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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/30/2009 10:00:31 PM

corysub

Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc1234

http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2008/baker_suicide.html

Unfortunately, suicide rates seem to be on the rise - at least according to the above study by Johns Hopkins, so it may be a matter of the hardening economy and stress overall causing the increase in suicide rates - in addition to the stress of re-entering society. I have no idea about the training offered a soldier going off duty for them to re-enter the non-military work force (but agree this should be offered). This is a matter that a lot of people have to deal with as the jobs they held go 'poof' overnight, leaving only working at McDonald's an option if the industry in which they were employed disappears also.

While I don't think there is any question tht some soldiers might come home with extreme battle fatigue and mental problems that could lead to suicide. I also think that soldiers also experince the same problems civilians who killed themselves have such as finanancial, relationship problems, or reasons reflecting deteriorating health. The study cited also is really taking poetic license or a sort saying that suicides in the army are at record levels since it only goes back to 1980 when these records were started. Left out VietNam, WW2...and the one we all seem to forget...Korea.

A study I saw done in 2005 reported that their were over 30,000 suicideds in the country, or one almost every quarter/hour. It's really epidemic proportions and the military is reflects a microcosm of the broader population. There are time when ending it all does seem to be the best way out of a situation when nothing else is working. I forgot the doctors name who was helping very sick people to take their lives, but I think he provided a real service.

(in reply to mc1234)

Post #: 41

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/30/2009 11:02:31 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The bottom line is that moral is at an all time low,at least sinse Korea or Viet Nam.

Any serious proof of this, or is this just releasing flatulence out of the oral anus, my friend?

Firm

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Post #: 42

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 12:26:13 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

      Ok, Aravain, let's hop back into this. I had a peek at your profile to get some idea of where this stuff is coming from. Just to be clear, I wasn't aware of your orientation when I said a blowjob would be your appropriate thanks to a veteran for the freedoms you so casually take for granted. If I had been, I'd have said you should spend your tax return getting one a high-end hooker.

     I haven't gotten around to figuring out the multiple quote boxes, so I'll just use italics to mark when I'm quoting you...

       First and foremost, I'm going to address this:
Further proof you didn't read my posts (or are selectively reading, at best) in order to be able to continue believing that I'm some sort of evil person.

       No. I don't believe that. I get enough of that crap around here myself for being openly conservative on some issues. I see a very great rift in our respective views of the world, and the people in it. Nothing in your words that triggered this conversation made me think for a moment that you were "evil." In your digging to escape the label I placed on your words, there might be some question though. I might even have been hasty in applying that label. It might be a whole lot worse. We'll get to that.

(Not necessarily people)

Yes, I would. I also find hazing to be, not only illegal, but completely reprehensible (and am QUITE glad that I've only ever attended schools that, on first scent of hazing suspend the chapter). We don't need to depersonalize these people... *at all*. Those that are hazed are forever not the same (and usually for the WORSE, not better).

     What I'm getting from this is that you think if people go through a ritualized stress-testing, they emerge permanently broken? (Not necessarily people) Is that what you are saying?

They are soldiers first, people second (if at all) This would certainly seem to reinforce my assumption.

You also use the word 'subhuman' which I don't remember using Nope. You didn't. I didn't figure you meant the "not necessarily people" were uber-men. You said "not necessarily people." And now you've called them "worse."

'Depersonalization' or, in other words, *removing of the person*. I don't care if it's temporary, it's *wrong*. What makes you so sure about that? Young people have this way of covering themselves in delusions about their place in this world, and how it works. Stripping that away can be a very good thing. Think of it as a purification ritual. Getting down to the essence. Finding out what one is actually made of. If anyone's personhood is suspect Aravain, shouldn't it be those who have never been tested? Those who merely THINK they know who they are?
(Not necessarily people)

    Here is the thing. People don't stop being people. No matter what crazy worldview they adopt. No matter how much they associate themselves with something bigger. No matter what you may think of them.

     Bigotry is a bad thing, but what I'm questioning at this point is how you try to evade that charge by defending the idea of "not necessarily people," as a perfectly OK way to view others. You seem pretty casual about it. There is a label for that too. Most people wouldn't use the "I'm not a bigot, I'm a sociopath," defense.

      "Not necessarily people." God, that pisses me off. That's the mentality that put people into gas chambers and ovens, or denied the vote and civil rights over. That's the mentality that beat Matthew Shepard to death.

      We'll save the function of the military for another time.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 43

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 1:47:08 AM

ownedlilsweetie

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/1/2007
Status: offline

I think this thread would be most effective if those posting looked past the opportunity to get defensive and justify their opinions to others, and rather contained an open and honest discussion about moving forward and how to help these veterans, who are clearly hurting. I understand that each of us has a fundamental need to have our opinions understood. However I also believe that, opinions aside, we all agree that there is a definite problem that exists. I refuse to believe that quibling over details will in any way help solve it. The system in place for returning veterans is underfunded, understaffed, and abysmal in quality. The process veterans go through to get approved for service related disabilities, as well as their GI Bill benefits, is painstaking and designed to hinder the veteran in his or her efforts. Do I know why this is or the motivation behind it? No, and I can't say I really care about how the fubar system came to be. What matters is that it remains fubar, and that is a disservice to those who risked what they could to protect what we all have. I don't expect any solution or resulting alternative system to be perfect, as things rarely are. But that does not mean I can't work to make that which is in place infinitely better.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 44

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 5:34:32 AM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedlilsweetie

I think this thread would be most effective if those posting looked past the opportunity to get defensive and justify their opinions to others, and rather contained an open and honest discussion about moving forward and how to help these veterans, who are clearly hurting. I understand that each of us has a fundamental need to have our opinions understood. However I also believe that, opinions aside, we all agree that there is a definite problem that exists. I refuse to believe that quibling over details will in any way help solve it. The system in place for returning veterans is underfunded, understaffed, and abysmal in quality. The process veterans go through to get approved for service related disabilities, as well as their GI Bill benefits, is painstaking and designed to hinder the veteran in his or her efforts. Do I know why this is or the motivation behind it? No, and I can't say I really care about how the fubar system came to be. What matters is that it remains fubar, and that is a disservice to those who risked what they could to protect what we all have. I don't expect any solution or resulting alternative system to be perfect, as things rarely are. But that does not mean I can't work to make that which is in place infinitely better.

< Message edited by GreedyTop -- 1/31/2009 5:35:06 AM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 6:16:55 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

I've only met the former... unless they were Marines. (well, not necessarily, but enough so that their individuality, what *makes* them a person (in my use of the word, at least), is secondary to the fact that they're a soldier. But that's part of the reason that my use of the word necessarily is important, as well. The US army does not place priority on soldiers keeping individuality (and from friends that couldn't make it, actively discourage it) because they're in the business of creating soldiers, not people.)

Those Marines are crazy cowboys Can't wait for one of my friends to get back from wherever he's been sent.

People don't lose their individuality in the military. They learn authority, to work as a team, to be able to depend on the person who has their back. They function in a greater structure than simply trying to decide whether they want to hit the snooze button a few more times and risk being late to work.

Yes, there's a lot of do things this way and this way only. A good part of that will keep you alive rather than occupying one of those solemn, flag-draped coffins. At the same time, the military has it's own way of reconizing and praising individuality as long as it functions within the scope of the mission. Military life doesn't care about nor is concerned for hurting your feelings. It doesn't care if you really want to be an artist or a musician when you signed up and said i want to be in the infantry or I want to do search and rescue.

There is always an adjustment coming back to civilian life. Part of that adjustment is depression. That may sound stupid and it may evidence itself in different ways, but coming back to a place where you can't depend on people, where they have no idea what you've been through, where they take rights and liberties for granted without ever having put themselves on the line to defend those rights and liberties, when you've been places and see how some folks live in abject conditions and realize just how friggin lucky we are... takes a bit. Add the trauma and mental issues that come from combat, that heightened sense of self and teamwork and yes, the prospect for depression soars. A friend of mine who came back from Afghanistan a few months ago when through a - trying to think of the word he used - re-assimilation? process that lasted a few weeks. Since most still have some service time left, even if it's not active reserve time, there is access to military doctors, psychologists and the like.Some use it. Most don't.

What most have to face at that point is finding a job in a failing economy, getting back in synch where everything and everyone is not a potential threat, and feeling completly out of place with a skillset that often has no cross reference in the civilian world.

This isn't anything new. Simply being in the military can result depression when returning to civilian life. Wars, combat, duty where you live on adrenalin, learn that bravery isn't the absence of fear, but how you conduct yourself whether the fear is there or not, all exacerbate the issues you have when you come back. I spent a lot of time talking to my friend after he came back. Not the tell me all about it kind of talking, but just giving him a place to talk with someone who understood what the military is like. Whether you support a war or an action is one thing. Supporting your friends, family, anyone who took part in it is another. Not everything has to be a government action. Pay attention, listen, help when you need to or they ask for it.

(in reply to aravain)

Post #: 46

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 6:27:56 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Our little army boy
Is coming home from B.F.P.O.
I've a bunch of purple flowers
To decorate a mammy's hero.

Mourning in the aerodrome,
The weather warmer, he is colder.
Four men in uniform
To carry home my little soldier.

What could he do?
Should have been a rock star.
But he didn't have the money for a guitar.
What could he do?
Should have been a politician.
But he never had a proper education.
What could he do?
Should have been a father.
But he never even made it to his twenties.
What a waste --
Army dreamers.
Ooh, what a waste of
Army dreamers.

Tears oer a tin box.
Oh, Jesus Christ, he wasn't to know,
Like a chicken with a fox,
He couldn't win the war with ego.

Give the kid the pick of pips,
And give him all your stripes and ribbons.
Now he's sitting in his hole,
He might as well have buttons and bows.

Army Dreamers - Kate Bush

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 1/31/2009 6:29:21 AM >

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Post #: 47

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 6:35:09 AM

corysub

Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I think both are factors along with the recession. Service personnel who were getting ready to come home have been reenlisting because of job scarcity in civilian life. The recruiters for these 2 wars have a particularly high rate of suicide too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
Does the view of the war itself (similiar to the "welcome" sometimes extended to returning Vietnam vets) play a large part in this disturbing trend? Or is the seeming lack of support from the government and military, the real problem?

I think the poor job market is an important consideration when soldiers are making a decision to re-up or not. I also think the reinlistment rate is higher than one would imagine because you are starting with a core of "volunteers"...people who decided to make a career of service to their country. tYou also have to understand that for a lot of service people, their unit is family...and and the branch of service an extended family. We are lucky and count our blessing that such people are out their among us.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 48

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 9:24:27 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedlilsweetie

I think this thread would be most effective if ...

Who is to say what "effective" means, Sweets? Do you think the right Deputy Director from the Department of Veteran's Affairs is going to happen on the brilliant solution they are looking for here?

Aren't the attitudes people carry about the military just as important?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to ownedlilsweetie)

Post #: 49

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 10:10:45 AM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
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First of all ownedlilsweetie, thank you for your thoughtful post and may i say

to the boards....great first post!

quote:

However I also believe that, opinions aside, we all agree that there is a definite problem that exists.

i think that's why people reacted so passionately about this subject. In the end, we're all on the same side. We all want a better and brighter future for our service men and women. At the same time, some of the best solutions arise as a result of heated debate. So as much as it may seem a bit disfunctional, these fora and the varying opinions present can be healthy.

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Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

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Post #: 50

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 10:16:35 AM

ownedlilsweetie

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/1/2007
Status: offline

My above post was, in large part if not entirely, opinion. Most posts are. The fundamental function of boards such as these is to bring people together to promote the exchange of ideas and opinions in a nonthreatening forum so that a sense of community might be established. I felt that the posts on this thread were somewhat negative in energy, and I tried to contribute an idea that might channel the energy expended in a more positive manner. I was attempting to show how, in my opinion, we could use these forums as a potential catalyst for positive change.

Anyone can agree or disagree with my posts here at their own discretion. I will not judge them for it - it is their right. Nor do I feel the need to defend my opinion. If someone wants to infer something I did not say from the contents of what I did say, chances are that clarification will not clarify the issue. That is negative and/or wasted energy that serves no constructive purpose.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 51

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 10:19:45 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

FR

....do we have suicide figures for the general population? Right now we don't know whether this is a general trend that looks like a military one because they keep better records.......

(in reply to ownedlilsweetie)

Post #: 52

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 10:45:40 AM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Officials expect the deaths to amount to a rate of 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, which is higher than the civilian rate — when adjusted to reflect the Army's younger and male-heavy demographics — for the first time in the same period of record-keeping

quote:

quote:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said the suicide rate for U.S. society overall was about 11 per 100,000 in 2004, the latest year for which the agency has figures. But the Army says the civilian rate is more like 19.5 per 100,000 when adjusted

quote:

The military's numbers don't include deaths after people have left the services. The Department of Veterans Affairs tracks those numbers and says there were 144 suicides among the nearly 500,000 service members who left the military from 2002-2005 after fighting in at least one of the two ongoing

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Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

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Post #: 53

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 11:00:57 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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aha...thanks Iron........

......my next question (there's always another question) ................ the 11%/19% is an average. Now it has been known for a long time that certain occupations have inherantly bigger suicide rates than others.....dentists, teachers, law enforcement for instance. It would be useful to find out if those professions have experienced a similar rise.....

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

Post #: 54

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 12:11:07 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

That's 11-19 per 100,000, Phil. More like .011-019% (??? - Not trusting my math this morning).

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 55

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 12:46:57 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That's 11-19 per 100,000, Phil. More like .011-019% (??? - Not trusting my math this morning).

...awww piddle you're right. Never claimed math as a strong point though. Still, you know what i'm driving at.......the military keep good records of suicide rates in a high stress profession. i'm wondering whether the rates have increased in other high risk professions. In which case we're looking at a broad societal causation. If not, then it's specific to the military.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 56

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 1:06:52 PM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedlilsweetie

I think this thread would be most effective if those posting looked past the opportunity to get defensive and justify their opinions to others, and rather contained an open and honest discussion about moving forward and how to help these veterans, who are clearly hurting. I understand that each of us has a fundamental need to have our opinions understood. However I also believe that, opinions aside, we all agree that there is a definite problem that exists. I refuse to believe that quibling over details will in any way help solve it. The system in place for returning veterans is underfunded, understaffed, and abysmal in quality. The process veterans go through to get approved for service related disabilities, as well as their GI Bill benefits, is painstaking and designed to hinder the veteran in his or her efforts. Do I know why this is or the motivation behind it? No, and I can't say I really care about how the fubar system came to be. What matters is that it remains fubar, and that is a disservice to those who risked what they could to protect what we all have. I don't expect any solution or resulting alternative system to be perfect, as things rarely are. But that does not mean I can't work to make that which is in place infinitely better.

As someone who works in a V.A. hospital every day, I can say, with 100% certainty, that these soldiers (god bless em), are prepared for absolutely nothing in civilian life by the military. They are hindered in their educations, they are stripped of individuality (that is precisely what boot camp is for, from the mouths of former drill sergeants and higher ups), they are given no, I repeat no form of re-introduction.

The G.I. bill is a joke, as are a very good number of things that they're promised upon enlistment. Military Recruiters are paid to lie. They are there to say anything a person wants to hear, promise them the moon if they have to, to get someone to sign up. A $15,000 sign on bonus? SURE! (which a very close friend of mine was 'promised', but afterwards was told, "What? No one ever said such a thing.") Health care after you get out? SURE! You know, if you get terribly disabled IN the military, AND are able to prove that it happened during that time, AND that it was our fault, AND you have to do so in this certain amount of time, AND no one is going to tell you about how to do that or help you in any way.

I see, all the time, these people struggling to not just regain individuality, but moreso, just to simply survive day to day. I LIVE with one of these people, and have for the last 14 years. I have grown up around these people all my life. I know and see all too well precisely why they kill themselves. My grandfather said sometimes that he wishes he'd died in the military, and seeing what it did to him, and how he was treated after he got home, and how his life consisted of pain and alchohol and terror, sometimes I wished he had too.

No matter what, alive or dead, when these people return home, they have given their lives for their service. Often more so alive than dead. They are changed, irrevocably, as people. More often than not for the worse. And the help that they are 'offered' (read: have to fight to get), is often sub par, because it is underfunded, because it is understaffed, because the people that are in official position to change it just don't care. And the people that can help, usually don't. That same mentality toward viet nam veterans still exists in a good number of people. "Just ignore them and they'll go away."

BUT! That can change, and it is up to every individual to change it. In little ways. Many V.A. hospitals now have small setups for temporary housing of homeless vets. Normally they're in old buildings that were just going to be shut down, but they decided to try and use it for something, so it's very underfunded. I won't bore you with the long details, because I don't feel like typing THAT much right now. However, there is a little town here called Coalville. Yesterday, I get in to work, and there is a PILE of boxes on three tables. These boxes contained, oh, maybe $85 worth of food. A lot of things were homemade, like cupcakes and cookies, some things bought like a box of tortilla chips. Small things. Why? Because the people of this dinky, backwater town that most people don't even know exist got together and said "You know what, lets get these guys up at the valour house something. It's going to be superbowl sunday, and they deserve a time to just sit down, watch a game, relax and enjoy the life and freedom that they've given to us, that we've just kicked back into their faces."

Now, while I can see how the meaning of "not necessarily people" could be misconstrued, and yes, admittedly upsets me a bit as well, that is nothing compared to the attitude of "They signed up voluntarily, they should just suck it up and deal with it."

Heretic, I may have disagreed with you in the past, but this... this is far beyond that. This kind of attitude is reprehensable and disgusting. This is the attitude that these people got when they returned home from Viet Nam, this is the kind of attitude that says, point blank, "I don't give a shit about them." I may not agree with wars, I wish we didn't need them, but they're there. They always have been, and always will be. I may not agree with why we're fighting in some places, but we're there, and my dislike for that isn't going to stop it. But, to take that kind of attitude toward these people when they return home and need help sickens me to my very core. Go up to a V.A. hospital sometime, work for them for a while. Even just volunteer for a bit. Get to know these people, listen to them, hear their stories, find out what they're really going through now that they're home, see what pains they have to deal with every day just to survive. THEN remember that these are the lucky ones, they are actually at the hospital trying to get help. They managed to fight through some of the red tape, where hundreds of thousands of others haven't. Recall that, if you were hired on somewhere and promised all this wonderful stuff and didn't get it, you could just quit. They can't. They signed on for 7 years or more, and even at the end of that term there is no guarantee that they'll get out, IF they even live that long. You sit there and wonder if someone that you work with and care about is even alive because they've not been in for a couple weeks and are prone to depressive bouts. You do that and then maybe you won't have that kind of attitude.

And on a personal note, if I may quote, "You're damn right we have freedom of thought and speech in this country. Thank a vet (in your case, giving a blowjob would be appropriate)."

With that, you have about as much room to call someone a bigot as David Duke does. Again, although I often disagreed with you, I used to look forward to your posts because they were normally thought provoking if nothing else. What happened? It's come down to sad, prejudiced personal attacks. I am very disappointed and feel very very sorry for you.

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We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

BiggKatt Studios

(in reply to ownedlilsweetie)

Post #: 57

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 1:15:42 PM

Lynnxz

Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline

Brilliant post BK :)

-Lynn, who is snarled in paperwork (or rather, the lack of) for injuries acquired while on duty.. yay.

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HBIC

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Post #: 58

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 1:21:22 PM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

Kisses to BK, great post and thankyou for your work and compassion.
Lucy

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Post #: 59

RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 2:14:51 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Kisses to BK, great post and thankyou for your work and compassion.
Lucy

I'm joining in.

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Post #: 60

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