FullfigRIMAAM1
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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
Sure. Each person' s desire to be or not in a relationship depends on the sum of that that brings satisfaction and that that brings dissatisfaction. Why do you think I dispute this point? I guess what made me think this was, your looking for, or ascribing motivations to Lunavenus and her slaves. You made it sound like she is coercing them into giving her somethig of monetary value, and suggesting they aren't there of their own choosing, or because they care for/adore her, but because there are so few fem dommes to choose from.
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My issue is with the idea that attention must be earned monetarily. I think attention can be earned by attracting desire Humans and animals attract attention from one another in many ways; yes money and power is one way; Beauty, sexiness, misteriousness are others, etc...
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From what I can see the argument aims to achieve convenience (monetary or through labor) that can be had due to the supply and demand ratios or whatever other forces that may allow it First of all, there are more women in the world than men. That there may be more alleged male submissives than women, is highly disputable in my opinion. As to whatever other forces allow it, it's called the mating game. Women wear heels that break their backs, and wear uncomfortable clothes, etc, etc to attract a man they think will serve them well.
Believe when I tell you, that no man will give up his money without plenty of desire inspired in him. That a man takes care of a dominat lady financially, is completely natural to me. It's not a necessity obviously, that he make much money at all. I've made more money than 70% of the men I've dated or married, and have shared without any qualms.
If a lady values herself, and she has a relationship with a submissive man, why would what he owns be off limits to her. I'm not suggesting her managing him and his possessions as an absolute; if the man is a better manager, and doesn't utilize it against her, than there's no reason for her not to allow him to manage their finances.
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Receiving money or gifts upon command is convenient--it is not a gesture of affection when it is on command I agree, and for this reason, I think gold diggers are amateurs, when the gold should be brought willingly, and freely. 
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When I hear someone say that they get tribute only because it helps them know that the man is sincere, or because otherwise they would not have time, the reason given does not appeal to me intellectually and I see a different reason at play. I give the reasons why it does not appeal to me intellectually and have never seen an effective counterargument You're not on the other side of the kneel, so you may not always know why people arrive at their destinations emotionally or intellectually. A LOT of men who profess to be submissive are in fact not. There are hundreds, if not thousands of men who want to delve into wiitwd, but they lack the balls to seek it out and live their lives honestly. A great many of them are liars, some for nearly understandable reasons like marriage/girfriend, others just because they are disingenuous, for fear of god knows what.
I date a gentleman who had a few issues, because I used to fancy myself a savior of troubled souls. Among his issues: he was cheap, he's mostly attracted to women of color, but his family disapproves; and he was ambivalent about his bisexuality. I responded to someone before, whatever one is ambivalent to give up, I want; so naturally, I backed him against the wall a few times, got what I wanted, until it was no longer fun for me.
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You see the situation as one who seeks a broader relationship and react to subs who seek to exploit you (or the group with which you identify) sexually. I see the situation as one who seeks and is willing to give towards a broader relationship and react to dommes who seek to exploit me (or the group with which I identify) monetarily. If you think that there are not dommes who try to manipulate or compel subs into giving tribute, our observations and perspectives about what realities exist differ Of course there are dommes who want something you're not willing to give, as there are subs who want something I'm not willing to give. I'm not really bothered by the idea, given that all folks seeking are adults, and should cultivate common sense before playing this adult game.
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Sure, and a sub who does not want to give to a relationship would be well matched with a domme who is seeking to give him what he seeks for monetary exchange. However, it is not uncommon for these subs to direct their approach at dommes who seek a full relationship and not just sexual jollies. Similarly, it is not uncommon for dommes who seek tribute for sake of monetary gain to direct their approach at subs who seek a personal relationship We agree, and while I like to defend folks who are taken advantage of or lied to, very often I've noticed it's a pattern in the way they live. As someone has said before on these boards (LuckyAlbatross), if one keeps picking the same type over and over again, it's one's choice that needs to be refined from within. Each of us has to take responsibility for our choices, especially if we keep making the same ones that don't work.
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I don't think the nature of the relationship necessitates being cared for in this manner, which is the point I make to dispute that presented by LunaVenus Of course it's not a necessity, I don't think; but if I were poly, and had 2 or 3 slaves that make what I do in salary, I would still work once or twice a week, because I like what I do, but it wouldn't be necessary for me to work to keep the bills paid. The slaves she owns, are hers to manage as she sees fit, and if she feels like they can provide for her to be available more often to them, more power to her. I would hope that if they are in any way dissatisfied with the setup, they can walk, as it is not a legal ownership anyway.
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subject of the thread focuses on monetary tribute, past discussions and some of her comments might suggest labor under similar justification. I hold the same perspective with respect to labor: (1) I support provision of labor where it is presented willfully versus compelled due to the ratios, and (2) to say that receiving labor is a necessity usually does not address the primary motivation, which is the convenience of receiving labor.
.Cheers,
Sea You just lost me Sea, LOL. This is the comment that prompted the fairness or 50/50 response. What is a submissive for if I can't expect anything from him? Granting that my expectations are not the same as everyone elses; I would say, that if we are going to call him submissive, he is going to take on some of the tasks I find distasteful. The only way I would ever cohabitate or marry again, is if my man willingly cooks, cleans, does laundry, and puts out to my specifications,. 
Of course, my primary motivation is not for someone to do work for free; I get offers very frequently from men in my area, many younger, some older, to come and do things at my home. I don't accept, because I'm not looking for a servant for whom I have no responsibility or special affection, but a relationship.
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Indeed I am a strong advocate for fairness when it comes to consent.
I think defying consent outright is unequivocally wrong. I think manipulating consent for self-serving reasons is unfair. Do you feel differently? I think that D/s or M/s relationships are inherently unfair, and I openly admit to wanting, and having had, unfair and unbalanced relationships of this sort. Manipulation happens, sometimes openly, sometimes not, and often for self serving reasons. I for example will openly suggest that a man I'm going out with, not wear certain things when out with me.
I don't approve of underhanded manipulation, but it's something many people do, and it's up to each to decide if he/she can live with the uneasy feeling their left with when dealing with a dishonest person. It is not for us however to judge each person's motivation though, not being in their shoes...
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I feel the same way. To the extent you suggest that those who object to tribute would not take care of someone they love, I disagree.
Cheers,
Sea I didn't suggest that at all. I suggested that people who care for one another, often give freely of what they have, and it's not called tribute; it's called generosity, which is a wonderful quality in any human being. M
< Message edited by FullfigRIMAAM1 -- 1/19/2009 12:48:25 AM >
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The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm
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RE: Tributes and Genuine Dommes - 
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