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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 5:11:02 AM

MissMorrigan

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My sincere thanks to you, ForAlways, for replying. Knowing my friend the way I do, I can see why it is she blames herself and feels as if she failed. I can also see in some way why it is he deviated from their agreement. In his mind's eye she'd agreed to the act itself and location of the cutting was immaterial to him. Her reaction likely scared the pair of them and I doubt he knew how to handle the situation, hence why there was so little to no aftercare, it's a possibility but only guesswork on my part.

He's behaved very foolishly and now that I've had the night to get over my initial kneejerk anger (it's not going to help my friend any by having me tell her everything he did wrong, or should have done in that situ) and worded my initial OP in a way that it would hopefully resonate in someone who had experienced something similar, worked through it and healed to be able to move forward.

I have found a kink-aware/friendly therapist that's quite reasonable regarding fees, so will pass along that information when I see my friend in person and hope they will act on it.

Thank you again for speaking out, I can understand how loving someone could lead to giving them further opportunities which then impacts negatively - it's also a part of conditioning. I'm glad you were able to distance yourself from that person. May I ask how you have been since? I understand if you would prefer not to say via this thread.

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Post #: 41

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 5:15:53 AM

MissMorrigan

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CatdeMedici, someone pointed out that I may have misconstrued your comment, if that is the case, I sincerely apologise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici
I would not, that behavior IMHO is arrogant, domineering and unacceptable.

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Post #: 42

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 5:21:11 AM

MissMorrigan

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It wouldn't help to know her background and I am not able to provide further details regarding what's occurred in any case. I think what has manifested as shame in her is a result of being unable to endure what he wanted to experience with her. I think the anger part has yet to hit her, Holly. Once her emotions have settled down a little and she's able to put what's happened into perspective it'll likely hit her then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
Personally, i would be madder than hell!!!

I cannot help but wonder about her background. I realize she had/has trust issues, but what is causing the level of shame she is feeling?
Is it possible the shame is a smoke screen for the anger that she is not allowing herself to feel?

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Post #: 43

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 5:22:51 AM

FullfigRIMAAM1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan
You have no idea what you're talking about. People aren't robots, we're individuals that deal with situations according to our life's experiences.

Maybe I'm missing something here but I thought CatdeMedici's response was calling the dom's behavior "arrogant, domineering, and unacceptable." She's hardly wrong as far as I can tell. But correct me if I'm reading it wrong.

I agree on Cat's assessment of said dom, and don't understand the response.
I would suggest further that your friend has perhaps found exactly what she feared most=someone she cannot trust. M

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Post #: 44

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 5:38:00 AM

MissMorrigan

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I likely misunderstood Cat's post and if I have, I will apologise to them. When I read it I assumed they were referring to the reaction of running off and as a result, were stating that that kind of behaviour was domineering and unacceptable as I have seen submissives (it's not exclusive to submissives, however) use a similar behaviour as a form of manipulation.

Edited to add that last night I had only just found out about my friend, so I was 'reacting' defensively - not a good thing to do, I agree.

< Message edited by MissMorrigan -- 1/17/2009 5:44:59 AM >

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A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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Post #: 45

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:01:00 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

It wouldn't help to know her background and I am not able to provide further details regarding what's occurred in any case. I think what has manifested as shame in her is a result of being unable to endure what he wanted to experience with her. I think the anger part has yet to hit her, Holly. Once her emotions have settled down a little and she's able to put what's happened into perspective it'll likely hit her then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
Personally, i would be madder than hell!!!

I cannot help but wonder about her background. I realize she had/has trust issues, but what is causing the level of shame she is feeling?
Is it possible the shame is a smoke screen for the anger that she is not allowing herself to feel?

i was not asking you to disclose her background here. My feeling, if she has been the victim of abuse in the past she might not permit herself to feel anger and turn her negative feelings to shame, guilt and depression. IF this is the case, time will probably not help too much, other than allow her to repress the emotions.

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Post #: 46

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:08:41 AM

MissMorrigan

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No, no, I know that you weren't asking me to disclose details, I was just saying that I could not provide details of her background to shed light on why she has a trust issue.

I think sadly that she will, in time, repress her emotions. I hope I'm wrong.

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A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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Post #: 47

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:10:07 AM

CatdeMedici

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

You have no idea what you're talking about. People aren't robots, we're individuals that deal with situations according to our life's experiences. I haven't described a scene where a submissive is reacting poorly because they didn't like something their dominant has done and is therefore using their absence as a punishment. I have described a person with profound trust issues whose trust has been abused and they do not know how to process their emotions into a more tangible form at present in order that they CAN bring themselves to discuss it openly - emotionally, they have regressed to an almost childlike status, blaming themselves for this and feeling as if they aren't fit to be around their dominant. Perhaps you can approach every situation you encounter in such a methodical manner - my experience is that when a person is like that they tend to get hit the hardest when really challenged in life.

and you feel this is acceptable Dominant behavior and allowable--why?

Lets' try a real life scenario-abuse for dummies if you will---a woman has the right to her body's privacy--some creep rapes her--she---has regressed to an almost childlike status, blaming themselves for this and feeling as if they aren't fit to be around their...and so we will just go back and talk them out of the fact that they were traumatized.

quote:

Perhaps you can approach every situation you encounter in such a methodical manner - my experience is that when a person is like that they tend to get hit the hardest when really challenged in life

You're damn right I do, overt disrespect for limits of that nature is IMHO arrogance and abuse and you can bet your sweet bippy I'd send the mf packing and he would be damn lucky I didnt press charges!

quote:

my experience is that when a person is like that they tend to get hit the hardest when really challenged in life

where is the delineation for real life? when she is scarred? Oh but she is isn't she--now.

< Message edited by CatdeMedici -- 1/17/2009 6:18:24 AM >

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Post #: 48

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:10:43 AM

Maya2001

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It sounds like your friend is very passive natured... therefore it is not in her nature to start confrontations... she has likely learned to deal with asses and bullies by turning the other cheek and walking away..rather than get into a confrontation which has the potential to escalate into a more ugly situation .....plus her talking to him is not going to solve the issue or help the situation at hand

the reason she is most likely beating herself up is because she allowed herself to believe in him ..she allowed him to convince her to let down the walls she put up for her own safety........her upset comes not from his actions... but by the fact she is horrified that she misread him and allowed herself to be put into the victim role again ... and that has shaken her confidence in herself... leaving her questioning her own ability to judge who is safe and who isn't. .... someone who was a victim of repeated abuse in the past... develops a sense of pride and self worth when they learn how not to make themselves in to the victim role by learning to read others and by making safe judgments calls...... but this incident has rocked her foundation and is leaving her afraid that she is unable to read people to know who is honest/safe and who isn't..and in her mind if she can't trust herself she leaves herself vulnerable to being victimized and that is what is scaring the hell out of her.

< Message edited by Maya2001 -- 1/17/2009 6:14:20 AM >

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Post #: 49

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:31:42 AM

MissMorrigan

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Retract your claws, Cat. I said this in a later post: I likely misunderstood Cat's post and if I have, I will apologise to them. When I read it I assumed they were referring to the reaction of running off and as a result, were stating that that kind of behaviour was domineering and unacceptable as I have seen submissives (it's not exclusive to submissives, however) use a similar behaviour as a form of manipulation.

Edited to add that last night I had only just found out about my friend, so I was 'reacting' defensively - not a good thing to do, I agree.

I would like to further add that given your reply to me, clearly I had misconstrued your comment and for that I sincerely apologise. The error was mine. Nowhere is an abuse on a person acceptable especially when the emotional scarring will have endure long after the physical ones have healed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan
and you feel this is acceptable Dominant behavior and allowable--why?

Lets' try a real life scenario-abuse for dummies if you will---a woman has the right to her body's privacy--some creep rapes her--she---has regressed to an almost childlike status, blaming themselves for this and feeling as if they aren't fit to be around their...and so we will just go back and talk them out of the fact that they were traumatized.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 50

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:35:19 AM

ForAlways

Posts: 72
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Thank you again for speaking out, I can understand how loving someone could lead to giving them further opportunities which then impacts negatively - it's also a part of conditioning. I'm glad you were able to distance yourself from that person. May I ask how you have been since? I understand if you would prefer not to say via this thread.

Oh I have no qualms about replying here, there or anywhere *wink*.

It's been hard, to be honest. The level of trust I put into my former dominant was more than I've handed to anyone prior. I felt safe, comfortable and truly enjoyed what we had. So that initial breaking of trust did shock me. So much so that I blamed myself for failing him. Initially, it never occurred to me that the fault was in his disregard of the limits and activities discussed and agreed upon.

The second time the trust was broken, it absolutely scared the hell out of me and I found myself no longer enjoying our time together, any of it, the play OR the "vanilla" portion. We had years invested and he pushed me past what I could tolerate. I gave him every opportunity, he chose his way or the highway, so, I left.

I'm in counseling for this as we speak. My self-esteem and self-worth are slowly coming back and I don't want his inability to be a responsible dominant ruin my love of this lifestyle. I'm hoping your friend can also put the incident past her. I do not know her dominant and whether he would deserve a second chance but I would hope he just had an error in judgment, we are all human and do make mistakes *nod* but right now, she needs to worry about herself first and her dominant second.

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Post #: 51

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:44:47 AM

MissMorrigan

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It's so bizarre that the more we think we think we know a person, the little we actually do. I had/have always thought of my friend as assertive, but the more I think of certain actions/subtle nuances that I never consciously picked up on before which do suggest an underlying passivity. It explains why her priority was to get to the safety of her home (her safe sanctuary) and why she's distanced herself from the entire experience.

Thank you for the thought-provoking post, Maya, it's much appreciated.

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The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 52

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:45:34 AM

CatdeMedici

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Claws retracted, hugs and coffee offered.

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I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

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(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 53

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:47:40 AM

colouredin

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One of my first experiances in all this stuff was that i was strangled, I had a complete panic attack it was beyond anything that we had discussed and I was at the time cuffed and so unable to do anything. Like your friend I thought my response was wrong, I felt terrible. I didnt do anything really I didnt speak to the Dominant I just walked away from it all.

In the instance that the OP discusses I dont think i could ever get the trust back, thats a pretty explicit deviation from the pre-agreed rules and how can you ever ever ever get back from that. For this womans safty she should not be with this guy any more. Its as simple as that really.

The biggest issue is going to be not letting this event affect her response to people in the future. To me she did all she could prior to the scene in terms of limits etc. I think its just a case of really bad luck on being with that particular guy. I dont know if there were other clues throughout the relationship that she can draw on to learn from.

Shes going to have dramatically knocked confidence and that will take time to heal. I think she is lucky to have someone to help her through it. i wish I could give better advice.

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Post #: 54

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 6:48:34 AM

MissMorrigan

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It was my fault hon, the coffee's on me x

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A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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Post #: 55

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 7:00:01 AM

MissMorrigan

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Coloured, I really do feel for you, you must have been terrified. Have you noticed how, when something bad has occured and people are asked if they're 'alright', quite often they'll reply with, "I'm fine." In reality, they're far from fine. Almost as if they're conditioned to take it on the chin/suck it up. Is that something associated solely with women, do we tend to internalise more?

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A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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Post #: 56

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 8:46:23 AM

Celene

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

It was my fault hon, the coffee's on me x

Me like happy Cats. Meow.... purrrr

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Post #: 57

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 9:05:20 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

How does a person process so many emotions when something of this nature has such a dramatic effect?

Everyone is different on how they are going to handle such a situation. There is no One Right way to do it and sometimes the worse way is trying to get someone to do it your way!

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Post #: 58

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/17/2009 9:16:16 AM

lateralist1

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Women are sometimes trained to put up and shut up. I've been doing it for years.
Comes a time when we have to start to fight back or at least stand our ground against the men who think they can get away with anything.
Unfortunately some subs associate aggressive or assertive behaviour with dominant behaviour which can give dominants leave to abuse. 'I'm being a good domiant because Im pushing limits' leads to this kind of disaster. Ok some submissives want to be pushed some want to be led. As far as \I am concerned if a sub of mine wants pushing in a particular way then he will need to communicate that to me and I will see if I feel it is in his best interests.
Maybe it really was just a case of poor listening skills on the part of the dominant.
However the damage has been done and the best thing your friend can do is talk about it. I don't believe that people necessarily need to talk to a therapist. In fact I think often it takes so much time to trust a therapist that it creates more problems than it solves. A good friend who understands the BDSM scene can be much better. I hope your friend is able to talk to someone. I truly believe that she needs to.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 59

RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 2:32:16 AM

MissMorrigan

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You're a very brave lady. It's heartening to read that you are, in conjunction with a therapist, working at regaining your self esteem.

Could it have been that you didn't want to believe that he had a disregard for you in his pursuit to further his own needs? In my teens (and my first D/s relationship) I was besotted with a guy that pushed me constantly, I didn't understand D/s, much less S & M and he was eleven years older than me. Despite the abuse and the frequent break-ups, I had convinced myself that he did care or he wouldn't keep pursuing the relationship - and sadly, that allowed me to retain some delusional sense of self worth. It was my very first relationship and I had no sense of what was acceptable/unacceptable in terms of behaviour. I spent a lot of time researching such behaviours, understanding my own actions and eventually saw the relationship for what it was.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ForAlwaysOh I have no qualms about replying here, there or anywhere *wink*.

It's been hard, to be honest. The level of trust I put into my former dominant was more than I've handed to anyone prior. I felt safe, comfortable and truly enjoyed what we had. So that initial breaking of trust did shock me. So much so that I blamed myself for failing him. Initially, it never occurred to me that the fault was in his disregard of the limits and activities discussed and agreed upon.

The second time the trust was broken, it absolutely scared the hell out of me and I found myself no longer enjoying our time together, any of it, the play OR the "vanilla" portion. We had years invested and he pushed me past what I could tolerate. I gave him every opportunity, he chose his way or the highway, so, I left.

I'm in counseling for this as we speak. My self-esteem and self-worth are slowly coming back and I don't want his inability to be a responsible dominant ruin my love of this lifestyle. I'm hoping your friend can also put the incident past her. I do not know her dominant and whether he would deserve a second chance but I would hope he just had an error in judgment, we are all human and do make mistakes *nod* but right now, she needs to worry about herself first and her dominant second.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to ForAlways)

Post #: 60

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