RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie

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RCdc -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 7:27:15 AM)
Thank you for answering D - you rock as ever. Yes it is all on TV before, however the way he does it is very Clockwork Orange/Rage and in that sense, extremely disturbing. I don't know if you sound like Wilders... there are certain aspects that have Wilders air about them, but then they disappear in your post above and you sound nothing like him at all... I think the biggest issue is the person behind the propaganda and the way the film was presented. Showing an anti islamic film isn't that uncommon... it's the intention behind it and Wilders should be held accountable. the.dark.

JustDarkness -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 7:31:27 AM)
Although Wilders is a weirdo by times..it was he who made discussion possible. Before...politicians ignored the discussion. Now they are working hard to listen to the people again....gladly. nice alternative...for Wilders movie...although this beeing a soft movie...about the good of Islam....the truth will be somewhere in the middle http://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/2494835/7622406 The Dark, some words might have an Wilders air to them..because in somethings I agree with him..just not all.

kdsub -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:24:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness Yes but the problem we have here is not...just the "war against terrorisme" problem we have normal problems with huge groups of maroccan groups attacking people, robberies, police not daring to enter their neigbourhoods. They are not fundamentalist, even when they scream such things and quote the islam. The problem is much bigger. We dutch don't believe much in the El-quada stuff.....we just see a certain group out of control. And sadly yes..some try to project our local problem on the whole world...that sucks. I have lovely muslim neigbours from Iraq..can't wish for better people. Propably ever 10th dutch person has foreigners as neigbours. Has always been like that and we don't mind that. I understand where you are coming from and I'm with you...it’s different when you live something then when you see it on television or read it on the net or in newspapers. It’s easy to make a moral judgment from a distance…when you aren’t experiencing the assault on your culture directly. There is a basic problem with the Muslim culture today… they have trouble separating religion from government. They do not desire to live with another culture… they feel it is their religious duty to convert it or replace it. Butch

kittinSol -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:28:19 AM)
There is no 'assault on culture'. There are cultures intertwining. It is precisely this divisive, belligerent dialectic, that is at the root of the European extreme right's success.

JustDarkness -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:30:43 AM)
Why do you keep mentioning extreme right because people see it different then you? There are is more then just the extreme's.

kdsub -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:32:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol There is no 'assault on culture'. There are cultures intertwining. It is precisely this divisive, belligerent dialectic, that is at the root of the European extreme right's success. kittinSol I do agree with you on most things but I do believe you are wrong here... It is an assault on a culture... it has happened in the past...often...and it is happing today. There is some but not enough intertwining of cultures... The difference between them is too great. Butch

kittinSol -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:40:06 AM)
When was the last time you visited Europe, Butch?

philosophy -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:41:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub The difference between them is too great. ...that's a self fulfilling prophecy......

kittinSol -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:41:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness Why do you keep mentioning extreme right because people see it different then you? There are is more then just the extreme's. Perhaps you are being humourous? The extreme right is pretty much the subject of this thread!

popeye1250 -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:42:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol There is no 'assault on culture'. There are cultures intertwining. It is precisely this divisive, belligerent dialectic, that is at the root of the European extreme right's success. Kittin, perhaps you and me should stay out of Holland, we'd probably be arrested. I live to "offend" people! "Hey! I'm a fuckin' ARTIST!" You got a fuckin' problem with that asshole?" "It's Performance Art!" That's my standard built-in excuse.[:)]

JustDarkness -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:46:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness Why do you keep mentioning extreme right because people see it different then you? There are is more then just the extreme's. Perhaps you are being humourous? The extreme right is pretty much the subject of this thread! the party is right..not extreme right. extreme right parties are not allowed in our goverment

kittinSol -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:47:34 AM)
Rofl!!! http://irr.org.uk/europebulletin/netherlands/extreme_right_politics/index.html

JustDarkness -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:50:13 AM)
so because it fits those people to call them extreme right..they are that? All the many voters overhere think differently. Fortuyn was not extreme right, neither is Wilders..even though he is outspoken. We have different groups that gladly are not in the politics..that are called here right winged.

colouredin -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:51:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub There is a basic problem with the Muslim culture today… they have trouble separating religion from government. They do not desire to live with another culture… they feel it is their religious duty to convert it or replace it. Butch I wonder just how many Muslims that you have actually met? Because I have never once had one try to convert me (Plenty socially acceptable Christians have tried though)

kittinSol -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:53:16 AM)
I don't quite know what to say, JustDarkness. If someone has a extreme right-wing beliefs and exhorts for extreme right-wing policies, yeah, I'd call them extreme right-wing. "THE HAGUE, 11/12/08 - The Party for Freedom (PVV) can be classified as extreme right, the University of Leiden and the Anne Frank foundation conclude. They presented their Racism and Extremism Monitor yesterday. "The problem of 'Islamophobia' has increased substantially in the Netherlands during the past year," the Anne Frank foundation stated. "This is not just a question of the climate of negative opinion concerning Muslims, but also of the rise in violence against this community". The foundation went on to say that "the extreme right-wing landscape in the Netherlands has changed fundamentally in recent years, on the one hand due to a sharp rise in far-right street activism, and on the other hand because of the way the increasingly radical Party for Freedom has manifested itself. The PVV can be classified as extreme right." Head researcher Jaap van Donselaar observed that the PVV is extreme right because of "the positive orientation on that which is indigenous (nationalism) and the strong aversion to that which is foreign (racism)". A court should decide whether the PVV should be banned, he declared." http://www.nisnews.nl/public/111208_3.htm

JustDarkness -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 8:59:18 AM)
And many call it freedom of speech. So./..the circle is around again. Weird how those who are against extremisme are always so extreme in their reponses. Guess..people are equal afther all.

popeye1250 -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 9:03:44 AM)
Kittin, "racism?" Which "race" are muslims?

kittinSol -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 9:05:39 AM)
Yep. An extreme ideology, like the one you seem to defend, demands that it be fought with extreme virulence.

kdsub -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 9:06:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness And many call it freedom of speech. So./..the circle is around again. Weird how those who are against extremisme are always so extreme in their reponses. Guess..people are equal afther all. lol.. I think we are brothers at heart.. I have noticed the same thing myself... But I must admit I am guilty of it as well. Butch

philosophy -> RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie (1/30/2009 9:08:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin I wonder just how many Muslims that you have actually met? Because I have never once had one try to convert me (Plenty socially acceptable Christians have tried though) ...it's that old basic propaganda trick called the big lie. Don't get me wrong, i don't think Kdsub started it. If the perception that an entire culture is inimical to the West gets propagated enough, then a whole slew of actions around the world become acceptable. In reality we have two challenges......firstly to counter actual active terrorists. Secondly to ensure that the conditions that create terrorists are dismantled. It's that second one that too many people ignore. It implies that we may have some influence on whether or not terrorists attack us.......and if we have influence then we have responsibility.

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