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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 5:56:23 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


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Status: offline 		It would be free for you kittin.    M

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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 6:28:21 AM   
housesub4you


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Status: offline 		see I know less than what I thought I knew

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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 7:06:37 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

was I just called a neocon?


Get used to it.  The if you’re not with us, you’re against us mentality is all pervasive.  The only thing that the election has changed is that the two sides have done a 180.  Those who one screamed that dissent is patriotism will now scream that it is not (an as an added bonus, they get to smear you as a racist).  Those who once screamed that it is unpatriotic to not support the administration will now declare that dissent is patriotism.  Hypocrisy is the highest political virtue.  Ask yourself this: if Hillary was a Republican, would those who are bashing you on this thread be doing so?  Or would they be screaming foul and writing tirades about the evil Republicans?  Oh well, in eight to twelve years (approximately, it could be as early as four and as late as sixteen to twenty years) the political pendulum will swing again and everyone will do another 180.   

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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 7:16:37 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

see I know less than what I thought I knew


Such is the story of my life. Thank god I had a grandmother that warned me. And taught me to keep an open mind.

The day I stop learning is the day I've died.


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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 7:26:59 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
The if you’re not with us, you’re against us mentality is all pervasive. 


Funny... this line reminds me of something... .


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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 7:34:02 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Funny... this line reminds me of something... .


It should remind you of a lot more than that... but it doesn't... that's my point.  That's the problem. 

Edited to add: that's one perdiction that came true.

Edited again to add:  HOOK, LINE, AND SINKER! 

Edited yet again to add: if it's any consolation kittinsol, cagey18 and Owner59 were also high on my list of fishes.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 1/23/2009 7:58:41 AM >

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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 9:02:29 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

I actually differ. I wish failure upon this administration just as I wished it upon the last (and the one before that). why? people aren't going to learn from their mistakes through enlightened studies. they are only going to learn through discomfort or pain.


Wow. You ARE a neocon. Destroying a country, if not the whole world, just to prove your point?

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

for instance. people may have thought that taking advantage of low interest rates to buy things beyond their means was a great idea until they were caned by an economic reality. now they've learned their lessons (unless they are bailed out, in which case their failures are subsidized and they keep on trucking). people may think that trusting the SEC to police the market is a good idea...but after they lose their fortunes, they realize maybe they should have turned to a private due diligence firm (like aksia llc, which saw madoff for what he was years before the government caught up).


Um... What makes you think that a private firm could do what even very savvy institutional investors couldn't accomplish? That's why we have the SEC, and laws to back them up. Unfortunately, in the last 30 years of "deregulation" we have allowed it to be toothless and corrupt.


quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

people are only going to learn that a horrid monetary policy, inflationary policies, socializing industries, ignoring the necessity of a production based economy, and a nation relying so heavily on debt to fund its bloated existence is a recipe for disaster after the bonds market fails and the dollar is worthless (as is US debt). once you see your wealth reduced to nothing because of the incompetence of central planners, then you'll learn your lesson. I want people to learn their lesson...so I'm overjoyed when I read about obamas plans for the economy.


The thing with "learning the lessons" is that it last at most a generation. All these lessons you want people to learn are things we already had, in the form of the Great Depression, Dust Bowl, Vietnam War, ...

Have you - and have we - learned the lessons? No. We undid antitrust laws and banking and investment regulations left and right - regulations that were put in place after our grandparents learned their lesson.

And I find it interesting that you don't mention the one thing that brought us from a surplus to the largest deficit in history: the invasion of Iraq and our outrageous amount of military spending.


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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 4:15:40 PM   
TNstepsout


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

was I just called a neocon?


Get used to it.  The if you’re not with us, you’re against us mentality is all pervasive.  The only thing that the election has changed is that the two sides have done a 180.  Those who one screamed that dissent is patriotism will now scream that it is not (an as an added bonus, they get to smear you as a racist).  Those who once screamed that it is unpatriotic to not support the administration will now declare that dissent is patriotism.  Hypocrisy is the highest political virtue.  Ask yourself this: if Hillary was a Republican, would those who are bashing you on this thread be doing so?  Or would they be screaming foul and writing tirades about the evil Republicans?  Oh well, in eight to twelve years (approximately, it could be as early as four and as late as sixteen to twenty years) the political pendulum will swing again and everyone will do another 180.   


huh? Seems to me the facts are the facts. The increase was rescinded in order to allow Hillary to take the position without violating the Constitution.  How is that an "us vs. them" issue? If there was no law broken what is there to be upset about?

The truth is that most of the people I know who are anti-Obama ARE racist. Including my own father. Does that mean all of them are? No. But if there is no real issue (such as no law broken) but people continue to be upset, then what are we to assume? I suppose it might have nothing to do with racism and more to do with sour grapes.  Pick your character flaw.

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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 4:24:31 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

No, and no.

None of that matters in the big picture to me, or the welfare of the coutry I love. Certainly not to the extent of the constitutional attrocities that our 43 president and his cohorts commited and found ways to validate with lies and half truths.


so you don't mind a few rules broken, so long as they are broken for you (maybe even at the expense of others)...but you do mind them if you disagree with them.

at least you are honest.


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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 4:25:41 PM   
variation30


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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: edgbaston



hillary was a sitting member of the senate during a period of time where there was a pay increase for the secretary of state...

so anyone who was a sitting member during that time cannot take a position until the end of their term (which is not for a while).]

variation30

[I'm reading Mises...]

Well you caught my attention. Hilary as SoS, unconstitutional! Fascinating. When you think he(Obama) took the oath twice, then, if your correct, it would matter to him. Not being American myself I'm not familiar with the minutia of your rules and regs for such matters. But what about the Presidency? Was Obama a sitting senator when the the President's pay was decided?

By the way "Mises" title or author? This reference was more obscure than the regs quoted.

ps This is my first ever post. Have I used the 'Quote' facility correctly? If not any pointers would be welcome and well received.






the president's pay wasn't upped, only the cabinet.


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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 4:34:42 PM   
variation30


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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

~FR~

SOS is not a civil office under the authority of the United States. It's an advisory position under the authority of the CIC which is why the duties of the SOS are determined by the President and not by law.

You're the same guy who thought Condie was president for a few minutes, right?  ::chuckles::


the secretary of state does have advisory duties...she also has other...like being the head of the department of state.

it's a civil office.

and the 20th amendment reads "be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States" that includes offices under the president.

and yes, I am the same guy who has not found any bit of legislation or order that says the president elect's term begins at noon on january the 20th ::chuckles::


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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 4:56:12 PM   
variation30


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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

Wow. You ARE a neocon. Destroying a country, if not the whole world, just to prove your point?


it's not to prove my point. it's that these policies affect me...and the only way they will go away is if people learn certain lessons...and this is the only way they'll learn them.

and I'm an anarcho-capitalist. not a neo-con.

quote:

Um... What makes you think that a private firm could do what even very savvy institutional investors couldn't accomplish? That's why we have the SEC, and laws to back them up. Unfortunately, in the last 30 years of "deregulation" we have allowed it to be toothless and corrupt.


excuse me...but could you point to any of these deregulations? bush was a big corporate supporter, right? name me one deregulation that occured under his reign. just one.

and if you want an example of the private sector succeeding when the SEC and their laws fails...here ya go big guy: http://mises.org/story/3260

quote:

The thing with "learning the lessons" is that it last at most a generation. All these lessons you want people to learn are things we already had, in the form of the Great Depression, Dust Bowl, Vietnam War, ...


some people learned lessons from these things, I agree. but not our politicians.

quote:

Have you - and have we - learned the lessons? No. We undid antitrust laws and banking and investment regulations left and right - regulations that were put in place after our grandparents learned their lesson.


mhm. which deregulations were these? I'm just curious which bills did this. I seem to remember antitrust suits going on a few years ago. also, could you tell me how deregulation is responsible for our current crisis? I would posit that artificially low interest rates, buying on massive debt, and the absense of the fear of failure is responsible...but you seem very educated and I eagerly await your explanation.

quote:

And I find it interesting that you don't mention the one thing that brought us from a surplus to the largest deficit in history: the invasion of Iraq and our outrageous amount of military spending.


I could also mention what is costing more than the invasion of iraq (which I think is at 700 billion)...obama's 1 trillion a year plan.

and if I had it my way, we would not be involved in any of our current wars...nor would we have any troops stationed overseas.

hell...if I had it my way we wouldn't have a standing army.


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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 6:02:23 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30
was I just called a neocon?




       Get used to it.  Some around here are only comfortable debating ideas and positions they assign to you, instead of the ones you actually take. 

     

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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 6:26:21 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

huh? Seems to me the facts are the facts. The increase was rescinded in order to allow Hillary to take the position without violating the Constitution.  How is that an "us vs. them" issue? If there was no law broken what is there to be upset about?


Whether or not Hillary’s appointment is Constitutional or not was not my point.  My point is that politics brings out the worst forms of hypocrisy and meanness in people due to an us verses them tribal mentality (humans are a tribal species and we think along those lines).  My point is that if the situation was reversed, if it was the Republicans who had just been swept into power then the same people who have concerns about the Constitutionality of a Cabinet appointment would not while those who consider such questions to be whining would be screaming about the sanctity of the Constitution.  Victory (the triumph of us over them) is more important to people than principle.

For the record, I make no claims to being immune to this, but I do try to fight against it.

quote:

The truth is that most of the people I know who are anti-Obama ARE racist. Including my own father. Does that mean all of them are? No. But if there is no real issue (such as no law broken) but people continue to be upset, then what are we to assume? I suppose it might have nothing to do with racism and more to do with sour grapes.  Pick your character flaw.


What are we to assume?  Precisely my point!  Why do some people assume the worst about other people?  Answer:  because those other people are them.  The other.  The bad guys (they must be bad guys because they disagree with us).  That’s wrong.  If somebody makes a blatantly obvious racist statement about President Obama then by all means call the bastard on it but the man is the President of the United States of America and that means his policies, actions and statements are legitimate matters for critique.  Those who make those criticisms should not be obligated to put a disclaimer in front of every criticism they have of the man (in other words, we should grant the presumption of innocence, absent evidence to the contrary).      

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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/23/2009 10:34:45 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Certainly I care about The Constitution, it is the foundational document for this Nation.  What I question, variation30, is your interpretation there-of. 
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 1/23/2009 10:35:57 PM >

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RE: does anyone care that hillary clinton being the sec... - 1/24/2009 2:14:18 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30


the secretary of state does have advisory duties...she also has other...like being the head of the department of state.

it's a civil office.


It's just like Himself. He's got a job. He's subject to the rules and regulations of his company (although he can quit any time he likes). He also happens to be my boss, but I am not under the authority of his company, I'm under his authority. Condie was Bush's sub.. same thing.


quote:

and yes, I am the same guy who  has not found any bit of legislation or order that says the president elect's term begins at noon on january the 20th ::chuckles::


Amendment XX Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.

You mean like this?





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