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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 4:00:45 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

Milli Gorus the organizers, are refusing comment, and the leader is out of the country/unavailable.  The group is under survielance by German Intelligence groups, for a host of crimes and connections to radicals.  They are openly anti democratic.  Apperantly an ethnic Turkish muslim group.


Milli Gorus is not popular amongst many Turkish people over here either...gladly. The state tries to keep them out..because they preach hate.
They are huge in Germany. 
Extreme on which ever side you are..is mostly bad ofcourse.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 5:41:29 AM   
corysub


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Status: offline 		I don't really think this instance is a case to be made against Germany and the issue of human rights.  I'm sure there are probably numerous other cases that local people could bring up pro or con that discussion.  However, while I feel Hamas started the conflict with its relentless barrage of  rockets, somewhere between 6-8,000, and the Israel reacting to protect its people as any other government would do in a like situation.

This particular instance,however, is very easy to "Monday morning quarterback" and say the police made a mistake...something they said days later, or you can put yourself in the police officers that day who maybe were not thinking of political inferences by their action but were trying to protect life and limb of innocent people.  You listen to the crowd chanting and whistling, shouting anti-Jew curses, and at time time it seemed to me the crowd was just
one anarchist away from torching that building in addition to the ice, rocks and snowballs that they were throwing.  I'm sure if anyone who asked someone's parents, children,  or a mom and her kids shaking in their apartment that horrible day if the police did the right thing their answer would be a resounding yes. Could you imagine if that huge apartment complex had been set afire what the press would have said about the police NOT taking aggressive
action?? Suppose it was your apartment house. 

Again, I'm not judging the incendiary action of the fellow putting out those flags knowing the parade of protestors would go by their apartment..he should know better, nor am I judging the crowd...but I am judging that the police did the right thing.  Next time they might not act in the same manner and those who are protesting on chat pages or letters to the editors but don'w have any personal responsibility to protect the public will have to live with their views  and will have to share the guilt.
                                               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da3HWDJImgo

< Message edited by corysub -- 1/14/2009 5:43:18 AM >

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 5:53:49 AM   
Sanity


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So you're saying, it's not alright to be Jewish in modern Germany. And if you are you had better hide that fact best you can. If you're open about it... bam. You deserve what you get.

Or put another way, if you're a black and the Klan is in town, you're saying you need to hide lest you incite violence or provoke negative association...

One should hide anything that makes them at all unique or different, and mobs should be allowed to do as they will.

That about sum it up?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

And lets not confuse freedom of expression with admitting the decision to incite violence or provoke negative association.
 
the.dark.


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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 6:01:11 AM   
MadAxeman


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Status: offline 		Those protesting against the bombing of the gaza strip hardly equate to the KKK.
This kind of thinking is becoming sickening.
You bring another 9/11 ever nearer.


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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 6:05:41 AM   
jazana


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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 6:26:23 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		No one doubts the event.  There was a walkby protest.  Someone hung a flag because of the protest to make a statement.  Police removed it.  People hurled insults.  People removed themselves from the area that they new would be a focus point for possible violence.  It's not what was done, it is how it was done and the motive behind it.  I do believe in the right of anyone to hang what they desire in their own home as long as it is within local laws.  I do believe in the freedom to protest.  I find name calling distasteful and childish.  I just think in this case, the guy was an idiot and he didn't care about the other people in his building or the local police as long as he made a point - or he would have stood his own ground.  He knew exactly what he was doing by his actions alone.  This isn't a muslim nor a jewish issue - and that I find appalling frankly because this could of highlighted the atrocities on BOTH sides and that would have been a human rights issue but instead it's about a single man who was an idiot and becomes all .me.me.me.
Like I said, I don't see this as a human rights issue.  Immaturity?  Yes.  Stupidity?  Yes.
Ymmv.

the.dark.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 6:28:58 AM   
Sanity


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A mob threatening to burn down an apartment complex on account of an Israeli flag IN GERMANY doesn't remind you of any other infamous hate groups?

Or is it more, certain hate groups are perfectly acceptable in your mind.


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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 6:29:02 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
So you're saying, it's not alright to be Jewish in modern Germany. And if you are you had better hide that fact best you can. If you're open about it... bam. You deserve what you get.

Or put another way, if you're a black and the Klan is in town, you're saying you need to hide lest you incite violence or provoke negative association...

One should hide anything that makes them at all unique or different, and mobs should be allowed to do as they will.

That about sum it up?


No.
And as usual sanity, you only make yourself look silly, instead of making an actual point that means anything.  Or at least something.
 
the.dark.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 6:41:42 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		You know, the only thing I am getting out of threads like this and one a few weeks back is that people still blame all of germany for the holocaust - busting a bubble here - everyone was to blame to allow it to occur.  But basically that is what it is coming down to isn't it?  That because it's in Germany - which people keep repeating and putting in BIG BOLD LETTERS - that is more the issue than the issue itself and that is what I find most disturbing.
 
No offense to the OP, because I do believe it was meant to be a post about the state of human rights and the whole european rubbish - which is what it is and if your from the UK that is how it is often felt - but then you get other posters coming in making it into something else(myself included because I don't believe it was but meh - I had my say).
 
You know, in fifty years time, you will have people disgusted with the states for the same violations, just as germany has now.  Just as the UK had a hundred years ago.  Mud sticks.  In another hundred years, there will be another country being condemned for its abuses and that will be looked down upon.  So what really is the issue here?  That nobody ever learns from the mistakes of others and that the sins of the fathers are always carried and used to abuse their offspring. 
What is saddest is that forgiveness is always forgotten and never utilised.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/14/2009 6:50:11 AM >

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 6:58:01 AM   
Sanity


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When you find yourself so desperate that you begin reaching for personal attacks in the place of reasoned argument, you are the one who is taking the exact place you're describing, dark - and I am going to ignore your outburst.

Regarding the actual topic, why do you argue that marching down the street and making threatening noises is the only acceptable form of free speech in this situation. They were being far, FAR more antagonistic than the fellow with the flag, yet you blame the quiet man with the little flag for the mob action...

What if it were the other way around. What if it were a Jewish mob, threatening an apartment with a Palestinian flag... whose side would you trumpet.

Don't bother replying - it's rhetorical, and I already know the answer.

You lash out at me emotionally that way only because I am forcing you to confront something within yourself that makes you upset to see...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

No.
And as usual sanity, you only make yourself look silly, instead of making an actual point that means anything.  Or at least something.
 
the.dark.







< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/14/2009 7:04:51 AM >

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 7:45:03 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
When you find yourself so desperate that you begin reaching for personal attacks in the place of reasoned argument, you are the one who is taking the exact place you're describing, dark - and I am going to ignore your outburst.


Cool if you think that.  I believe most can see behind your innuendo and double standards sanity.  And your appalling and as someone else said, sickening thinking.  You take a handful of words out of context and make them into something new.  What do you not get about that sentance you highlighted before sanity?  Rosa Parkes was an advocate of human rights.  Do not confuse the two.

quote:

Regarding the actual topic, why do you argue that marching down the street and making threatening noises is the only acceptable form of free speech in this situation. They were being far, FAR more antagonistic than the fellow with the flag, yet you blame the quiet man with the little flag for the mob action...


I did not.  I said that if you incite violence, then why should people protect you?  That goes for both the mob and the single man.  The only people that deserve assistance are those caught up in the middle.  Those being the other people in the apartment block and their posessions.

quote:

What if it were the other way around. What if it were a Jewish mob, threatening an apartment with a Palestinian flag... whose side would you trumpet.

Don't bother replying - it's rhetorical, and I already know the answer.


Meh, rhetorical questions are so passe, do you not find?   And second guessing is the easy and unhealthy option.  I will place in your hands the facts.
 
Their political, religious and ethnic affiliation is not the issue for me.  I would respond in the same way.  The only people whos rights are the issue in this are those outside of both affiliations.  If you want to provoke violence - go ahead.  If you want to walk up and down the street go ahead.  If it touches no one else and your doing it for yourself, breaks no local laws, then that is freedom of expression and speach.  Expect that not everyone will agree and that there will be a consequence to your actions.

quote:

You lash out at me emotionally that way only because I am forcing you to confront something within yourself that makes you upset to see...


'Force' is laughable - and yet, strangely apt for this thread.  I am totally at ease with my own issues, foibles, and mistakes and understand them all sanity.  Are you?  And just to make sure we are clear about this.  What exactly am I forced to see?  You are not one to skimp on insults and attempted provocation usually - why hold back now.  Say what you mean or do not bother with pale innuendo.  It places you on the same level as those instigators mentioned in this thread.
What I do not like to see myself, however, is in the shoes of those people who had nothing to do with either side.  The police.  The apartment dwellers.  The people passing on the street who had to pass because that is where they live or work.
 
the.dark.


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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 8:21:07 AM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		This is pointless, but I will reiterate:

The concept is quite simple, it only has to be complex if you want to make the stark reality of the situation go away.

That mob was no better than a Klan march, or a Nazi rally. 

They weren't peaceful protesters by any stretch, they were riotous hatemongers who should have been contained by whatever means necessary.

And appeasing them by violating the rights of the object of their hatred was flat out wrong.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 8:32:28 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		As was hanging the flag in the first place.  If the man was not mindful in advance of the possible and indeed probably reactions of his provocation, why was he not inside the building but instead filming it from across the street.  His actions clearly show he was aware.  And that he showed no care for his neighbours.
 
Neither were in the right.  Both were hate mongerers as you use that word.
 
The people inside the building are the innocent people in all this.  If this thread is supposedly about human rights and not an anti-german or anti european thread, then it is their rights that were infringed, no one elses.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/14/2009 8:34:57 AM >

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 8:48:31 AM   
Sanity


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They have the right to protest, he has a right to protest.

Taking either right away (you) or threatening mob violence (they) is intolerance.


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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 9:02:09 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


They have the right to protest, he has a right to protest.

Taking either right away (you) or threatening mob violence (they) is intolerance.



I wouldn't call it intolerance.
But if you place people at risk that are not party to either, then they should be protected.  Unfortunately this is rarely the case.
 
What I find makes a mockery out of all of this is the fact that the question posed by the man who instigated the violence - rather than sticking to his guns and asking why this 'mob' was underestimated by officals and police, the closing issue is more about who is going to pay for his door.
Hmmm... 'Freedom of Speach' and 'Rights to Protest' rocks, doesn't it - as long as there is blame - and a checkbook - at the end?
 
the.dark.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 9:30:24 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		the.dark,

Without trying to get into the middle of any personal issues (I like and respect both you and Sanity), I'd like to put my 2 cents in on the issue.

My reading of what you are saying in respect to free speech fits in well with the US version of speech that isn't protected here, such as the "fighting words doctrine"

Basically, if the words or actions are (within a very narrow limitation) meant to incite violence, then it is no longer protected speech.

If I follow your logic correctly, you view the actions of the individuals who placed the flag as following within the meaning of "fighting words" and therefore shouldn't be protected, and therefore the police took appropriate action.

Sanity is arguing the position that such an action (placing the flags) does not fall within the scope of "fighting words" and is therefore protected speech, and the police acted incorrectly.

The resolution of the matter is both a legal and a philosophical point.

I do not know what the German legal position is, and therefore do not know if the police acted within the legal strictures of their Grundgesetz and free speech case law.

From a philosophical point of view, I must agree with Sanity, however.

To me, one of the basic elements of a free society is the ability (and right) of people with unpopular positions being able to get their message out.

The question of who is more to blame in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is debatable, but taking actions in support of a mob to the detriment of the ability of an opposing position is the first step to mob rule, and an indication of tyranny of the masses.

It leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 1/14/2009 9:31:12 AM >

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 9:48:21 AM   
ArticMaestro


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Status: offline 		If it touches no one else and your doing it for yourself, breaks no local laws, then that is freedom of expression and speach.  Expect that not everyone will agree and that there will be a consequence to your actions.


This contradicts your previous allusion to Rosa Parks.  She was breaking local laws.  She was doing it for all, It touched the entire nation.  And plenty of Civil rights actions caused riots and violence, which were very inconvienent or scary to bystanders.

Just darkness, who is not in agreement with me on this thread, notes that Milli Gorus is an extreme hate group.  An ethnically religous based hate group.  Sounds very KKK like to me.  Many of the marchers had thier faces covered also.

I just don't think that because a radical mob shows up in thier town, people hould have to kow tow to it. 

At least the Social Democrats in Germany, see it my way.  It's not All Germans or Europeons.  There are certainly obvious paralells to Nazi mobs, but thats not the point I was making. 

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 10:20:24 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I cant see the problem here. The police removed the flag to de-escalate the potential for violence. Germany, like most other European countries allowed supporters of both sides to hold marches. The majority passed of peacefully but in London and a couple of other places riot police were used to ensure the safety of Israeli properties. There was no mention of a mob threatening to burn down a housing complex, not that I have seen.

As for hate speach, last time there was a similar protest in London, the police took action afterwards, using CCTV as evidence. Several people with anti-semetic flags were convicted.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 10:33:40 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Hello Firm.  Regards to you as always and love and hugs to Treasure.
Thank you for pulling me back to earth.
 
On your issue I wanted to make the statement that I do not support the mob, nor the man in question.  I do not like mob mentality regardless of what they support.  I don't support idiocy either and this man clearly knew what he was doing and even openly admits that in reports and blog interviews.   I agree from a philosophical pov that people should be able to get their message out.  But this mans 'point' was to show that such a mob of people would be violent to open provocation.  Not of whom he supports.  And now his point is who will fix his door.  Had I been in his shoes I would have no concern about my own door.  Not to be flipant but this man has no interest in freedoms, but only in his own name.
I support the rights of those who are caught up in such 'conflict' and the rights of those people to be able to go about their lives as they normally do without the fear of losing their homes, possessions and possibly their lives.  I believe the authorities were way out of their depth and they should learn from this.  With correct supervision, it is possible that such an event could have been avoided.
 
What leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the insinuation that because 'it's germany', it's ok to claim that this is a anti semitic issue and detract from the human right violation that really occured to those whose apartments may have been at risk.
 
the.dark.

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RE: More on German human rights... - 1/14/2009 10:44:17 AM   
ArticMaestro


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Status: offline 		I am still not seeing how viewing a symbol in someone's home is open provocation to violence.  The man has a history of flying that flag in his window. 

His rights were curtailed and his property damaged to appease a violent mob, of course he should get compensation, at least to fix the property damaged by the law.  Haven't seen any evidence that he is trying for a civil rights jackpot, massive payout.

After the Mob had passed and there were just a few folks hanging out cursing at him (yelling Dirty Jew!), and the Police ordered his friend to leave his home, You support that?   There was no mob at that point.  The police allowed people to hang out and harrass him.  Why do you support that?

I think the man had every right in the world to hang that flag.  And the Mob had no right to attack.   I think he wanted to see how Milli Gorus would react, and he wanted the world to see how Milli Gorus would react.  

At least some in Germany agree with me.  We wll see how it all plays out.


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