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RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 11:42:34 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		I Personally have neither problems with xp+sp3, vista+sp1 (or sp2 beta) or windows 7
Seems that vista 64bit and windows 7 64 bit work a bit better for me.
Bit biased...because I have a quad core pc and it handles the heavy stuff anyway.

For companies..I would indeed go for technology that is known to work..XP or MacOs

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 11:44:02 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		This Douche Bag ACTUALLY said this to you?

I would be on the phone with the BBB and Merchant Serviced in a HEARTBEAT.

I hate shady business people

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 11:46:09 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

This Douche Bag ACTUALLY said this to you?

I would be on the phone with the BBB and Merchant Serviced in a HEARTBEAT.

I hate shady business people


LOL... like microsoft?

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 11:51:24 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You are very welcome.

Use this as your search phrase "problems downgrading vista to xp" . Lots of good hits there.


That is a major help Orion!  Thank you so very much!  I think I may add HP to that too... they just had to add some flavor to the mix.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 11:52:05 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		I have good experience with Microsoft helpdesks in general. At least the online ones. They even check twice back at you to be sure the problem is solved, when you didn't reply anymore.
It is propably mostly the hardware sellers who lack good service afther they got the money.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 12:00:45 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
This Douche Bag ACTUALLY said this to you?
I would be on the phone with the BBB and Merchant Serviced in a HEARTBEAT. I hate shady business people


LOL... like microsoft?

EXACTLY!
His point of view was that Microsoft says is 'should' work and of course, they'll 'help you' when it doesn't. However as a businessman, time down is money lost, and time spent interfacing with help desks is unproductive and involves at least 2-3 of my staff, who while chatting with India, aren't making me any money. 

My favorite times are when they say; "Wow - I haven't heard that problem before - let me get my supervisor on the phone." Then you start from scratch again.

Ah, the 'good old days' when I could run the business with an adding machine and a TI - BAII; which I still use btw!

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 1:03:48 PM   
FRSguy


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		I recently hired an ex microsoft developer (actually kind of stole him from them).  Anyways, when I first brought him on I asked him a couple of questions about the windows Vista. Anyways this is what I got.

-For the most part a computer running windows vista can be downgraded to win xp without any kind of problems (watch the bit versions though)

-- The only version of vista that actually seems to run at 100% is the Vista ultimate or business editions. The lower the version the more problems you will have.

-- The reason why Vista runs so slow on some systems is a stupid mistake on microsofts part. Normaly when they make software they have a list of requirements that the techs have to follow or stay within.  When it came to vista they were in a big hurry to get it out the door (why has not been explained)  they actually forgot to include in list of requirement the performance requirements... so..... the techs made both windows Vista and some of the newer versions of microsoft office without any regard as to how much memory and hard drive space the software took to run or how long the software actually took to acomplish something. Also, vista was never compleatly tested and was pushed out the door with a lot of known issues that microsofts testing center were told to disregaurd and would be delt with later.
Welcome to later....

Anywho... thats what I was told but I have no idea if its factual or not or just plain microsoft office rumurs.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 1:21:56 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		LOL... yeah dealt with later... with our money, loss and headache.  Then they send us to people who must read from a book to answer our questions and who are often limited to copying what is in the book to answer us.  After twenty... you are not listening to me... that is not my problem.. just send me the damn cd I need to re-install the damn thing over again... and not getting off the phone for something like the tenth time until they complied.  I like how they deal with things later! lol

If it hadn't been for DomDolf... and about five hours working on this thing by remote it would have cost us my son's disability case.  For me, that was homelessness or not.  I don't appreciate the way they handle business, our lives/business and our money.  Now I have to buy more microsoft stuff after all I had to buy to use the vista and will again have to buy new programs if I downgrade!

Then there is HP...

Grrrrrr lol

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 2:09:06 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The problems I had with SP1 and it stuffing my system up, I seasrched all over the net for the solution but then only found the problem being reported, it was mostly on mobile computers, lappies and notebooks, everyone was it seemed asking the same questions. I tried microsoft online help, I think they answered,but it was so full of technical jargon and techy stuff that my mind and interest just packed it's bags and pissed off. I needed something more simplistic, as I am not a techy. So my next move was HP online help, I complained and said how dissapointed I was with my first HP machine, (a machine brand that was recommended to me as a good machine), I threatened if I did not get any solution to this problem, I will ditch HP and never go back and  based upon my personal computer experiences, my company will not have HP either, any HP, their products will be black listed.

A threat, and where loss of reputation or money is concerned, help desks usually bite and they did, for I had an online correspondance with a help desk in India, where the people that helped were so polite, helpful and concerned about the problem, I got the feeling that not only did they care, but they were all ears and eager to get their teeth into the problem. Their synopsis was that the SP1 update  is incompatible with the connexant smart audio card my machine had, I had to upload new drivers manually, except that the driver microsoft had been sending out was not the right one, the HP help desk sent me the link to the correct driver, oh and recommended that I take SP1 off if I had anymore problems. I did have problems, so SP1 was binned, never to go back there. Perhaps it is that my lack of SP1 is the reason for my machine running slow, possibly, but I am stuck between a rock and a hard place, which I should'nt be for a 13 month old machine.

Oh I was so impressed with the service I received by the Indian technicians, I found out who the manager of the centre was and sent an email naming the persons I dealt with lauding them with every praise I could muster, they in my oppinion worked hard to simplify the subject and help me sort the problem out, I am always impressed with people who have the ability to teach in a way the pupil understands.

My recent problem is my AVG resident shield is picking up an awful lot of tracking cookies, cookies I noticed the resident shield said were activating every time I typed on my machine or clicked anything, key loggers I thought, something nasty was lurking on the machine, something neither spybot, A squared or Superantispyware had missed or been unable to shift. The cookies though many think are harmless, had buried themselves in a part of the registry where the scanners I use don't scan, suspicious actions thinks me, and one of the cookies was from a company Adobe uses, but calls it something else, so methinks hardly an innocent action, why hide behind another name and lodge the cookie somewhere most scanners don't look.

So I thought about windows defender, my firewall, perhaps that needs adjusting, but going into it and looking, like whaaaat, I can't play with that thing, that needs a techy to work that thing out, I was totally clueless so left it as it is. Why would microsoft supply a firewall that was totally un user friendly to most users,are they going down the route of motor manufacturers, making something so complex, only the usually yellow colour coded ancillaries can be touched by an owner, anything else, requires a skilled trained technician ?



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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 2:48:19 PM   
amativedame


Posts: 331
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:


Yes, I also would be interested in this, as it has crossed my mind more than over a hundred times to downgrade or upgrade to an OS that works. To admit though, before I bought this machine, I was aware of the techy press about how 'good' this system was and tried to get a machine with XP, but nothing was available locally, everything was vista, so I had a negative feeling about it to start with, but as this was all I could get, I was prepared to give it a go, it was either that of soldier on with a nine year old home built box of recovered parts running win 98. I also am not a techy, or techy minded with puters, I just require something that works with minimal or no messing around.

Lockit, it is also interesting that you also are running a HP, as my machine is a HP, and with the I believe the first version of vista on board, home basic so it says, build 6000. I don't know if it is the same with your machine, but I tend not to trust updates from microshaft, as they always seem to mess up in one way or another. The advice I received was only to take updates from HP, and to date, nothing HP have sent has caused a problem to this machine. The first service pack, SP1, that is not on this machine, I disallow it, because everytime I tried to install, it, the puter froze, gave up, went to sleep got bored, whatever, but it would not install, and to make matters worse than they could be, SP1 is incompatible with my sound card, I lost sound for weeks and microshit technical either did'nt know or seemed not to care, in short, they were no help and HP were boggling over the problem too.

So so far, modern computers, I have not had a good experience, if this was a car, by now I would have got rid of it, unreliability I cannot deal with, especially when you depend on something.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I wanted to change my os from vista to xp... but was told not to because it might mess things up.  I would like to learn the truth on that because this machine is going down fast as it is.  But I don't get all the tech stuff I am reading and am afraid to do anything at this point.  Someone told me that HP did somethings that would make it tougher to do.  Where would I find good info for a non techie?


Yes, I also would be interested in this, as it has crossed my mind more than over a hundred times to downgrade or upgrade to an OS that works. To admit though, before I bought this machine, I was aware of the techy press about how 'good' this system was and tried to get a machine with XP, but nothing was available locally, everything was vista, so I had a negative feeling about it to start with, but as this was all I could get, I was prepared to give it a go, it was either that of soldier on with a nine year old home built box of recovered parts running win 98. I also am not a techy, or techy minded with puters, I just require something that works with minimal or no messing around.

Lockit, it is also interesting that you also are running a HP, as my machine is a HP, and with the I believe the first version of vista on board, home basic so it says, build 6000. I don't know if it is the same with your machine, but I tend not to trust updates from microshaft, as they always seem to mess up in one way or another. The advice I received was only to take updates from HP, and to date, nothing HP have sent has caused a problem to this machine. The first service pack, SP1, that is not on this machine, I disallow it, because everytime I tried to install, it, the puter froze, gave up, went to sleep got bored, whatever, but it would not install, and to make matters worse than they could be, SP1 is incompatible with my sound card, I lost sound for weeks and microshit  technical either did'nt know or seemed not to care, in short, they were no help and HP were boggling over the problem too.

So so far, modern computers, I have not had a good experience, if this was a car, by now I would have got rid of it, unreliability I cannot deal with, especially when you depend on something.



I have an HP with Vista as well.  I have no issues with Vista at all, and I've been running this machine for over a year.  This point last year, I'd had to do a total reformat... twice. In fact, I've had the best track record on this machine with vista then I've had with 98, ME or XP.  One would have to pry vista out my cold dead hands before they could install XP on here.  I find that my vista machine is twice as fast when compared to my laptop with a faster hard drive and more memory that runs XP.  HP updates however?  Never work... on either my desktop or notebook.  I've never had any issues with any windows updates.

I have vista home premium w/SP1 - 64 bit.

Out of curiosity, what is your windows experience index score?  It measures your computer's capability to run windows vista.  Go into the start menu and right click on computer, then on properties.  Should be in the middle of the system settings section.

Personally, I find the whole XP vs Vista thing amusing.  Did we not go through this when XP came out?  I remember people goin on and on about how XP was the devil and you should never ever resort to buying a computer with it.. and to go with ME instead.  I think the biggest issue that exists with Vista is that yes, it is a bit of a resource hog.  No, it is not compatible with bottom of the barrel parts and you do have to have a decent to above average computer to reap the benefits.  If you use Vista you need the resources and parts that are compatible.  Sounds to me that you have something thats incompatible.  The sound card may very well be part of it, and your lack of ram is most likely not helping matters.

The slow load of photoshop can be a couple things.  Damanged fonts can make it slow to load.  Ram makes a difference.  Anything you're running at the same time makes a difference, anti-viral programs included. 

http://www.pixalo.com/community/photo-manipulation/photoshop-cs2-runs-slow-3652.html


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 2:52:07 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amativedame

Anything you're running at the same time makes a difference, anti-viral programs included. 



....that five minute boot up time makes me wonder what else is running at start up......i'm not at my vista machine right now (vista home edition 32 bit, 2.2ghz dual core, 4 gb RAM...no problem with it except having to replace my beloved lexmark printer) but i'm positive you can edit the programs that load at start up quite easily.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 3:06:26 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Windows experience = 2.9, It was 2.5 when I first got the machine.

Would a lack of RAM cause the machine to be slow at everything, I mean I think I should be able to just click on something and a fraction of a second, it is there, web pages for instance, or opening files in my documents, not on this thing, it ponders and thinks before it does, whereas a pal's new machine with XP loaded flies.

Oh and this lappy gets hot in use, so I run a cooler under it.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 1/29/2009 3:10:40 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 3:14:14 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Would a lack of RAM cause the machine to be slow at everything,


...absolutely.
Think of any computer as a warehouse. The hard drive corresponds to how big it is. The processor, how fast the forklift truck is that picks stuff off the shelves to be delivered to the loading dock (the monitor). RAM corresponds to how much the forklift can carry at a time. Smaller RAM, more trips to the loading dock and back. Everything slows down.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 3:19:48 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		One thing that Vista has done, is keep the economy good in the IT sector. The company I do most of my contract work for will not support any of their IT clients on Vista. For larger accounts they will retro any machines at no extra cost.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

After signing the contract he said he's been keeping busy having businesses order Vista and not finding out until later that some things just don't work. I almost canceled the order because I asked him why he even suggested 'vista' in the first place. His answer - as you would expect - "you don't get to bill service time if your customer doesn't have a problem"!


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 3:27:21 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		We got our new computer in December, went from running XP on the old one to running Vista on the new one...I must be in the minority but I absolutly love Vista. I have not had any issues with it at all...neither has the teenager.

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RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 3:28:45 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amativedame

I have an HP with Vista as well.  I have no issues with Vista at all, and I've been running this machine for over a year.  This point last year, I'd had to do a total reformat... twice. In fact, I've had the best track record on this machine with vista then I've had with 98, ME or XP.  One would have to pry vista out my cold dead hands before they could install XP on here.  I find that my vista machine is twice as fast when compared to my laptop with a faster hard drive and more memory that runs XP.  HP updates however?  Never work... on either my desktop or notebook.  I've never had any issues with any windows updates.

I have vista home premium w/SP1 - 64 bit.


You would be in the minority of those that do not have problems. What do you use your computer for?

quote:


Personally, I find the whole XP vs Vista thing amusing.  Did we not go through this when XP came out?  I remember people goin on and on about how XP was the devil and you should never ever resort to buying a computer with it.. and to go with ME instead.  I think the biggest issue that exists with Vista is that yes, it is a bit of a resource hog.  No, it is not compatible with bottom of the barrel parts and you do have to have a decent to above average computer to reap the benefits.  If you use Vista you need the resources and parts that are compatible.  Sounds to me that you have something thats incompatible.  The sound card may very well be part of it, and your lack of ram is most likely not helping matters.


In a business environment you are speaking of several tens of thousands of dollars to have a decent to above average computer for everyone and replace old printers and such that work just fine. You see this is where the big difference is between when XP came out, and now with Vista. Any IT person worth a shit, will tell you to never upgrade the OS within the first year, so that everyone else can finish testing what Microsoft should have done. How long has Vista been out?  Now ask yourself why are they putting Vista on obviously incompatable machines, and the answer is MS shoving it down everyone's throat. If Vista was actually so great for everyone, they would not need to strong arm to get the new OS across to businesses.

There is the perfect world that MicroSoft tests in, and then there is the real world that businesses operate in. Maybe the new revision of their platform will be good in a year or two.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 3:29:39 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have plenty of speed.  But it is the first vista they put out.  Because I could not do back ups and it decided to put them somewhere... it has bogged down a bit but the real problem isn't speed for me.  It tells me to do a back up or clean some things up at least every half an hour and yet it won't clean them out or gets no extra space in doing it.  Reformating is a real hassle as you have to spend forever redoing everything and lose something in the process.  At least I do.

Hell I can be working on something and everything goes poof... gone... back to desktop.  Setting can change over night.  I can't get into area's that need the administrator... I am the administrator... no on had shared this computer.  I can't even remember all the issues I have had with it.  I have run many other computers with no problems expect my Hp comps with a first out os.

I wanted a computer... went and bought one after many hours talking to the sales people and tech's and finding the right machine for my needs.  I didn't go upper end or lower end.  I shouldn't have to worry about what doesn't work with what inside my computer.  It should work together. I didn't put it all in there... But microsoft will blame Hp.. Hp blames microsoft and the non techie here gets screwed and not in a good way.

I have a win 98 se that still runs.  My first xp... one of the first again... was a problem from the start and died an early death.  It was an Hp too.  I swore never again... but of course the informative tech's and sales people who had been helpful with many things before... told me Hp had improved.  That I am guilty of. lol

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 8:18:44 PM   
amativedame


Posts: 331
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: amativedame

I have an HP with Vista as well.  I have no issues with Vista at all, and I've been running this machine for over a year.  This point last year, I'd had to do a total reformat... twice. In fact, I've had the best track record on this machine with vista then I've had with 98, ME or XP.  One would have to pry vista out my cold dead hands before they could install XP on here.  I find that my vista machine is twice as fast when compared to my laptop with a faster hard drive and more memory that runs XP.  HP updates however?  Never work... on either my desktop or notebook.  I've never had any issues with any windows updates.

I have vista home premium w/SP1 - 64 bit.


You would be in the minority of those that do not have problems. What do you use your computer for?


General use, gaming, & image processing....

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: amativedame
Personally, I find the whole XP vs Vista thing amusing.  Did we not go through this when XP came out?  I remember people goin on and on about how XP was the devil and you should never ever resort to buying a computer with it.. and to go with ME instead.  I think the biggest issue that exists with Vista is that yes, it is a bit of a resource hog.  No, it is not compatible with bottom of the barrel parts and you do have to have a decent to above average computer to reap the benefits.  If you use Vista you need the resources and parts that are compatible.  Sounds to me that you have something thats incompatible.  The sound card may very well be part of it, and your lack of ram is most likely not helping matters.


In a business environment you are speaking of several tens of thousands of dollars to have a decent to above average computer for everyone and replace old printers and such that work just fine. You see this is where the big difference is between when XP came out, and now with Vista. Any IT person worth a shit, will tell you to never upgrade the OS within the first year, so that everyone else can finish testing what Microsoft should have done. How long has Vista been out?  Now ask yourself why are they putting Vista on obviously incompatable machines, and the answer is MS shoving it down everyone's throat. If Vista was actually so great for everyone, they would not need to strong arm to get the new OS across to businesses.

There is the perfect world that MicroSoft tests in, and then there is the real world that businesses operate in. Maybe the new revision of their platform will be good in a year or two.


I would definitely agree that vista is a pain in the ass for business.  I can't argue with that, but we aren't talking about a business user here.  I had more then a few contacts in both the programming and IT sectors when XP came out.  Heard the same issues then as I do now.  Same ones you mention as well.  Vista at this point isn't brand new either.  Lets face it, it was released to business customers in late 2006.  It was released to all consumers in Jan of 2007.  Its been out two years.  There isn't anything in our world that's perfect... I don't ever expect that to change.  To date, we haven't found a computer operating system that is.  If we had, we wouldn't be having this conversation would we?  So while we could pick apart every operating system ever put together, the only thing we can home for is that whatever manufactorer listens and works to correct it.

As far as I'm concerned.. they are putting Vista on machines that aren't compatible because its what customers want.  Its been well known for a while what you need for Vista, yet people still (and will continue) to buy computers that don't fit the bill.  They don't want to spend the money, and many feel that its bull or somehow doesn't apply to them.  We're a stupid society, and its a concept that takes more thought then I think a lot of us really want to have to deal with.  Expecting microsoft not to do that is like expecting the US to outlaw unhealthy food.  Wouldn't get anyone anything but strife.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 8:26:04 PM   
amativedame


Posts: 331
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Windows experience = 2.9, It was 2.5 when I first got the machine.

Would a lack of RAM cause the machine to be slow at everything, I mean I think I should be able to just click on something and a fraction of a second, it is there, web pages for instance, or opening files in my documents, not on this thing, it ponders and thinks before it does, whereas a pal's new machine with XP loaded flies.

Oh and this lappy gets hot in use, so I run a cooler under it.



While those are just estimates... the number shadows that your hardware might be part of the issues you're having.  You're just about at the low end of end of what one might recommend for things like photoshop.  I would doubt that its the whole issue, but I would be surprised if it didn't influence things a bit.  There is a ton of things out there about speeding up photoshop.  Might be helpful to google a bit and wade through some things.  Might find some tips that are helpful.  I don't have anywhere near the issues loading photoshop that you do, although I do find the newer versions a lot slower to load then my older version from years past on my old system.  I've still never had it take more then a minute... and I always have more then just that loaded.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-vista/get/experience-index.aspx

to quote them:

A computer with a base score of 1.0 or 2.0 usually has sufficient performance to do most general computing tasks, such as run office productivity applications and search the Internet. However, a computer with this base score is generally not powerful enough to run Windows Aero, or the advanced multimedia experiences that are available with Windows Vista.A computer with a base score of 3.0 is able to run Windows Aero and many new features of Windows Vista at a basic level. Some of the new Windows Vista advanced features might not have all of their functionality available. For example, a machine with a base score of 3.0 can display the Windows Vista theme at a resolution of 1280 × 1024, but might struggle to run the theme on multiple monitors. Or, it can play digital TV content but might struggle to play High Definition Television (HDTV) content.


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Always remember that great love and great achievements both involve great risk.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Vista !!! - 1/29/2009 8:29:27 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		When you buy a computer with vista on it... the damn thing should be compatible!  Most of us didn't buy a computer and then put vista on it.  Those of us complaining bought it as is and as is, it should work.  What is stupid about wanting to purchase a product that works at at least a thousand dollars a shot?  I asked the right questions... but was lied to...  So with the great business practices of at least three companies... the consumer who isn't a tech and doesn't have a fortune to spend, gets screwed and has no recourse.  How can the consumer be blamed for business practices that should be illegal?  We can sue a contactor building a bad home... we can even sue a doctor who is neglectful... but... the almighty computer gods are allowed to take advantage and fuck us.

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(in reply to amativedame)
Profile   Post #: 60
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