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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 1:47:45 PM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

Sure it was a nice place, pretty castles built by peasant serfs, paid for by plundering the world. Sure Germans did more trading for stolen loot, than actuall looting....Is the fence innoccent of the crime? Not a lot of trees.


In what countries history weren't peasanst not used. In what country did the rich not conquer and loot?
The country has a rich history....way more then 19soemthing to 1945. It had more queens/kings then the world nowadays together before it united. Many treasures came from then. Nothing to do with anything else.
We call it history...and no..history isnt always nice

And yes Europe has it flaws..but also his good things. But what continent is flawles.

It is sure eassier to look far away when flaws are plenty around the corner.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/12/2009 1:50:11 PM >

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 1:52:35 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

I have been to Germany.  Sure it was a nice place, pretty castles built by peasant serfs, paid for by plundering the world.  Sure Germans did more trading for stolen loot, than actuall looting....Is the fence innoccent of the crime?   Not a lot of trees.  

It would be going way overboard to claim that this event is like the Nazis.  And I never made that claim.  But certainly the use of mobs was part of The Nazis rise to power.  And the surrenduring to the mob is what got Hitler absolute power.  I have a reflex action of not supporting it. 

Its odd to me that Europeons get so proud of the Europeon Court of Human rights, and thier other trade and legal Unity orginizations.  The EU, Interpol, ect.  But then get all pissy when you point out there are Laws and Treaties regulating things like free expression, human rights,  that they themselves name as "europeon".   Its like they want it both ways.  


I have no idea what you're talking about. Genuinely. Something about trees, reflex actions, rights, Hitler and Interpol.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:01:01 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

I have been to Germany.  Sure it was a nice place, pretty castles built by peasant serfs, paid for by plundering the world.  Sure Germans did more trading for stolen loot, than actuall looting....Is the fence innoccent of the crime?   Not a lot of trees.  

It would be going way overboard to claim that this event is like the Nazis.  And I never made that claim.  But certainly the use of mobs was part of The Nazis rise to power.  And the surrenduring to the mob is what got Hitler absolute power.  I have a reflex action of not supporting it. 

Its odd to me that Europeons get so proud of the Europeon Court of Human rights, and thier other trade and legal Unity orginizations.  The EU, Interpol, ect.  But then get all pissy when you point out there are Laws and Treaties regulating things like free expression, human rights,  that they themselves name as "europeon".   Its like they want it both ways.  


I have no idea what you're talking about. Genuinely. Something about trees, reflex actions, rights, Hitler and Interpol.


The trees must be causing issues.  Because it's pretty clear that the OP has no concept of the Human rights bill, freedom of expression .etc.etc.etc.
And there is nothing worse that racism cloaked in 'human rights'.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/12/2009 2:02:15 PM >

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:03:39 PM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

I have no idea what you're talking about. Genuinely. Something about trees, reflex actions, rights, Hitler and Interpol


the evil walking trees from Lord of the Rings..

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:06:53 PM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
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Status: offline 		Just darkness, if you are getting from my posts a special dislike for Europe or Germans, I am being misunderstood.  That is not what I am trying to say.  We can get all historicall, and point out that it was Empires from Africa that taught Empire to the Greeks, which led to Rome, and the enlightenment and Modern era, all the way up to Hitler. 

I have mostly Europeon heritage, and so do many of my friends. 

Why is it Europeons feel free to comment on America, but get freaked out when an American comments on Europe?

"It is sure eassier to look far away when flaws are plenty around the corner. "   I agree, but why so upset at seeing a flaw in Europe pointed out.  Or some don't even see it as a flaw.  I find that very interesting.  You brought the Nazis into this discussion, not I.  But it is of course an obvious comparison.  Their play of the Mob, and the German Peoples (collectivley, not individually) reaction to the mob ,was instrumental in their gaining power.  Or is that disputable? 

So let me be clear.  Europe is no better or worse than America or any other place.  There are great people living everywhere.  And some real Bastards everywhere. 

Northern Gent, don't worry your pretty little head, just have a pint or 5 and talk football with your mates.




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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:11:42 PM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

So let me be clear. Europe is no better or worse than America or any other place. There are great people living everywhere. And some real Bastards everywhere.


agree fully
But even in Germany things happen that have nothing to do with WW2 anymore.
It is their burden perhaps...

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:20:13 PM   
ArticMaestro


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Status: offline 		I guess it is hard for some folks to follow from post to post in a thread, so they get confused...

Just darkness, "Please visit it.(Germany)...and then rejudge.
YOu make it sound like WW2 never ended. "

And I told him I had in fact been there, and gave a few of my highlight impresssions of the place.  The lack of trees was very pronounced to me.  It was like the land was dead, all of the natural systems reworked by man.  Much of the USA is like that also.  Regrowth forests are not the same.  One of the reasons I love Alaska so much.  If you haven't experienced (wild land), I can't really explain it.  It seems to have something to do with the massive fungi covering miles that exist in natural land, but that isn't exactly right, there is more and less to it. 

And I have to point out I did not bring up Hitler or ww2.  Just darkness did. 

And we are seeing that some Europeons feel a need to attempt to derail the thread.  I wonder why?  They could rebut what I said or attempt to show I am wrong, but instead they want it derailed.  Interesting.




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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:23:26 PM   
ArticMaestro


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Status: offline 		Darcy, I didn't quite get that.  Are you calling me a racist or something?

Could you expound on,
"  Because it's pretty clear that the OP has no concept of the Human rights bill, freedom of expression .etc.etc.etc.
And there is nothing worse that racism cloaked in 'human rights'. "

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:26:37 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro
One of the reasons I love Alaska so much.  If you haven't experienced (wild land), I can't really explain it.  It seems to have something to do with the massive fungi covering miles that exist in natural land, but that isn't exactly right, there is more and less to it. 


...UK ex-pat living in Northern BC here and i do know what you mean. But, to be fair, Europe has been lived in by far larger numbers, at much greater concentrations, for centuries. No surprise it wears that fact on its landscape.

quote:

And we are seeing that some Europeons feel a need to attempt to derail the thread.  I wonder why?  They could rebut what I said or attempt to show I am wrong, but instead they want it derailed.  Interesting.


...seriously, you don't think that some US posters do the same? i seem to remember one poster who, when faced with a hard question from a non-US citizen on US policy point blank refused to accept that anyone from outside the US had any right to comment. Derailing threads is a non-national trait.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:37:21 PM   
ArticMaestro


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Status: offline 		philosophy, I am certainly trying to be fair in my comment on Wild lands/trees, I already admitted much of the USA is the same.  But I do think living long term in such an enviroment does cause very negative effects on the Psyche and Health of people.  Europe has more people living that way, and has for a longer time.  Anyway it was one of my strongest impressions of the place. 

Surley you are not trying to say 2 wrongs make a right?   About the derailing, and mind your own bussiness posts.  You will never catch me using or supporting that tactic.


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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:42:19 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		If the cloak fits, wear it if you wish.
I did not, however, call you anything.
I did note that you have a lack of human rights knowledge.  We can discuss obvious provocation if you desire?  That would be far more appropriate to the thread and to the issue of human rights issues.
 
the.dark.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:49:38 PM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		Sure why don't you do that. 

Oh so you mean the Mob that wanted to go violent at the sight of a Jewish symbol was racist, while pretending to be marching for "human rights".  I agree that is pretty bad, though there are worse things.

So a  flag in a 3rd story window is provocation to violence.....

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 2:56:41 PM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

This shouldn't come as a surprise, but I have a feeling it will.

1) Germany: nation of Germans, a land where the mullet is a national obsession, 80 million inhabitants, located in central Europe.

2) Europe: a big fucking place, with many constituent parts - Spaniards, Greeks, Scots, Poles etc - all with their own culture and heritage, a continent.


Unfortunatly something that isnt actually pointed out enough, the UK is in Europe so technically we are europeans but that doesnt really mean anything other than the fact that we are on a continent it doesnt mean we are all the same. Hell living in the same country doesnt mean we are all the same.

To the OP why is much acceptable anywhere? people do amazingly stupid things. However the person who put up the flag pretty much said that it was done to cause drama. Also its a blog not a news report so lets not raise our arms in the air and cry 'what about the children' just yet the article is almost without a doubt factually inaccurate. 'pinch of salt' comes to mind. If this person is the type to put up a flag to cause drama during what seems to be according to the source a protest that could have killed people (btw has anyone seen this in the news? a protest of 10,000 people involving rocks and knives?) then it wouldnt be a stretch of the imagination that they would want to stir in a blog.

< Message edited by colouredin -- 1/12/2009 3:15:19 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 3:11:24 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Absolutely.
The route was already well organised.  The people installing the flag to me, was a clear issue of provocation - But to violence?  Quite possibly, however even if there was no physical violence, it would have provoked some sort of disorder, even if that was breaking and entering.  Personally I would have left them to a mob, but that isn't the issue.  The issue is the safety of other people in the building and other innocent bystanders.  It's not like the flag was there all the time but put there purposefully, or so the gentleman states in numerous reports.  If there was no hint of provocation, why be prepared to video it from 'across the street'?  Why then issue the video on youtube?  Why post about the incident on a blog?  Free speach?  Yes.  Provocation?  Yes. Stupidity?  Absofuckinglutely.
 
Whilst the possibility of violence should never be acceptable, this isn't a human rights issue.  Had the flag been on permenant display for a prolonged period of time, that was completely legal due to local laws and licenses, then that would be completely different.  This is nothing more than laughing in the face of human rights issues.  Inciting violence is not acceptable either.
 
the.dark.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 3:18:22 PM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro
The lack of trees was very pronounced to me.  It was like the land was dead, all of the natural systems reworked by man. 


Lack of trees in germany??? where have you been in germany at the north coast??? Or in Muenchen, Hamburg, Frankfurt???

My mum owns a forest (its inherited from generation to generation in our family) and 26th december 1999 "Lothar" found plenty trees to take out of our forests down there as you can see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_(storm)

We had luck as our forest only lost one tree, but we know people who faced the situation that they would need 1 million german mark to get all the damaged trees out of their forest and another million to get it worked with, who really had to face real problems about how to continue their business with living and being dependent on the forest. As a child we used to play a lot in the forest as it was so close and also later when I worked in a childrens village 3 hours drive away that was even far more surrounded by forest....

so I am quite astonished to hear about a lack of trees in my country I am from... Come over and I show you trees...*sigh*

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 1/12/2009 3:30:16 PM >

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 4:30:13 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

A while back we did a thread on how the Germans and the ECHR, don't really care about torturing a criminal defendant, if they know he is a really bad guy (even though no trial has been held). 



This comment show your ignorance of the case you mention and the workings of the ECHR. I suggest you read the thread again.


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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 4:59:47 PM   
thornhappy


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Status: offline 		Anyone see this in a wire report or from a news service?  All I've seen so far is blog entries.

The CBC had this to say about protests in Germany:

"In Germany, some 8,500 people rallied in Berlin's Alexanderplatz and then marched to the city's main train station. Hundreds of police were deployed along the route and several Hamas flags were confiscated from the protesters. No serious incidents were reported, however, police said.

In the western German city of Duisburg, 10,000 marched. "We want to show our solidarity with the victims in the Gaza Strip and signal our opposition to the oppression and violence in Gaza," said organizer Engin Karahan."

No mention of the flag there.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 5:22:52 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro
The lack of trees was very pronounced to me.  It was like the land was dead, all of the natural systems reworked by man. 


Lack of trees in germany??? where have you been in germany at the north coast??? Or in Muenchen, Hamburg, Frankfurt???

My mum owns a forest (its inherited from generation to generation in our family) and 26th december 1999 "Lothar" found plenty trees to take out of our forests down there as you can see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_(storm)

We had luck as our forest only lost one tree, but we know people who faced the situation that they would need 1 million german mark to get all the damaged trees out of their forest and another million to get it worked with, who really had to face real problems about how to continue their business with living and being dependent on the forest. As a child we used to play a lot in the forest as it was so close and also later when I worked in a childrens village 3 hours drive away that was even far more surrounded by forest....

so I am quite astonished to hear about a lack of trees in my country I am from... Come over and I show you trees...*sigh*
There was a small "lake" on the edge of Feldkirchen, where I had rented a flat for my stay in München. It was less than 1 hectare in size. Where I grew up (upstate NY), we called that a pond. Ontario is a lake.

Perhaps there is the same sort of difference in perception at work here. When I think of a forest, I think of the National Forest north of where I live
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattahoochee_National_Forest
which is 3500 km^2, or a little more than 4 times the area of Berlin-Brandenburg.
Kodiak Island, Alaska, where I spnet almost a month helping build a cabin near Larsen Bay, is mostly forest. The forested area is about 3 times the size of the Saarland.

Difference in conceptual reference, I think.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 5:26:10 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BbwCanaDomme

I don't think it's so much that it's acceptable in Europe, as they were trying to defuse the situation.


so if a mob were calling for someone to be lynched and the police killed him, would you chalk that up to defusing the situation as well?

a population that has no qualms violating the property of another and a police force that has no problem violating the property of a nother if an ignorant mob desires it for a moment is a very scary thing.


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: More on German human rights... - 1/12/2009 5:30:48 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BbwCanaDomme

If my freedom of expression is putting other people in my building at risk; go for it. Seriously. I would not be upset. I would probably have the good sense to take it down before police had to intervene though.


let's not confuse freedom of expression with aggression.


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