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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 2:46:00 AM   
Tripster


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline 		he or she would be feeling some pain when i was done with he or she

(in reply to MissMorrigan)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 3:17:19 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Coloured, I really do feel for you, you must have been terrified. Have you noticed how, when something bad has occured and people are asked if they're 'alright', quite often they'll reply with, "I'm fine." In reality, they're far from fine. Almost as if they're conditioned to take it on the chin/suck it up. Is that something associated solely with women, do we tend to internalise more?




I know what you mean, I have before taken the piss when asked that question, the thing is often I dont think people really want the answer they do want you to just say you are fine. Im not sure if its a universal female thing I know that I do. If I do express my feelings they are always tempered to make them more socially acceptable. I think thats pretty common too.

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(in reply to MissMorrigan)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 5:16:15 AM   
manaclesvelvet


Posts: 11
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline 		It is your Doms job to honor you; you are the one in control, and he broke your trust.  That must have been heartbreaking for you, sweetie, and you need to talk to him about how he dishonored you by not honoring your limits.  You deserve respect, just as much as a Dom does.  I know you love him, but this is serious when it comes to cutting/hurting you.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 5:46:17 AM   
MsFlutter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

There are so many red flags in your friend's situation of what the so-called jerk of a Dominant did and didn't do, I can't count 'em all. Others have noted them.....


I really liked your response, Master Lark. Organized, calm, thoughtful and authentic. Impressive !
 


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(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 8:24:17 AM   
ForAlways


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Could it have been that you didn't want to believe that he had a disregard for you in his pursuit to further his own needs?


This is 100% correct.  I was so in love with the man both on a Vanilla and D/s level that I didn't want to believe I meant so little to him.  I learned a hard lesson but, still, I learned it. *nod*


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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 10:43:02 AM   
Jeptha


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MasterLark, your post concerns dealing with what happened, and you mention some interesting ideas. But I'm not sure "learning to trust" will be a problem going forward for this person as much as learning how to enforce a boundary might be. I'm not sure that this is an experience that this person will learn from as much as it is a pattern that is continually reinforced - maybe even by those who mean well.

The original post reminds me of someone I know who is extremely conflict avoidant.

My mom worked on a psyche ward for 17 years, part of that time with committed alcoholics.
She once remarked to me that alcoholics can't stand criticism of any kind.

I think it's easier for my friend to internalize or disregard abuse than to face conflict.
Which might be similar to the OP's friend.

And I wonder if part of the answer might be in teaching them how to take criticism without freaking out.

How one does that, though, I'm not so sure.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 1/18/2009 10:44:17 AM >

(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 11:29:40 AM   
pixidustpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

Personally, i would be madder than hell!!!

I cannot help but wonder about her background. I realize she had/has trust issues, but what is causing the level of shame she is feeling?
Is it possible the shame is a smoke screen for the anger that she is not allowing herself to feel?



possibly.  i can relate too closely to the situation so.....

anger that you found yourself in the SAME situation again.  shame that you're so stupid to trust again even though you know that all (fill in the blank here with any rough description of the person who broke the trust) are not to be trusted and you let yourself get sucked in again.  self-loathing that you again opened up and this was how you were repaid.

it can set the relationship back to the point that there is no fixing it.  i ran into this with my first dominant....and while i understood after the fact that he was ill at the time (oxygen deprivation due to congestive heart failure, and he went into the hospital 2 days later), my trust in him was broken to the point that i never again allowed him to dominante me in anything more than a caregiver's role.  i still loved him, but i could not trust him and our relationship was *never* the same.  (i continued to care for him for another year and a half, till he passed away.)

kitten

(in reply to sirsholly)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 2:01:02 PM   
MasterLark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

There are so many red flags in your friend's situation of what the so-called jerk of a Dominant did and didn't do, I can't count 'em all. Others have noted them.....


I really liked your response, Master Lark. Organized, calm, thoughtful and authentic. Impressive !
 



Thank you. That is a high compliment, thank you.

(in reply to MsFlutter)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 2:07:19 PM   
MasterLark


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Joined: 5/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha


MasterLark, your post concerns dealing with what happened, and you mention some interesting ideas. But I'm not sure "learning to trust" will be a problem going forward for this person as much as learning how to enforce a boundary might be. I'm not sure that this is an experience that this person will learn from as much as it is a pattern that is continually reinforced - maybe even by those who mean well.

The original post reminds me of someone I know who is extremely conflict avoidant.

My mom worked on a psyche ward for 17 years, part of that time with committed alcoholics.
She once remarked to me that alcoholics can't stand criticism of any kind.

I think it's easier for my friend to internalize or disregard abuse than to face conflict.
Which might be similar to the OP's friend.

And I wonder if part of the answer might be in teaching them how to take criticism without freaking out.

How one does that, though, I'm not so sure.


Jeptha, good nuanced points you make. Yes, not just about trust in general but precisely about respecting boundaries, especially hard limits. And I used to work in counseling drug and alcohol abuse clients and in running a "rap group" of prisoners, so your point about learning how to take criticism without freaking out -- either by expressing violence or by feeling crushed -- is pertinent. We don't know this friend's history and how she reached this point in her life, but the reaction does suggest that both your points fit. There are ways to learn how to take criticism and cope with it in a healthy way; it takes time and the right teacher.

(in reply to Jeptha)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 2:14:38 PM   
MasterLark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
I realize she had/has trust issues, but what is causing the level of shame she is feeling?
Is it possible the shame is a smoke screen for the anger that she is not allowing herself to feel?




Shame usually isn't about repressing anger; it is usually about hating yourself and believing you are justified in doing so. Shame is often about a lie you believe about yourself, which is corrosive; the lie must be faced and when faced, it's power over you usually evaporates. When it evaporates, some anger may emerge, but more often it is elation.

(in reply to sirsholly)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 2:16:13 PM   
Lee4U2tie


Posts: 23
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		it could just be me, but trust is IMMENSELY important in a Dom/sub relationship.  When the trust is broken...well it's up to the sub then to decide...'do I really think I can actually go back to this person when I don't know what they might do to me even after the rules are set for play?'  I myself couldn't go back.  It would be devastating to me to know that my Dom had just done something like that to me...broken trust, not even given much care afterward...I'd say, time to look for a new Dom.  But of course there will always be that part of a sub's mind that says....'will it happen again with this new person?'  Making it that much harder for a sub to give full trust to another person again.  I think I might have punched the Dom in the balls/hernia truthfully.  But then that's just me.

(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/18/2009 5:29:45 PM   
Heulwen


Posts: 19
Joined: 11/18/2008
Status: offline 		Sounds like your friend needs a level of counseling you're not going to be able to provide.  IMO the best service you can do is encourage her into kink-friendly counseling.

As described, Dom's behavior is not acceptable of course, but it is so hard to know what really happened so far removed, I don't feel qualified to comment definitively.

(in reply to Lee4U2tie)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/19/2009 1:20:03 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Joined: 1/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
I realize she had/has trust issues, but what is causing the level of shame she is feeling?
Is it possible the shame is a smoke screen for the anger that she is not allowing herself to feel?

Shame usually isn't about repressing anger; it is usually about hating yourself and believing you are justified in doing so. Shame is often about a lie you believe about yourself, which is corrosive; the lie must be faced and when faced, it's power over you usually evaporates. When it evaporates, some anger may emerge, but more often it is elation.


And sadly, too frequently, those lies become ingrained to the point they are part of a person's character especially when developed during their formative years. Thank you for your insights.

_____________________________

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(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/19/2009 1:35:04 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Huelwen, thank you for replying. In truth, I know that I cannot help my friend on the level they need, all I can do is point her in what I believe to be the right direction (kink-friendly counselling) and offer non-judgemental/non blame allocating support.

I wasn't able to revisit this thread, other than yesterday very briefly, and want to thank everyone who has posted, especially Maya, Jeptha, MasterLark and ForAlways, for sharing and providing invaluable insights.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to Heulwen)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/19/2009 6:51:46 AM   
sparkyRBF


Posts: 157
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline 		I would like to start by saying that i'm not a therapist, i've never counseled anyone professionally, i think i've only been to my school counselor once or twice and have learned just to handle things on my own. 

With that being said, i have had my trust broken, violently, horribly, terribly, sometimes intentionally.  When these situations have happened i stepped back and analized what happened, my actions, their actions, what exactly was the problem with the situation.  If i'm not so close to it, it's easier to see a clearer picture and i feel more confident not to repeat the same mistake if i understand the cause. 

As a slave to Master, something i'm proud of is that i am able to let him be him.. anything he wants to do or try i'm happy to accomidate him, but what is important to know is that Master and i have the same limits.  He doesn't like cutting, blood, animals, etc.  So i know those things won't be asked of me.  This may be important for her to realize, to see that if cutting is this guys turn on and it's her biggest fear, it may not be a good fit for them.  She will feel failure for not being able to let him be him.

In your post it said that after alot of reassurance she agreed to procede with this.   That line leads me to believe that trust wasn't really there.  Something has happened before that she would not trust this guy at his word.  

I know when Master and i first started out, when we would try something new i'd get all tense and scared of the pain instead of keeping an open mind and processing the sensation.  When i'd get in that mode, my mind would never let me enjoy it and would send me into a panic attack, the restraints and inability to get away would only increase my panic and make me think it was much worse than it was.  I think of your friend and the panic she must have felt when she realized she had lost complete control of the situation.  When he didn't go for where he said and started moving to where he didn't say. The rise in panic, the loss of control i'm sure esculated the situation and made it even worse in her own mind. 
I don't know if it would help your friend or not, but i know it has helped me to reevaluate exactly what happened and try to seperate the sensation from the situation. 
Another thought, and of course we don't know this Dom or his intentions, but it sounds to me like he cared about himself and his own needs before hers.  And if she decides to continue this relationship with him without discussing and making him own the harm he did to her, he may think that gives him the green light to continue this behavior.   That she is willing to just "shut up and take it". 

I know one thing in helping friends with bad situations.  Feeling sorry for them doesn't help.  Anger doesn't help.  Calm, assertive, unconditional understanding seems to help the most. 

best of luck to you and your friend

sparkyRBF

(in reply to MissMorrigan)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/19/2009 11:33:49 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark
... I used to work in counseling drug and alcohol abuse clients and in running a "rap group" of prisoners, so your point about learning how to take criticism without freaking out -- either by expressing violence or by feeling crushed -- is pertinent. We don't know this friend's history and how she reached this point in her life, but the reaction does suggest that both your points fit. There are ways to learn how to take criticism and cope with it in a healthy way; it takes time and the right teacher.
I am interjecting things I've observed in my friend into the situation with the OP's friend, because I wonder if there could be a relevant correlation there.
Thanks for giving the idea some consideration.

For my own friend, I think avoiding conflict is its own reward.

She finds it more comfortable and preferable to put up with abuse and crossed boundaries than to face conflict and negative criticism.

I saw some of that in MissMorrigan's friend's reaction, too.
And I was wondering what that is all about.

Contrast that reaction to the people who wrote that they would hash it out with the guy, in no uncertain terms, very clearly and immediately.

Perhaps if we were all sitting around on a circle of folding chairs and my friend could hear those kinds of reactions she would see that it's ok to stand up for yourself, have boundaries, etc., because that behavior would be modeled for her.

But I also wonder about the possibility of finding negative criticism to be so crushing as a key underlying issue.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 1/19/2009 11:37:16 AM >

(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/19/2009 12:16:22 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I can't say that I disagree with what anjelika had to say...this was a negotiated scene with the main intent of the scene to push at one of her limits, he deviated from that scene and that premise.  At that point, it became assault.

Sooner or later...and personally, I think sooner is best... she is going to have to face him down and confront him about what happened and why he broke trust by deviating from what had been agreed to.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)
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RE: When Trust Is Broken - 1/19/2009 3:05:22 PM   
ReinaPop


Posts: 11
Joined: 1/7/2009
Status: offline 		Sometimes experiences are too intense to come up with words. And this seems to be your friend's case. I was through sth similar, when I was very young, and not into the style, yet.Though I could not face the man who betrayed my trust, I knew sth was very wrong, and I never agreed to meet him again. I don't think "talking" is as important as "acting" in a case like this, because probably the alleged Master, will try to manipulate her into believing that it was in her best interest... Be there for her, and try to get her to stay away from him.
Regards,
Reina

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 78
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