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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 7:05:51 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
it's not a deterrent.

It's a damn good deterrent for repeat offenders. And if criminals don't think they are going to get caught, by your logic, throwing them in prison would be useless as well.

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 7:11:53 AM

Raechard

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If you have repeat murderers then sentencing is too lenient. The idea of prison is punishment and rehabilitation.

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 7:26:31 AM

kittinSol

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The death penalty is useless for society, but it satisfies a dark desire for vengeance in some individuals.

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 7:26:35 AM

TheHeretic

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Rehabilitation? Didn't you just say we are letting them out too soon?

If you think the death penalty is wrong, just say that, rather than tripping over your own arguments.

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Post #: 24

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 7:52:50 AM

Raechard

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Tripping over my arguments? It's you that are arguing my logic means prison is solely about deterring people from crime. That has never been the case there has always been an element of rehabilitation practiced.

If someone is let out too soon what does this have to do with the death penalty? What does it have to do with my opinion that some sentencing is too lenient and that can be easily fixed with longer sentences and the chance for actual rehabilitation to take place rather than an inmate just saying he has changed? I assume you only use the death penalty for those that murder people and the odd spy therefore these sentences should be lengthy and curtail actual reoffending rates for these crimes anyway. Prison is about rehabilitation and a person should be let out when they are rehabilitated as judged by a parole board, if this means they are never let out so be it. I'm not saying rehabilitation can happen in short spaces of time and often prisoners are let out for the wrong reasons such as overcrowding and that must change by increasing capacity and locking up the entire population of the country if need be with consistent minimum sentencing so everyone knows where they stand.

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 8:18:57 AM

TheHeretic

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Rae, first you say that punishment is no deterrent because criminals don't think they will get caught, then you say the sentencing is too lenient, then you try to cover by saying we need mandatory minimums so people will know where they stand. I'm calling bullshit.

As for your assumptions about how I think the death penalty should be applied, you are very wrong. I think it is appropriate for far more than that.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 26

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 9:55:45 AM

Raechard

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I've not changed my opinion or wavered as you suggest but perhaps I've failed to convey it adequately to you sorry.

The death penalty isn't a deterrent.
Jail isn't a deterrent
Criminals don't fear rehabilitation
Sentencing is sometimes inconsistent and lenient
A set of minimum sentences for crimes would give people more faith in the punishment aspect
I oppose the death penalty for numerous reasons

What crimes do you desire the death penalty carried out for please elaborate, then I can comment on why you are wrong.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 1/24/2009 9:57:43 AM >

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 11:57:01 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
What crimes do you desire the death penalty carried out for please elaborate, then I can comment on why you are wrong.

Well, Rae, I certainly appreciate you bringing such an open-minded approach to the discussion

     The death penalty, and how it used, is only one aspect of my thoughts on the sorts of reforms we need in the criminal justice system, but I'll limit myself.

     Let's adjust our perspective on the question. What crimes should be met with the ultimate sanction? The acts of violent sexual predators and those who target __'s, of course. How about the breach of trust we place in elected officials? As far as I'm concerned, the Illinios Governor who was planning to sell a seat in the US Senate should be facing death as a possible sentence after he is impeached and removed from office. Politics makes that a tough sell, but I think it should be on the table in the extreme cases. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned the Chinese businessmen who have been sentenced to death in the poisoned milk case, and that the same would be appropriate if there is criminal negligence in the current peanut butter situation in the US (say, an executive decided to save money by knowingly cutting corners in safety and cleanliness). How about every auto executive who sat around the table discussing whether it would be cheaper to recall the cars with gas tanks that would explode in the wrong accident, or just pay the settlements to the families?

      I could keep going, but go ahead and do what you said you would.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 28

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 12:30:19 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

If you have repeat murderers then sentencing is too lenient. The idea of prison is punishment and rehabilitation.

Four reasons exist for prisons; retribution, seperation of the anti-social from society, deterrence, and rehabiliation. Now the debate is on to which of these should be concentrated more on.

In my opinion, retribution only serves the victim(s). Retribution is fine, but it should never be the main focus of criminal sentencing. Deterrence doesn't tend to factor in to a criminal's mind when committing a crime. Criminals tend to be pursuers of instant gratification, and they don't think about the consequences.

Rehabilitation can work for some offenders, and I think it should be vigorously applied in many cases. Drug addicts and petty thieves can benefit from rehabilitation programs, and I think we should expunge the permanent criminal records of these offenders once they've completed their sentences and brief probation periods back in the free world.

The main focus in criminal sentencing of violent, dangerous offenders should be seperation from society. The death penalty does work in that regards. Now we can also go back to exile and removal of citizenship from people like this. I would be all for that. I would agree with the abolishment of the death penalty if we had that option. We have uninhabited places all over the world that would be suitable for people like this. We could simply send them there and forget about them.

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 12:32:44 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We have uninhabited places all over the world that would be suitable for people like this. We could simply send them there and forget about them.

....Australia II: The sequal. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the legal system....

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Post #: 30

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 1:12:09 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

....Australia II: The sequal. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the legal system....

See this is what I don't understand about opponents of the death penalty. I give a perfectly reasonable alternative, and it's too cruel. What do y'all propose we do with these people? Prison? They can escape or harm other prisoners and correctional staff. Lobotomies, drugs, brainwashing? What's your alternative?

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 1:19:48 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

....Australia II: The sequal. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the legal system....

See this is what I don't understand about opponents of the death penalty. I give a perfectly reasonable alternative, and it's too cruel. What do y'all propose we do with these people? Prison? They can escape or harm other prisoners and correctional staff. Lobotomies, drugs, brainwashing? What's your alternative?

...want to point out where i even mentioned cruelty? You may want to try to develop a somewhat thicker skin. What i was driving at, is that the remedy you have suggested is not new.

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Post #: 32

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 1:23:32 PM

slaveboyforyou

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I realize the method is not new. Banishment is a very ancient method of dealing with criminals. It was considered worse than death in many ancient societies. But it does remove the need to kill those that are too dangerous to have amongst the rest of us. Okay you don't find it cruel, but you obviously don't agree with that idea. Like I said, what is the alternative?

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Post #: 33

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 1:30:21 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I realize the method is not new. Banishment is a very ancient method of dealing with criminals. It was considered worse than death in many ancient societies. But it does remove the need to kill those that are too dangerous to have amongst the rest of us. Okay you don't find it cruel, but you obviously don't agree with that idea. Like I said, what is the alternative?

...sheesh....you're so damn defensive. All i've said is that the idea has been tried before. So far you've misintepreted that as meaning i find it cruel, now you decide it means i'm against the idea. As solutions go its not without its merits. The problem is finding some land that fits the bill.

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Post #: 34

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/24/2009 1:37:29 PM

slaveboyforyou

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I'm not being defensive. I'm sorry if it appears that way. We do have several uninhabited islands in the Pacific that would fit the bill.

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/25/2009 5:58:37 AM

Irishknight

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I still have to say that if a dog has a history of harming people, we kill it for the protection of people. There is nothing wrong with protecting society from rabid people as well.

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/25/2009 6:44:37 AM

corysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I still have to say that if a dog has a history of harming people, we kill it for the protection of people. There is nothing wrong with protecting society from rabid people as well.

I agree totally. In many cases I've read about Pit Bulls, for example, the poor animal was trained by a human to do harm to others. Humans that kill innocent people whether terrorists bombing a marketplace full of women and children or a person who kills a shopkeeper or someone in a mall, or harms a child should be killed and as soon as possible. How do I really feel..I feel death by lethal injection after being put to sleep is a too generous a gift to these sub-humans. They should be strangled and their body parts donated back to society.

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RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/25/2009 7:19:13 AM

Termyn8or

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There is nothing wrong with killing a predator if you and your's are the prey. I prefer to remain at or near the top of the food chain. Is it fair ? Absolutely not. They were shaped into what they are by their environment usually, and that was not fair, and then they get execeuted, ending their short miserable life, and that's not fair.

But then again those poor cancer cells they might cut out of your body never really got a chance either did they ? It is too late to go back into the past and turn someone's life around, what's done is done. It's a damn shame, make no mistake about it, but if we can't make the tough decisions we will have a world ridden with crime and injustice for all. (take a quick look around BTW).

Execution, or even the mentioned banishment, is not fair, but it is a cleansing of society. You may think that anyone who advocates ex3ecutions would be happy to flip the switch on the electric chair, to drop the pellets into the acid or push the plunger on the syringe, but that is not true of all of us. Taking away someone's life is not good, but as responsible adults we all have to do things we do not want to do.

It is not a matter of revenge, and we can't let it become so. We must consider it like a murderer-ectomy, or a rapist-ectomy. This is from someone who could've been dead over this many years ago in the wild years, and who personally knows someone convicted of molestation, but is quite sure he did not do it. What's more, things like the Lindberg Law screw everything up. The first thing to do is to fix the legal system. Beyond reasonable doubt would have alot more weight to say the least. If you sit on a jury knowing that a conviction will send someone to their death, I would hope that you give it due consideration. We also need fully informed juries, a movement that gets started from time to time in this country but never seems to get off the ground. But you'll have that when you have a tyrannical government that relishes in it ability to enforce selectively, using a body of laws so vast and complex that they could put anyone they please in prison. If they could just kill them they would like it all the more, because dead men tell no tales, the crimes of the government are more likely to go unpunished.

So we need someone to do these executions, but we can't entrust that to the government, so what now ? Certainly no easy answer here.

T

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Post #: 38

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/25/2009 7:45:41 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
I still have to say that if a dog has a history of harming people, we kill it for the protection of people. There is nothing wrong with protecting society from rabid people as well.

"It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance."

"Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."

"I wish The Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had ever happened."

"So do all who live to face such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien.

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Post #: 39

RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums... - 1/25/2009 8:58:12 AM

Raechard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Let's adjust our perspective on the question. What crimes should be met with the ultimate sanction? The acts of violent sexual predators and those who target __'s, of course. How about the breach of trust we place in elected officials? As far as I'm concerned, the Illinios Governor who was planning to sell a seat in the US Senate should be facing death as a possible sentence after he is impeached and removed from office. Politics makes that a tough sell, but I think it should be on the table in the extreme cases. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned the Chinese businessmen who have been sentenced to death in the poisoned milk case, and that the same would be appropriate if there is criminal negligence in the current peanut butter situation in the US (say, an executive decided to save money by knowingly cutting corners in safety and cleanliness). How about every auto executive who sat around the table discussing whether it would be cheaper to recall the cars with gas tanks that would explode in the wrong accident, or just pay the settlements to the families?

I could keep going, but go ahead and do what you said you would.

Blimey that's a bit extreme don't you think using China as an example of best practice.

They used to quote the bible and say 'yes the death penalty is about an eye for an eye justice.' but you seem to be going far beyond this and are also including complex corporate cases where a scapegoat to take the blame is often looked for, and more than one person in an organisation will be incompetent but often only one will be singled out. Working in the civil engineering sector at the moment if you make a mistake costing lives you'll go to prison, fair enough. The problem with executing skilled workers is that people will opt to chose jobs with no responsibility. If they'd told me at school I could be imprisoned for my mistakes I probably would have gone in another direction job wise. If a politician starts claiming engineers, doctors or government officials should face execution for their mistakes just you watch the brain drain to your country that will occur. We have so many talented people from China in the UK, why is that?

As for sexual predators I think the punishment should fit the crime. Execution doesn't fit the crime, a victim can continue with their life after the crime no matter how hard that is for them. You are travelling down a very slippery slope because say we start executing those that didn't even murder someone, what is the next crime after that? We could implement what you are saying now and in years to come two people will be having the same debate with regards to ‘if petty thieves should be executed’. Once you start lowering the bar like that you'll soon be heading towards Dickensian type punishment.

IMO this below is why the death penalty doesn't make society safer:

Criminals do know the difference between right and wrong, their morality though is coloured by societies hypocrisy, hard to put into words really but society is supposed to be respected and believed in by people, that can only be the case if it isn't seen as hypocritical. In the majority of cases criminals don't want to hurt people, they see what they do as a way of making a living. The criminals that do often hurt people are often the ones that have no respect for the values of society because to them killing a rival in a gang is no different than society killing a threat, that is how they would see it. Believe it or not if a gang member broke into your house and killed you because you were in the way he’d probably be more disgusted with himself than if he killed another gang member, the only reason being is that you didn’t ask for it to happen. That would be their logic twisted as it is. Society has never really shown them that killing is wrong because it does it itself on a regular basis. There is no point society saying to anyone killing is wrong, people have to feel it and be disgusted with themselves for doing it. They will never feel that way if they can easily compare them killing a threat with society killing a threat. If a UK official is looking down upon me for killing, I'd feel shame not a sense of justification in my actions or that he was a hypocrite anyway.

You have no authority because human beings hate people that say do as I say not as I do. Hypocrisy is the worst human quality it will break down the respect for just about anything. If you say life is to be respected whilst killing people no one will ever respect life, not those on the fringes of society anyhow.

Sexual predators and such like are a different case entirely they've grown up with such warped views that you could easily class them as mentally ill and so why shouldn't they be treated as other dangerous mentally ill patients? The only reason they aren’t is the sexual stigma attached to their actions because that is the only thing society can focus on, not how they've come to be like this in the first place.

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えへまにんへえや
Nobody wants to listen to the same song over and over again!

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Post #: 40

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