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RE: Insane situation? - 1/18/2009 4:34:42 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

What would your personal concerns with such a situation be?


I'd want to know that the submissive didn't have hidden health problems that might be exacerbated, and that, as the dominant individual, I had sufficient knowledge of the person to be able to determine whether that submissive individual's physical, emotional, mental, spiritual health is intact through the experience.

quote:

If both people had given consent for such a situation and fully looked at the risks involved etc would you deem them insane for going ahead?


If they both gave consent, with full understanding of the criteria, I don't it would be any of my business, unless I was one of the people involved. I wouldn't be one of the people involved in a situation like this, not because I think it is insane, but because what I would be looking for in a servant wouldn't be met by a servant in this situation, but I might consider it as either a discipline or agreed-upon scene for a pre-determined period of time. (I went through something similar -- solitary confinement in a silent, dark cell for 10 days as part of my early spiritual training in monastery, so my determination of whether the individuals are 'insane' is likely heavily biased by my positive experience.)

quote:

Would you call such a situation extreme?


Yes, I would consider the situation extreme, and meriting special consideration and due diligence.


quote:

Would you even consider such a situation possible?


Yes, for a limited period of time -- but over an extended period of time, I would anticipate deterioration in both physical and extra-physical health.

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/19/2009 11:20:13 AM   
VeryNastyDom


Posts: 403
Joined: 9/23/2006
Status: offline 		A lot would depend on the basement; in my house the lower level is probably the nicest part!  However, for your "normal" basement of poured concrete or cinder blocks, I would be concerned mostly about the sub's health.  Are there proper toilet facilities or are we talking about a bucket?  Is the sub confined in a small space, or can they exercise and walk around?  Is the basement dark 24X7  unless the Dom is there to visit?  In case of a fire, does the sub have a way to escape?

Without those answers, it is hard to know how far is too far.  At some point, if the circumstances are too extreme then consent becomes meaningless. 

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/19/2009 11:32:53 AM   
NCNutCase


Posts: 129
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		Understanding this question was born from a conversation discussing extremes... and are some extreme requests believable...

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryNastyDom
Without those answers, it is hard to know how far is too far.  At some point, if the circumstances are too extreme then consent becomes meaningless. 


WOW!!! If the circumstances are too extreme... consent is meaningless? WOW!!!
So even though two people are willing to do something that is in and of itself an unhealthy extreme... their consent doesn't matter? That's what I thought, But I said they would be insane to agree to it... :-D

Of course when I said that, I also clarified that "watered down" versions of the unhealthy extreme could be supplied in a way that is not only sane, but a lot of fun!

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/19/2009 11:32:53 AM   
DavanKael


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Status: offline 		After getting to see the results of a water pipe bursting in my very own basement this weekend, I can definitely say that fire isn't the only consideration.  Even in a really plush, comfy basement (Which mine was and will be again, damn it!), water where it ought not be would make it quickly unpleasant. 
  Davan

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/19/2009 12:40:25 PM   
mummyman321


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From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		If it is a consentual agreement, the no I do not consider it insane. It does play to the extreme from my perspectice but some people are into the extreme side.

Where do you draw the line for what is extreme, insane? This is a subjective measurement that each individual must make for themselves.

I personally get into mummification scenes lasting 24 to 36 hours. Many consider this extreme and insane.

I try not to judge others. Without knowing all the circumstances it is really hard to decide. For instance a 36 hour mummification scene with a person who only has been into BDSM for 6 months is very unrealistic. On the other hand if you have 15+ years experience in doing it and have done it before, then it still might be extreme but it is also very real.

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/19/2009 3:45:29 PM   
DelilahDeb


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Status: offline 		I'll quote Jay Wiseman: 75% of all the kink-related injuries requiring trips to the emergency room, including deaths, involve unattended bondage. Whether the basement in question is a luxury flat with full amenites, or a straw-lined cell worthy of the Count of Monte Cristo, is beside the point.

And I don't know about y'all, but *I* need to use the toilet more than thrice a day!

Lady Delilah Deb

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/19/2009 4:02:46 PM   
winterlight


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Joined: 2/18/2006
Status: offline 		Insane. What if something happened to the Dom? Who would know where she was?

What if somebody found her? Would he be arrested for anything in regards to her safety or anything else?

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/19/2009 4:24:51 PM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		I notice that nobody mentioned that this is actually something that happens routinely, sometimes for years, so we know the risks fairly well.

The US government routinely keeps prisoners in this kind of condition in solitary confinement, even without any human contact at all (feeding happens through a slot in the door). It seems to be particularly prevalent in Guantanamo, but from what I hear also in civilian prisons.

So we know:

- It is considered torture. But then, much else that we do in BDSM also is considered torture.
- People die. Unlike here, in a prison, neither safety, sanity nor consent play a major role, and prisoners are often unmonitored for very long periods.
- The vast majority of people will come through it. Some will have permanent mental issues, others won't.
- There is a large body of people trained in handling this type of situation; many - although not all - Marines are undergoing this type of training (both on the giving and receiving end).


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RE: Insane situation? - 1/21/2009 3:27:15 AM   
DDfemme


Posts: 4
Joined: 1/12/2009
Status: offline 		I don't think it's insane at all.  I actually have a similar fantasy.  I mean - I don't think that's helathy - physically or emotionally - to do for extended periods of time but the fantasy I have was to take a week's vacation and serve His every whim; to sit at his feet; be used for whatever purpose (sexually or otherwise); chained away in a closet/attic/basement when He didn't need me (especially for sleep time).
I find it very arousing if you are at the complete and utter mercy of someone - so long as it's someone you trust.  I wouldn't mind being treated like something disposable for a week.  I like to be humiliated so what better way than to be left like an abused animal but feel safe in the fact I know I'm going to resume my "normal" lifestyle at the end of that predetermined period.
How very erotic!

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/21/2009 3:53:03 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		And yet, ML, people do it to themselves frequently - when they go on spiritual/religious retreats, for instance, where they have no contact with another soul for some days, some weeks, and in some cases, some months, and yet, that is perceived to be socially acceptable. They have access to food, to water, but conditions are often minimalistic and some people decide to limit themselves even on basic necessities to help them regenerate, regain balance etc... and then, some are quite luxurious.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLamia
To me leaving anyone bound or in insolation for very long periods is unhealthy.


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RE: Insane situation? - 1/21/2009 6:06:25 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Another thread mentions leaving a sub chained in a basement. Said sub has no will, rights and cannot make decisions. It has been assumed that the basement has no natural light only artificial and it is assumed that said sub will be fed and watered three times a day. This means that the sub will have human contact on a daily basis and that the Dom will be able to check how she is doing at this time. The Dom has the right to make a decision on whether or not she is ok and can be left or whether she needs to be removed from this situation at any time. It would also be assumed that both parties have consented to this.

What would your personal concerns with such a situation be? If both people had given consent for such a situation and fully looked at the risks involved etc would you deem them insane for going ahead? Would you call such a situation extreme? Would you even consider such a situation possible?


It's not insane and extreme, and such a scenario is certainly possible, but I'd have to say it's somewhat counterproductive, unless it's really something both parties fetishize a great deal. Being put away in a cage overnight, at certain times of the day or being placed in it for an extended period of time as a form of punishment is one thing, but having a human being virtually live in it nearly all the time—basement or bedroom—is more a chore than a substantive advantage for the owner, at least from my perspective. It's got to be a sadistic hobby the owner really enjoys, otherwise there's no advantage and gain to be had.

Now, if you create a cubicle grid of caged naked females and have them all operate phone sex lines and cam shows all day for you, I can see the appeal.

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/21/2009 6:31:55 AM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Another thread mentions leaving a sub chained in a basement. Said sub has no will, rights and cannot make decisions. It has been assumed that the basement has no natural light only artificial and it is assumed that said sub will be fed and watered three times a day. This means that the sub will have human contact on a daily basis and that the Dom will be able to check how she is doing at this time. The Dom has the right to make a decision on whether or not she is ok and can be left or whether she needs to be removed from this situation at any time. It would also be assumed that both parties have consented to this.
 
Apologies that i have not gone into any further detail but this is all the detail i have from the previous thread and did not wish to derail / hijack that thread any further with this discussion.
 
What would your personal concerns with such a situation be?
 
If both people had given consent for such a situation and fully looked at the risks involved etc would you deem them insane for going ahead?
 
Would you call such a situation extreme?
 
Would you even consider such a situation possible?
 
 


Yup, nutty as a fruitcake! Anyone that wants to be put in that situation should be locked up in a dark cell and the key thrown away and .. oh, um..er .. well then, n/m.


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RE: Insane situation? - 1/26/2009 11:09:52 AM   
iansilver


Posts: 1
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline 		For almost any fetish or desire expressed on this site, I'm sure you can find a lot of people in the vanilla world who regard it as insane.  Chaining someone in a basement for an extended period is one of the more extreme concepts described here (for real, rather than fantasy, that is), but I firmly believe that for a small subset of the BDSM community it is not insane at all, provided that:
  • issues of physical health and safety (exercise, fire/flood, etc.) are adequately addressed
  • both the captor and captive have spent a sufficient time, examining their motives and capacity to endure this, to be sure that both can handle it

Having said that, I would emphasize that:
  • there is more physical and mental danger here than in many other edge activities, so making sure of the two points above would take a great deal of thought, planning (at least on the part of the captor), and communication prior to the captivity
  • the words "small subset" are key; I believe that the number of people for whom this would really work over the long term, and not be unhealthy, is very small
  • as with other edge activities, if you've only fantasized about it, start small and increase intensity (duration of captivity, restriction of movement, isolation, etc.) gradually
  • during the captivity, it is impossible to overestimate the importance of the captor staying aware that his captive's life depends on him

I have been keenly interested for many years in keeping girls in genuine captivity for extended periods.  I have only been able to do this a few times, both because it's hard to find people for whom it's truly appropriate, and because it is difficult to do with what I consider to be adequate safety.  The longest I've kept a girl locked in chains continuously was about four months, but for most of this period she was chained in a way that would allow her to leave the house in the event of fire.  (It was the certain humiliation of her nakedness and shackles that kept her from leaving.)  The longest I've kept a captive physically unable to escape is about two weeks; I did this several times with a slave I owned for twelve years.  During that time, I desperately wanted to extend the captivity to much longer periods, but I was never able to devote enough time to being able to do so safely.  Two weeks was the longest I could go without having to be out of the house for more than a couple of hours.

Even for absences of two hours or less, I focused on safety.  I never left the house at all during the part of the year where a furnace malfunction or power failure would have been a threat.  I ran a piece of flexible conduit outdoors from the cell where my captive was chained, so that she would have fresh air to breathe if the house began to fill with smoke.  And, although I didn't have anyone at that time whom I could depend on to share responsibility for daily care, I made sure that at least one other person was aware of the situation so that my captive could be released if something happened to me.  I don't claim that I established perfect safety, but I think I made the physical danger no greater than it would be for someone who is ill or otherwise restricted from movement, or who has taken a strong sleeping pill before retiring.

I'm absolutely sure, from talking to my captives at length after their release, that they felt their experience was something they wanted and needed.  These were people with a deep, enduring desire to experience utter helplessness and powerlessness, to be in a state of captivity as real and rigorous as possible, for more than a day or two.  Although I do admit to one of them developing something of an addiction to captivity (to the point of showing up at my door without prior arrangement and wanting to be held prisoner again), that is the only aspect of these experinces that I regarded as unhealthy for either captor or captive.

I may not be qualified to make an absolute determination of whether having these desires in the first place - captor or captive - is insane.  There are a lot of people who are quite insane and regard themselves as perfectly sane, so perhaps I am one.  But I do feel that, with the precautions and qualifications I've described, it's no more insane to act on an unusual desire than it is to have one, as long as no one is harmed.  And I think there are only two kinds of people who can know whether an individual has been harmed mentally - the individual themself, or a mental health professional.

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/26/2009 1:20:51 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

What would your personal concerns with such a situation be?
 

What about my pets, friends, family and others who will miss me and mourn not hearing from me? That is what comes to mind first - I always think that those who want these situations for prolonged periods of time must have horrible relationships with friends/family to want to inflict that on them. I just couldn't do that to my parents.

From a medical point of view, the lack of natural light would mean vitamins would have to be supplied and would the dom take the girl to the doctor on a regular basis to check on her physical health?
quote:


If both people had given consent for such a situation and fully looked at the risks involved etc would you deem them insane for going ahead?
 
Define insane. Loosely, with friends and in situations where I don't expect to be held exactly to my words and talpking about this concept overall and not specific people, I'd probably call them off their bloody rockers.

However, if I'm going to be held to my words exactly... I would say that probably a person who can't make their own decisions, has no will and doesn't care about those who (presumably) love them other than the dom isn't the most healthy of individuals - however I wouldn't make a firm judgement unless speaking about a particular person whose overall situation I am familiar with in more detail. Regardless, if it is what fulfills them and doesn't cause them to neglect minors in their care... it's their life.

quote:


Would you call such a situation extreme?
 

Yes, if it were carried on for an extended period of time. For a weekend it sounds fucking hot and something I plan on doing. For a week it still sounds hot and really only starts to get iffy for me when we are talking months and longer.
quote:


Would you even consider such a situation possible?
 

Possible? Of course it's possible. The submissive will continue to live, if one defines living by drawing breath - as will the dominant. If they thrive in that enviroment is another matter completely but yes it would be entirely possible. That doesn't make it an advisable, or unadvisable, course of action, simply a possible one.

Edited to add: Having read over the thread, I have to add that a lot of details have been left out. I was responding assuming there would be little-to-no contact with the outside world. How much contact is allowed (via phone and internet) and luxeries are in that basement does change how I would respond.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/26/2009 1:27:31 PM >

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/26/2009 1:42:36 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

would you deem them insane for going ahead?

No
quote:

  Would you call such a situation extreme?

No
quote:

  Would you even consider such a situation possible?

Yes

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/26/2009 2:58:17 PM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Yes, it's insane... because caring about nothing in life except sex and kink is insane.  The universe is a lot bigger than your clit or your dick, and having someone lock you up in a basement is no better than finding an escape at the bottom of a bottle.  Do you want to improve reality, or leave it?


I totally agree

edited because I hit the wrong button

< Message edited by MidMichCowboy -- 1/26/2009 2:59:17 PM >

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/26/2009 5:19:48 PM   
themischievous1


Posts: 151
Joined: 4/3/2005
From: San Antonio, Texas
Status: offline 		Personally, I think this is fringe and edgy. It's the kind of thing that could land a dominant in prison for a very long time, if anything happens to the slave as a result of the imprisonment in the basement. It is pretty much impossible to go to any length one desires even with the permission of a slave or submission. Even if that consent is documented, there are laws against causing physical harm to another.

For example, there are the extremely religious who deny their loved one access to a doctor because they choose to pray over said loved one instead; if the loved one should die or become gravely ill due to not receiving adequate care, those responsible could face manslaughter charges.

It isn't wise to go too far in this world of ours. I think part of the edgy draw to this kind of "play" is the fact that one is putting one's self into a dangerous place by participating as the slave and the master. The legalities of these kinds of acts stress that despite consent, if someone does something harmful to another that is disfiguring or permanent, that person can and likely will be prosecuted. The slave doesn't even have to bring charges; the district attorney can act on his or her own despite the slave's consent.

This kind of play is not a wise thing to be tampering around with, imo.

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/26/2009 6:54:44 PM   
Tachikata


Posts: 6
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I thought it was a matter of safety and mindfulness that a Dominant would never leave a submissive chained, bound, caged or cuffed, unattended.

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/26/2009 7:01:50 PM   
mummyman321


Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		The OP did not state the Dom would leave the sub at home and unattended. So lets assume the house always has someone home for safety sake. And this could be a true possibility on a large poly household. So if both parties have agreed they I do not have the right to judge them.

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RE: Insane situation? - 1/26/2009 7:07:31 PM   
came4U


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From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

would you deem them insane for going ahead?


no, why do it if the sub isn't going to go a 'lil insane'?  isn't that the whole point?

If there are luxuries like a tv, bed, chair, internet, books etc then it is no different than being a couch potato while being in the most uncomfortable chair in the house (or getting sore from sitting at the computer too long).  People do these things all the time.

quote:

Would you call such a situation extreme?


no, extreme would be bringing the inlaws to watch.

quote:

Would you even consider such a situation possible?


sure, but few men the time or energy (or income) to take a week off of work to be home every second.  If you have ever been in a jail cell it is no different, stuck in that lil box all day and night, not pretty but not much to do except think or sleep.

If you fear such a situation, don't try it.  If you won't tolerate it don't judge others' psychological status because of your own fears.  3 meals a day that I wouldn't have to cook? wow, would be like having restraunt service for a week. nice.



< Message edited by came4U -- 1/26/2009 7:08:28 PM >

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