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RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/25/2009 6:59:54 PM

rexrgisformidoni

Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
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*looks for that damn invisible typing again*. yes owner, I know they are left. oddly I never mentioned left or right...liberal and conservative were the terms I used. and as far as I am concerned, they are elitist. so think what you'd like, go play your horn, whatever. but people do have opinions different than yours. J

_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 41

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/25/2009 7:18:08 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
expect to hear a lot of voices you thought absent, but that have been here all along.

      Phil, I've been watching and listening for those voices for quite some time. There are echoes in the wind, but no chorus, no harmony. There should certainly be some common ground to be found. Theo Van Gogh should be a no-brainer. The restrictions of free expression to avoid offending a violent minority in Europe. Honor killings. Where is the outrage? Shouldn't there be some?

      Fuckit. I think a change of the light and focus is a damn good thing. The process is fun to watch.

     Where else are we going to see the perspectives shift?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 42

RE: Partisanship and Persheonal Opinion - 1/25/2009 8:00:05 PM

corysub

Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

deleted. not helpful.

"deleted" Dang it...I bet it was good too!

I agree that the new administration will soften its campaign rhetoric as they learn the reality of the times. Moderate liberalism is not a bad thing...and, hopefully, that is where the weight of responsibility on his shoulders will take him. Just as a democrat could not do what Nixon did to open the door the China and not suffer the wrath of the right, Obama might be able to open doors Bush could not do withhout suffering the wrath of the left.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 43

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/25/2009 8:33:37 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

*looks for that damn invisible typing again*. yes owner, I know they are left. oddly I never mentioned left or right...liberal and conservative were the terms I used. and as far as I am concerned, they are elitist. so think what you'd like, go play your horn, whatever. but people do have opinions different than yours. J

"both parties"

Who were talking about?

The French?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)

Post #: 44

RE: Partisanship and Persheonal Opinion - 1/25/2009 8:53:08 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

It was, I saw it.

You get Rich wound up and he may surprise you!

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

"deleted" Dang it...I bet it was good too!

I agree that the new administration will soften its campaign rhetoric as they learn the reality of the times. Moderate liberalism is not a bad thing...and, hopefully, that is where the weight of responsibility on his shoulders will take him. Just as a democrat could not do what Nixon did to open the door the China and not suffer the wrath of the right, Obama might be able to open doors Bush could not do withhout suffering the wrath of the left.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 45

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/25/2009 8:55:48 PM

Coldwarrior57

Posts: 297
Joined: 12/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A whole bunch of things are wrong with the op.

First the claim that liberals slander the military. Yes, some on the left do not not show a great deal of respect to servicepeople but it is a tiny minority. The number on the right who are eager to send my brothers in arms off to die for no good reason is far larger and far more more politically powerful and that casual disregard for their lives is a far greater insult than a few leftists slanders.

As a liberal I have been concerned with all forms of religious extremists far longer than most on the right and that didn't change in the last 8 years. What will hopefully change is my government may start actually dealing with the dangers posed by islamists rather than spending endless amounts of blood and treasure making Iraq safe for Haliburton.

As to the right suddenly becoming very aware of the civil liberties they so gladly gave up, it will happen and the howls of laughter and derision from the left pointing out the hypocricy will be a special pleasure for the next few years.

I love how we make a broad statement.
# 1. Yes, some on the left do not not show a great deal of respect to servicepeople but it is a tiny minority.
where did you get that "figure " a tiny amount? the rectal vault? you have no idea how many are there that show NO respect for the military.
# 2. The number on the right who are eager to send my brothers in arms off to die for no good reason is far larger and far more more politically powerful and that casual disregard for their lives is a far greater insult than a few leftists slanders.

again. you have NO data just the typical LIBERAL MANTRA of FEELINGS.
NO data just BABBLE.

# 3. As a liberal I have been concerned with all forms of religious extremists far longer than most on the right and that didn't change in the last 8 years. What will hopefully change is my government may start actually dealing with the dangers posed by islamists rather than spending endless amounts of blood and treasure making Iraq safe for Haliburton.

When clintoon was handing out no bid contracts to HALIBURTON , where you bitching then?
and you are aware that haliburton is the ONLY use company that does what it does. The only other company that does the same thing is a FRENCH company.

so before you start tossing stones at the OP , perhaps some more homework is in order.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 46

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/25/2009 8:59:43 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

During bush`s term, he rewrote a labor rule so that certain workers could then be classified as management,even though they earned wages,not a salary and bonuses.They earned ~so much~ an hour,by the hour.

The change allowed American businesses to not pay overtime to about 250 to 300 thousand of those wage earners.

Putting millions of extra dollars into corporate pockets and taking that hard earned money out of the pockets of working stiffs and Joe the plumbers.

It was a bone for big business and a knife in the back of good hardworking family men and women,from bush.And very typical of how bush opperated.He could club a worker and mug money from him on the sly and still claim he didn`t raise taxes.

~~~~~~~~~~

To me,it was just plain wrong and dirty pool,to make this change that hurt so many,to give even more money to rich people.

Did I think this was wrong and hurtful b/c of some blind devotion to a narrow political point of view?

Or did I think it was wrong ,greedy and usury because it was fucking wrong and usury and greedy to deny O/T to those Americans who worked for that O/T?

It`s really about rich vs. middle-class and right vs. wrong.Where those points match up politically are purely incidental and irrelevant.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/25/2009 9:08:45 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Coldwarrior57)

Post #: 47

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/25/2009 9:16:04 PM

rexrgisformidoni

Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline

good lord.

_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 48

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/25/2009 9:32:21 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Hello Rich,

My political stance in general is to the Left but there are issues where I am more moderate or even conservative. As with any other person, my life experiences, education and the opinions of those closest to me factor into the perceptions.

During the past months of the election one social indicator that became increasingly apparent to me was how much the world is changing and how fast those changes are happening, and how quickly we gain knowledge of these events. The information overload can be very tricky to navigate and I believe that a person needs a solid ethical foundation to approach the new risks and challenges before us all.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 49

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/25/2009 11:10:56 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57
I love how we make a broad statement.
# 1. Yes, some on the left do not not show a great deal of respect to servicepeople but it is a tiny minority.
where did you get that "figure " a tiny amount? the rectal vault? you have no idea how many are there that show NO respect for the military.

Day to day contact with leftists of all stripes including ones who are, like myself, veterans. It is a rare thing indeed to encounter a leftist who shows no respect for our servicepeople. If you're claiming otherwise it is definitely time to show some evidence, extraordinary claims etc.

quote:

# 2. The number on the right who are eager to send my brothers in arms off to die for no good reason is far larger and far more more politically powerful and that casual disregard for their lives is a far greater insult than a few leftists slanders.

again. you have NO data just the typical LIBERAL MANTRA of FEELINGS.
NO data just BABBLE.

I have the entire GOP power structure for the last 6 years. Where were the Bush administration guys resigning over sending troops to fight a war that wasn't needed? Where were the republicans when Saxby Chambliss thought it was a good idea to attack the patriotism and loyalty of a man who gave almost all he had to give for his nation? Where were the GOP in Congress when my nephew's company was sent into combat without body armor, radios or any sort of armor for their vehicles?

quote:

# 3. As a liberal I have been concerned with all forms of religious extremists far longer than most on the right and that didn't change in the last 8 years. What will hopefully change is my government may start actually dealing with the dangers posed by islamists rather than spending endless amounts of blood and treasure making Iraq safe for Haliburton.

When clintoon was handing out no bid contracts to HALIBURTON , where you bitching then?
and you are aware that haliburton is the ONLY use company that does what it does. The only other company that does the same thing is a FRENCH company.

Only one other company makes oil well equipment? Only one other company can serve bad food to GI's in Iraq? Only one other company can build roads and pipelines in Iraq? Only one other company can do laundry on bases in Iraq? I think you once again need to support this extraordinary claim.

(in reply to Coldwarrior57)

Post #: 50

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 1:07:09 AM

Truthiness

Posts: 251
Joined: 11/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

During bush`s term, he rewrote a labor rule so that certain workers could then be classified as management,even though they earned wages,not a salary and bonuses.They earned ~so much~ an hour,by the hour.

The change allowed American businesses to not pay overtime to about 250 to 300 thousand of those wage earners.

Putting millions of extra dollars into corporate pockets and taking that hard earned money out of the pockets of working stiffs and Joe the plumbers.

But of course, you don't mention that the same proposal increased the threshold for lower income workers to make IIRC 1.3 million lower income workers automatically eligible for overtime that weren't eligible before, while making lesser management positions with a $65k income or higher exempt from overtime. It can be argued ad inaseum if the proposal was a good idea or not, but it wasn't some "evil legislation designed to steal from the poor to give to the rich" like the liberal fanatics like to spin it as.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 51

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 1:32:52 AM

thesugarplum

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/16/2006
Status: offline

I believe, history will repeat itself. I believe, change is good - but what is REALLY changing? Show me a Unified National Healthcare System, and I'll believe it.

Cheers to 100 days of executive orders.
Cheers to a huge pay deduction which will weigh heavy on our family, as the military doesnt pay us enough already.

In 4 to 8 years, due time, things will revert, and once again, history will repeat itself.

(in reply to Truthiness)

Post #: 52

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 2:43:40 AM

SilverMark

Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline

First and foremost....I think a post that causes this much discussion that isn't starting with bashing someone or something is a great post, thanks Heretic!
As I have read through the replies I see most of the usual suspects, and views that are long held and expressed through their own personal experiences.
I have not known many liberals that would say Bush was anywhere near liberal just a poor manager of budgets As a person who's views come from the left
I would also not say that they do support the soldiers but, had doubts as to the reasons they fought based on the policies that took them there.
I believe that party lines are for those that hold office not for those that have valid opinions and can think for themselves. Each person derives opinion based on
where the information comes from and how it is perceived. I am not sure that my personal dislike of Bush ever precluded my ability to support anything that I thought was good for our country that came from his administration(for the life of me I can only come up with a few examples so maybe I am wrong). I hope as always for the "right thing" to be done and supported and for the wrong things not to be, no matter from which side the ideas come from. Having been on these boards long enough to know how some write or think, in the future as in the past we'll see some opinions based on less than fact and others well researched and thought out. I have a number of people here I disagree with but, I truly respect their views but, my respect is based on the intelligence displayed in content. Perhaps I am prejudiced but, I think as a group those that contribute here are quite bright with valid points to be made and I am very impressed with the effort that goes into them.

_____________________________

If you have sex with a siamese twin, is it considered a threesome?

The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow

It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

(in reply to thesugarplum)

Post #: 53

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 6:42:20 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Bush cut taxes for everyone, the percentage of the cut grew as your income decresed although the amount was greater for the rich. Before you tell me that is imposible remember that 1% of $1million is more that 3% of $25 thousand.

Whenever I make these types of arguments I usually provide some documentation.

Do you think you can favor us all with doing the same?

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 54

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 6:54:49 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Theo Van Gogh should be a no-brainer. The restrictions of free expression to avoid offending a violent minority in Europe. Honor killings. Where is the outrage? Shouldn't there be some?

It was a no-brainer, and there was plenty of outrage, which leaves me wondering exactly what are you suggesting?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 55

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 8:42:24 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thesugarplum

I believe, history will repeat itself. I believe, change is good - but what is REALLY changing? Show me a Unified National Healthcare System, and I'll believe it.

Cheers to 100 days of executive orders.
Cheers to a huge pay deduction which will weigh heavy on our family, as the military doesnt pay us enough already.

In 4 to 8 years, due time, things will revert, and once again, history will repeat itself.

I`m afraid you`re right.

One of my customers is a Viet Nam vet.He served a tour in Saigon at the main Navy facility.Not a hard tour,a desk job and being an officer made it more fun.

But he was there and lived that war and remembers it well,he`s in his 70s now.

We were shot`n the shit one day about Iraq and I asked him why didn`t people learn from Viet Nam how not to conduct a war or get decieved into one.He`s said people forget about every 20 years.

So I asked him if he thought in 20 years from now, would people forget bush and Iraq and all the lost lives and limbs.

He said hell yes.

Thanks to whom ever is serving in the military in your family.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/26/2009 8:43:20 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to thesugarplum)

Post #: 56

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 8:55:53 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: relief

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barmaid

Bush cut taxes for everyone, the percentage of the cut grew as your income decreased although the amount was greater for the rich. Before you tell me that is impossible remember that 1% of $million is more that 3% of $25 thousand.

Whenever I make these types of arguments I usually provide some documentation.

Do you think you can favor us all with doing the same?

You`re right.He`s beat`n around the bush about some`m.Just what it is isn`t known yet.For someone who claims non-partisanship,he`s awfully preoccupied with the subject.Kinda Freudian.

Almost cryptically,there`s vague insinuations along w/overt insults but it`s short on specifics or points.

I would like to know what he`s getting at too.But I think part of the word game fun is ambiguity and a liquid-like foundation to the discussion.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/26/2009 8:57:44 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 57

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 3:19:30 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
expect to hear a lot of voices you thought absent, but that have been here all along.

     Phil, I've been watching and listening for those voices for quite some time. There are echoes in the wind, but no chorus, no harmony. There should certainly be some common ground to be found. Theo Van Gogh should be a no-brainer. The restrictions of free expression to avoid offending a violent minority in Europe. Honor killings. Where is the outrage? Shouldn't there be some?

     Fuckit. I think a change of the light and focus is a damn good thing. The process is fun to watch.

    Where else are we going to see the perspectives shift?

...well, in Europe the killing of Theo Van Gogh did cause a lot of fuss. It certainly opened up the debate. However, it opened up a much borader debate for me and my friends at the time than just Islam. Take your sentence, "The restrictions of free expression to avoid offending a violent minority in Europe.". One could very easily rephrase it, "The restrictions of free choice to avoid offending a violent minority in the USA", and use it to describe a bunch of events in north america. Firebombing abortion clinics for instance.

It is a fruitless argument for a culture to decry the violent extremists of another culture without considering the violent extremists within its own culture.

As for honour killings. Hot topic in the UK, one addressed by an awful lot of low key community building efforts. i think the prism of the last 8 years has been wholly opaue in some areas. One of those areas being the reporting of how the rest of the world deals with topics that are seen as intractable in the USA.

The war on terror is clearly a culture war. Thing is, wars are rarely won by annihilating the other side. Wars are won by doing two things at the same time. Holding onto the military high ground is one thing.....the second thing is hard core diplomacy. This involves talking to ones enemy, and too many Americans foolishly see that as a bad thing. As this prism changes, i fervantly hope that talking to ones enemy is seen as more statemanlike and less traitorous in the US. Only then can any war on terror be finished and won.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 58

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/26/2009 4:49:14 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

but it`s short on specifics or points.

Right, that's what I noticed. If he got specific about the wars we are in, unemployment, the trade deficit, the banking debacle, our the national debt, or Supreme Court Appointments --- we might actually be able to address the merits of a given problem as opposed to trying to classify vague attitudes or positions.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 59

RE: Partisanship and Personal Opinion - 1/27/2009 5:04:41 AM

MmeGigs

Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I'm wondering lately about the role 'the party line' plays in our discussion of issues and events. How the views and thoughts of people get filtered through the prism of our politics, and shaped by the spin-meisters and spokesholes.

There was a study that was published a few years back about this. I found an article about it - Confirmation Bias and Political Groupthink They hooked some partisan folk up to MRI to see what was going on in their brains in response to political stimuli and found that the emotional centers were very active and the reasoning centers were pretty quiet. They found that people who strongly identified with a party get an emotional pay-off from criticizing the other side and letting their own side off the hook. "Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones,"

It kind of shook me up when I read about this just before the 2006 election. I started thinking about it when I found myself getting wound up about political stuff - that when that happened I was running on emotion, not reason, and it was time to step back and take another look at the issue.

quote:

I have long felt, for instance, that there should be much more concern about radical/fundamentalist Islam among the more liberally minded folks. Do you think we will see a shift in that now?

No, I don't. Terrorism may be more of a concern, but when it comes to religious fundamentalists, I think that many liberally minded folks' concerns are closer to home.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 60

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