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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 1:50:59 PM

YourhandMyAss

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I personally wouldn't choose a partner who wanted things I refused to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: panthersub

My Dom and i were talking earlier today about being forced to do things, mainly kissing, and whether or not a sub should have a choice to be forced to do something that they don't want to, or taking a punishment instead. Example: Say if a submissive does not like to kiss, do you think the Dom should force her to kiss, or give her a a punishment. Not a harsh punishment, but something to remind her that she needs to listen to her Dom?

(in reply to panthersub)

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 2:25:57 PM

oceanwynds

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I do not think I could comprehend if Sir was going to give me a choice to do something. Personally, I dont even want that type of power. Sir knows my hard limits, and i trust that he honors me enough to not be giving me choices. Of course their is always the one choice and that is me saying goodbye.

p.s
it honors me for Sir to use me like a hoe when he desires.

(in reply to IvyMorgan)

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Post #: 42

RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 2:42:16 PM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

...I just don't have the HOE mentality...

just curious, but could you please explain "the HOE mentality" that you speak of with such disdain?

I believe it's when a submissive feels they are a long-handled gardening implement

. FYI, carmeldelight, it's HO, not HOE..........luci, Master's ho (or hoe, if He desires

)

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Post #: 43

RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 4:32:09 PM

Catgirl711

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

...I just don't have the HOE mentality...

just curious, but could you please explain "the HOE mentality" that you speak of with such disdain?

Yes, I'm curious myself. From the two instances that she used it, it implies that those of us who are willing to submit completely to another have the mentality of a garden tool.

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Post #: 44

RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 5:42:26 PM

OrionTheWolf

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This is a bad idea. It places power, where there should not be any. There is only one choice, and that is to obey. Someone will say there is another, which is leave, but that is not a choice within an inter-personal relationship, that is a choice to leave one. It all depends upon the dynamics by which the relationship is founded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: panthersub

My Dom and i were talking earlier today about being forced to do things, mainly kissing, and whether or not a sub should have a choice to be forced to do something that they don't want to, or taking a punishment instead. Example: Say if a submissive does not like to kiss, do you think the Dom should force her to kiss, or give her a a punishment. Not a harsh punishment, but something to remind her that she needs to listen to her Dom?

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 6:14:46 PM

YourhandMyAss

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I am glad that personally, in my relationship, it's a perfectly acceptible reason to opt out. I don't buy into the whole do it just cause I say so and it's what I want thing, never have, and I would never be happy in a relationship that was centered on that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

but *don't like* just isn't a good enough reason to opt out.

agirl

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Post #: 46

RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 6:16:58 PM

YourhandMyAss

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Uh no, if you're the one "allowing him" to do things, You're calling the shots, Not the dom. There for you're in control and not the dom.

Course nothing wrong with it, but call it what it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carmeldelight

My dom knows that, I do not have a “Hoe Mentality.” He knows what I will accept and what I will not accept. My Don is the one in charged of the relationship (which I allow him to feel), if you ask for a request and I feel it is not me, the request is not done.

< Message edited by YourhandMyAss -- 1/20/2009 6:17:38 PM >

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 6:24:02 PM

DesFIP

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The op says that forcing this will cause her to freak out. Her nontherapist dom has decided that forcing her will not in fact cause a panic attack but cure the phobia. How he pulled this out of his ass he hasn't explained.

I think he's an idiot. Causing a panic attack is causing harm to her, the total opposite of protecting the property. She says that she can't do this, she needs to protect herself from him and will accept any number of punishments rather than be forced into a dangerous mental state.

She needs to hard limit this and seriously reconsider why she is in a relationship with someone who thinks causing mental/emotional damage is a good thing. If she doesn't have a therapist, she needs one. If she does have one, he needs to meet with the therapist and find out what is safe for the op and what isn't.

This isn't about choosing between force and punishment, it's about well being versus causing harm.

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/20/2009 10:21:37 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings LaTigresse,

Damn but sometimes I believe I am looking into a mirror, except the opposite gender, when you write most things. Many owners, potential Doms or what have you, could really learn from this. There is much in being able to push your property beyond their limits, but not have a goal that is attainable.

To comment on what someone else said about "my way or the highway", that is giving twice as many choices as there should be. It should read "There is only my way, and there is no highway." If you are dealing with a deep IE relationship, D/s, M/s or whatever, then as the one in charge I believe the options should be limited to success.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I adore this explanation.

As someone else said......there is no maybe. If I say it, it had better be done. However, it is also my responsibility to know whether or not she really can do it. Why set someone up to fail regardless of what the issue is?

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/21/2009 4:49:16 AM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The op says that forcing this will cause her to freak out. Her nontherapist dom has decided that forcing her will not in fact cause a panic attack but cure the phobia. How he pulled this out of his ass he hasn't explained.

I think he's an idiot. Causing a panic attack is causing harm to her, the total opposite of protecting the property. She says that she can't do this, she needs to protect herself from him and will accept any number of punishments rather than be forced into a dangerous mental state.

She needs to hard limit this and seriously reconsider why she is in a relationship with someone who thinks causing mental/emotional damage is a good thing. If she doesn't have a therapist, she needs one. If she does have one, he needs to meet with the therapist and find out what is safe for the op and what isn't.

This isn't about choosing between force and punishment, it's about well being versus causing harm.

I reread the thread three times and didn't see this at all - nothing about freaking out, nothing about panic attacks or phobias. She used kissing as an example of something she didn't like, and wondered if spanking would help her remember to obey. I honestly missed anything about emotional damage being done here or why she might need therapy for not liking kissing. We all have to do things we don't like from time to time (going to work comes to mind!) - that doesn't mean it's harmful. It could just mean it's a harmless sacrifice to make someone else happy.

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/21/2009 5:30:17 AM

MilkMan

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The "hoe" mentality refers to a hooker and her pimp. Typically whatever the pimp says goes. The relationship is both different and the same. On one hand the pimp is ruler of her world and she is convinced she loves him. On the other hand the pimp has no love for his hoe. She just makes money for him. The bottom like as I see it is this: The essence of all relationships is communication. When it fails the relationship will follow. If you have the type of relationship where it is always do as I say then you have given up your will and vote to your Dom/me or Master. And if that is what gets you where you want to be so be it. If, however, you are an out spoken person and just "taking it" isn't what you do then it should have been spoken of in the beginning of your relationship.

One last thing: I am by no means calling subs/slaves hoes.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/21/2009 5:57:15 AM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

I am glad that personally, in my relationship, it's a perfectly acceptible reason to opt out. I don't buy into the whole do it just cause I say so and it's what I want thing, never have, and I would never be happy in a relationship that was centered on that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

but *don't like* just isn't a good enough reason to opt out.

agirl

What I actually said was...

Now, he isn't particularly interested in making me do things that I really don't like much of the time unless he's making a point but *don't like* just isn't a good enough reason to opt out.

The relationship isn't centred on it. It's centred on mutual respect and understanding.

agirl

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/21/2009 7:06:47 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MilkMan

The "hoe" mentality refers to a hooker and her pimp. Typically whatever the pimp says goes. The relationship is both different and the same. On one hand the pimp is ruler of her world and she is convinced she loves him. On the other hand the pimp has no love for his hoe. She just makes money for him. The bottom like as I see it is this: The essence of all relationships is communication. When it fails the relationship will follow. If you have the type of relationship where it is always do as I say then you have given up your will and vote to your Dom/me or Master. And if that is what gets you where you want to be so be it. If, however, you are an out spoken person and just "taking it" isn't what you do then it should have been spoken of in the beginning of your relationship.

One last thing: I am by no means calling subs/slaves hoes.

MilkMan,

thanks for the explanation.

(in reply to MilkMan)

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Post #: 53

RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/21/2009 9:13:43 AM

MasterTslave

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uuummm...ok? I would not think that a sub/slave would ever not want to kiss her Dom/Master (or any other physical thing for that matter)....but I think that if it is your view to want to punish for something like a kiss...than it sounds more like mild "funishment"...Master T like to inflict pain on me (and I like to get it)...but it is not because I have done wrong...it is because he feels like he wants to flogg me (or whatever the moment brings). Masters/Doms don't like to have to correct their slaves, it is a failure on their part.

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/21/2009 8:15:53 PM

panthersub

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i have responded to others and i do mention having an attack of sorts when being forced to kiss. i want to say that it's on the second page in response to another post. Hope this helps you a bit more.

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Post #: 55

RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/21/2009 8:18:51 PM

panthersub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The op says that forcing this will cause her to freak out. Her nontherapist dom has decided that forcing her will not in fact cause a panic attack but cure the phobia. How he pulled this out of his ass he hasn't explained.

I think he's an idiot. Causing a panic attack is causing harm to her, the total opposite of protecting the property. She says that she can't do this, she needs to protect herself from him and will accept any number of punishments rather than be forced into a dangerous mental state.

She needs to hard limit this and seriously reconsider why she is in a relationship with someone who thinks causing mental/emotional damage is a good thing. If she doesn't have a therapist, she needs one. If she does have one, he needs to meet with the therapist and find out what is safe for the op and what isn't.

This isn't about choosing between force and punishment, it's about well being versus causing harm.

Thank you DesFIP, i appreciate your giving me an explanation about what could be going on. i had a therapist, and may think about going back to him, as i never thought that that could be an option. My Dom and mine relationship is a great one overall, i really can't complain at all about it. He knows why i don't like kissing, as i've explained it to him before, but i'm still in this conundrum.

(in reply to DesFIP)

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/21/2009 11:19:21 PM

YourhandMyAss

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I don't want to kiss Daddy, more than a peck on the lips, and there's other pysical things I don't want to do and have and would again refuse to do.

Course I am his baby girl not his submissive so I don't exactly fit in with the submissive or slave part of that statement, but yeah.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterTslave

uuummm...ok? I would not think that a sub/slave would ever not want to kiss her Dom/Master (or any other physical thing for that matter).....

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/22/2009 3:24:13 PM

graceadieu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panthersub

We both know why i have an aversion to it, but he thinks that if he forces me to kiss him, then it will be better down the road. i say the opposite is true. But anyways, i would rather, personally, take a punishment than be forced to do something that he knows i will freak out over. i know it probably sounds really inpractical.

If this is something you genuinely can't do, even if you want to please and even with the threat of punishment.... he should respect that. Because I can't imagine forcing you is going to do anything but make it worse.

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Post #: 58

RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/22/2009 4:52:16 PM

WalterRego

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So...going back to the original question, what if a Master or Mistress wants a sub to do something that they can do, but they really don't like to, or really don't think they would like to do, or don't want to do right then. And the sub is not yet at the point where they will do something or obey simply to please the Dominant. Say they are still in training or learning to be a better sub and still have issues.

Might there possibly some benefit to be obtained by offering an alternative action or"punishment"? I have wondered about this from time to time. Thinking, that giving a submissive an alternative (possibly in increasing in distastefulness or humiliation or pain or other fill in you own discouragement each time the act is refused) might help the sub to gauge just how much they really don't want to do the original thing and at some level realize that maybe it isn't that bad after all, and since it is important to the Dominant, they will decide to do the original thing rather than face or accept the alternative?

This could be a sort of "learning" experience for the sub, and a way of weaning them or leading them to do the original thing the Dominant really wants them to learn to accept or do. So not a matter of obedience, "my way or the highway" but rather of training and leading.

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RE: Being forced vs punishment choice - 1/22/2009 5:57:10 PM

DesFIP

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Not what The Man has done when I've hit a block. Giving me an unpleasant alternative would be coercion or punishment in my view. What he does when I get stuck is stop doing that for some time, usually around six months. He can always find something else to teach me, and does. He gives me time to feel safer in talking to him about it, and he allows me to think about it and bring it back up in discussions. If just the discussion causes anxiety in me, then he knows I'm not ready and doesn't force it.

Usually somewhere in those six months I will figure out what the problem was and ask if we could try it again but without the part that caused the panic, or ask if we can try it very briefly and see what happens. If I haven't figured it out, then he tries it again and sees what my reaction is. I am always praised for being brave enough to try it, and reassured that I'm not a failure and he still loves me. Without this, if I was punished for having panic attacks, I would hard limit anything that went badly even once because I wouldn't trust him enough to try stuff.

It took three years of this before we discovered that the reason I have immediate panic attacks when tied to a pole is that he was tying my head. When he left the head for last I was still calm until then, and then the panic hit. He was willing to wait three years for me to be able to do this successfully, trying it every so often with a slight change in order to figure out the problem.

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