

I think that`s best and what our policy will include soon,no/less favoritism,more equal consideration.

Soon I hope Arab blood will be worth at least as much as Israeli blood.Arab considerations and hopes will no longer be 2nd to Israel`s and that the present lop-sided approach ends.

Of course,we could always build new homes on deputed land and crush any hope for a settlement/resolution,wait for the fireworks and then carpet bomb them for "breaking the peace"[8|]........that`s worked pretty good so far[:'(].......and it`s god approved even.....[&o]



ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 11:00:15 AM)

owner59, every inch of Isreal is disputed land.  Just look at history, the 67 borders brought 3 wars.  Hamas' beef is with the Existance of Isreal.  Not over borders or weopons sanctions.  If Isreal has the right to exist, it has the right to defend itself.  If you think Isreal has the right to exist, you are a Zionist.

You have already stated that you think Gaza should have full open trade (be able to rearm, get more missles).  That is the stated policy goal of Hamas, or else the war is back on.  And the Palestinian people suffer untill Hamas' goals are met.  Obama disagrees with you and Hamas.   Get used to it. 

If you truley had any consideration for Palestinian blood, you would adress the fact that Hamas has killed way over 1000 Palestinians, to sieze and maintain power.  You have ducked it  a few times in this thread.  Explain to me why Dead Palestinians are not a problem, if they are killed by a radical religious anti democratic group?



ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 11:25:18 AM)

Owner59, you need to get used to the new reality.  No longer can you project your wishes onto Obama, He's president now.  and gave a press confrence on Isreal.  The new reality is the old reality.  We are getting details of the deal.

Hamas is over, toast.  Obama is working with Abbas.  The EU is working with Abbas.  The US and EU are going to monitor all shipping to prevent Hamas from rearming.  Gaza is going to get a reconstruction, at least 2 billion in commitments (not just the US).  All reconstruction will be approved by Isreal, to not benefit Hamas.  The Arab states are working with Abbas.  No one cares about the Egyptian Hamas truce. 

Obamas policy is a lot more detailed than, "will include soon,no/less favoritism,more equal consideration."  Get with the program. 

What are you?  Some kind of Anti American Obama Opposer? 



BamaD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 11:35:09 AM)

So disagreing with Obama now makes you anti-American? 



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 11:38:14 AM)

I am sure that poster will clarify, but I read it as a sarcastic statement. During this election, many eluded, or outright said, that if you did not support Obama you were ________. Insert anything from racist, fascist, to unAmerican in that blank.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

So disagreing with Obama now makes you anti-American? 



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 11:41:27 AM)

If they can isolate that area, keeping Hamas from rearming, in combination with preventing encroachment and violations on the Israeli side, then maybe a forced peace can be brought about. I doubt it though, as there are many that will continue to use rocks and molatov's because they have been conditioned to hate Israel. This conditioning is on the Israeli side as well. It is due to the long history of violence between all of those people.

I believe as you do though, that many of the Arab states and organizations have killed and violated the Palestinian people quite a bit as well.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Owner59, you need to get used to the new reality.  No longer can you project your wishes onto Obama, He's president now.  and gave a press confrence on Isreal.  The new reality is the old reality.  We are getting details of the deal.

Hamas is over, toast.  Obama is working with Abbas.  The EU is working with Abbas.  The US and EU are going to monitor all shipping to prevent Hamas from rearming.  Gaza is going to get a reconstruction, at least 2 billion in commitments (not just the US).  All reconstruction will be approved by Isreal, to not benefit Hamas.  The Arab states are working with Abbas.  No one cares about the Egyptian Hamas truce. 

Obamas policy is a lot more detailed than, "will include soon,no/less favoritism,more equal consideration."  Get with the program. 

What are you?  Some kind of Anti American Obama Opposer? 



Owner59 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 12:58:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I am sure that poster will clarify, but I read it as a sarcastic statement. During this election, many eluded, or outright said, that if you did not support Obama you were ________. Insert anything from racist, fascist, to unAmerican in that blank.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

So disagreing with Obama now makes you anti-American? 



"forced peace"

Sounds bushavician.

And there were those who said if one supported Obama(or Hilary,or whatever) you were a _____________.Communist,socialist,elitist,pal to terrorists,etc.

Had to clarify your clarification......Orion[;)]



MissSepphora1 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 3:37:49 PM)

As soon as Arabs stop sending their sons out strapped with bombs to blow up civilians, as soon as Arabs stop killing their daughters for "honor", as soon as Arabs stop marrying said daughters off at 10 to much older men, as soon as Arabs stop attacking civilians and then complaining when they get attacked back, as soon as Arabs stop killing rape victims, as soon as Arabs stop stoning women for adultry, as soon as Arabs stop hanging gays...

wait, what were you saying about Arabs being peaceful and just like us?



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 4:09:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

As soon as Arabs stop sending their sons out strapped with bombs to blow up civilians, as soon as Arabs stop killing their daughters for "honor", as soon as Arabs stop marrying said daughters off at 10 to much older men, as soon as Arabs stop attacking civilians and then complaining when they get attacked back, as soon as Arabs stop killing rape victims, as soon as Arabs stop stoning women for adultry, as soon as Arabs stop hanging gays...

wait, what were you saying about Arabs being peaceful and just like us?


Do you know how many Muslims there are in the world??  Only a small fraction of them are the way you describe.



MissSepphora1 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 4:16:24 PM)

1 encouraging their son to kill a civilian is too many.
1 willing to kill his daughters because he brought them to the US and they became "too western" is too many.
1 Saudi Cleric telling the entire Kingdom that marrying a girl 10-12 is acceptable is too many
1 rape victim killed because she spoke out against her rapist is too many

what do percentages matter when it is happening EVERY day?



MissSepphora1 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/21/2009 4:22:51 PM)

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/17/saudi.child.marriage/


(CNN) -- The debate over the controversial practice of child marriage in Saudi Arabia was pushed back into the spotlight this week, with the kingdom's top cleric saying that it's OK for girls as young as 10 to wed.
"It is incorrect to say that it's not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger," Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh, the kingdom's grand mufti, said in remarks quoted Wednesday in the regional Al-Hayat newspaper. "A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she's too young are wrong and they are being unfair to her."





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