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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 2:34:14 PM   
winterlight


Posts: 1319
Joined: 2/18/2006
Status: offline 		claps at BK!!!

Stands up and cheers for that great post!

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 2:53:36 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Something else to remember about suicide statistics is that women attempt suicide more frequently but are more likely to fail since they tend to go for pills. And men attempt suicide less frequently but with more lethal means like firearms and thus are more likely to succeed.
 
Not that success in this case is a good thing, mind you.
 
BK, thank you for the very important work you do and a great post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     That's 11-19 per 100,000, Phil.  More like .011-019% (??? - Not trusting my math this morning).

   


...awww piddle you're right. Never claimed math as a strong point though. Still, you know what i'm driving at.......the military keep good records of suicide rates in a high stress profession. i'm wondering whether the rates have increased in other high risk professions. In which case we're looking at a broad societal causation. If not, then it's specific to the military.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 4:36:54 PM   
ownedlilsweetie


Posts: 6
Joined: 5/1/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you so much, BKSir, for hitting the nail on the head.  The absolute absurdity of the processes in place astounds me.  It's appalling.  Master just received his disability rating - the proper one - this June.  He left the army in 1995.  It took him over ten years to get the benefits assured him at sign up.  Why? Because first he had to prove that he actually had been in the military.  Then he had to prove he had been overseas.  Then he had to prove that his injuries were a direct result of his service.  The list goes on.  And even with a 100% disability rating, he still does not get the care he needs.  The nearest VA center to us is so overwhelmed with clients, mostly with PTSD, that the one, singular psychologist simply does not have enough time in his day to see each veteran more than once a month.  There is a system in place where Master may be able to see a psychologist more locally, since heading into the nearest VA center is a full day trip, there and back, but the odds of getting approved for that local treatment? slim to none - after the insanely lengthy application process.  And I know that this is not an isolated incident.  I understand the need for a formal application process, with at least a small amount of bureauocracy to process and screen applications.  However, the current state of affairs is intolerable.  Intolerable, but with the potential for change.  Everyone has the potential to contribue to changing the process as they see fit or as their lives allow, but something has to be done to show these veterans that we, as a country, do care.  Society should show an interest in returning these men and women to a civilian life of quality.  The treatment and handling of veterans today may not have robbed them of their lives or liberties, but in many ways severly hinders their pursuit of happiness when they return home.  I don't think they signed that away on the dotted line.

(in reply to BKSir)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 6:17:10 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir

Heretic, I may have disagreed with you in the past, but this... this is far beyond that.  This kind of attitude is reprehensable and disgusting.  This is the attitude that these people got when they returned home from Viet Nam, this is the kind of attitude that says, point blank, "I don't give a shit about them." 



     Uhh, BK?  I'm one of "them."  So is my best friend.  So are two of my brothers, one of whom will be going back in the spring.  One of those suicides in previous years happened in a barracks room directly under mine.

     Is our veterans benefits system flawed, inefficient, needlessly bureaucratic and suffering from a serious case of head-up-the-ass?  Of course.  It is run by the government.

      No job training?  A vet is going to know how to show up on time and follow directions.  That puts them (us) head and shoulders above most job applicants. 

      The GI Bill is a joke?  Tell that to a young guy I know who will be getting a very desireable BS engineering degree to hang on his wall this May.  No student loan debt, no nights spent sleeping between customers at the Qwik-E-Mart. 

      Is there a lot we could and should be doing better?  Duh.  Is that something we need to do because veterans are broken, helpless, and just quite not good enough (not necessarily people)?  No.  And I have no intention whatsoever of changing my stance and tone with those who make such a case. 

      Oh. And BK?  Try reading the opening paragraph of my longish reply to Aravain again.  I adjusted on further research.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to BKSir)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 8:58:21 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		Changed, yes, when you were called on your own prejudicial blurt.  Doesn't change that it was said, doesn't change precisely what you meant by it.

And I'm not asking you to change your stance on what he said, that's your right to feel that way about it.  I'm appalled by the notion of They signed up voluntarily, so they should suck it up and deal with it.  In an ideal world, where they are told precisely what they're getting into, what they would be coming home to, what all hell they'd see, and what they wouldn't be getting out of the deal, that's all well and good.  This isn't an ideal world, and they're lied to from top to bottom, just to get them to sign on.  They have to go looking and fighting high and low to get anything accomplished toward what they were 'promised' after getting home, which is bullshit.  I believe that every last person who gets out of the military (not counting dishonorable discharges of course) should, with their orders, be handed a stack of papers to fill out and hand in, entitling them all to 100% health care and schooling.  Not having to fight for years and years to just find out who to even talk with about getting the necessary forms, which is just the very beginning of the hoop jumping.  Suck it up and deal with it is a death sentence to thousands of these men and women, nothing more, nothing less. 

For those like yourself and your friends and family that seem to be doing alright on that front.  Good!  I'm glad for you.  But these veterans out there are your brothers and sisters as well, and could use a bit of a hand with this kind of thing too.  Not "Well, you signed on voluntarily, sucks to be you."  You and yours obviously know where to go to get these things done, that's great.  Many, nay, most don't.  So instead of just shrugging at them and turning away, help them.  Tell them who to talk to at the V.A., what forms they'll need, help them fill those forms out.  If you were in action and needed to lift one of your brothers up during that 7 years and pull them to safety, you would have.  This is not that different.  Except that this is the rest of their lives, a 30, 40, 60 year war they're now fighting, just because they came home.  Pull a comrade out of harms way.  You signed up voluntarily too, you did that once, to help this country.  Volunteer to help it again, by spending a couple hours helping the living fallen.  It's a lot easier, a lot safer and a lot more rewarding on a personal level.


_____________________________

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I am the voices in your head.

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(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 9:38:08 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      Those are some pretty strong words you are putting in my mouth, BK.  Especially when you came rushing into this trying to rescue someone who tried to disguise his bigotry (or worse) by accusing me of bringing out the strawman...  

       You have no idea what I do.


       (Oh, and if you want to play the knight in shining tinfoil-over-cardboard armor, riding in on your hobby horse, you'd do well to note the timestamps)

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to BKSir)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 10:08:38 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		I never did say *I* called you on it.  You called yourself on it, and for that, I congratulate you.  You saw there was a problem, but I don't know if you understand why it was.  That's neither here nor there though. 

No, I don't have any idea what you do, but it certainly doesn't sound like much if you openly take the attitude of, "I'm doing fine, let them worry about themselves."

As I said before, I'm not trying to protect him or save him from anything.  I can understand completely your stance on what he said.  I'm not terribly overjoyed with it either.  That particular argument is between the two of you.  It seems you're not understanding what I am rather dismayed with you about, even after all of this.  And that is a shame.

Remember please, the story of the man who was walking down the street and saw all of the broken and damned, the beggars and lepers.  He looked to the sky and asked "God?  Why with all of the suffering, have you done nothing to help these people?"  God reached down and touched the man on the head and replied "I did.  I made you."


_____________________________

We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

BiggKatt Studios

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 10:41:24 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		So... ah... Heretic... what exactly DO you do?

I can't even tell why you're all jacked off, except that apparently you read the OP in an entirely different manner than everyone else.


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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/31/2009 10:57:12 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The stats at the very least call for a close hard interested look.

Our vets deserve that much.

The lack of curiosity about this issue is most troubling. Almost as if some can`t deal with the subject.

Could it be unconscious guilt?

Or embarrassment(by association/affiliation)?






< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/31/2009 10:58:48 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to BKSir)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 12:36:04 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

So... ah... Heretic... what exactly DO you do?




      That's a pretty personal question, Lynnxz, but since I like the pics on your profle, there are a number of simple things a concerned vet can do.  Support the local VFW.  Even if you have decent medical coverage elsewhere, take a cold or something to the VA clinic once a year.  (It bumps the number of clients served in their budget paperwork, and maybe helps provide a little more to those who only have that.)  Come out for a Stand Down.  You don't have to be rich to make a donation that will mean something to someone.  Drop off a few pair of good wool socks at a homeless shelter. 

     One thing I do, being a rather outspoken sort, is to challenge the bigotry and snideness that pops up, directed at those who serve, or have.  I challenge those who dehumanize them, be it because they are young and dumb, motivated by an unrelated agenda, or overcompensating for their own guilt at being too much of a pussy to actually step up and serve themselves.

     I'm not planning to stop doing that.

    

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 12:55:30 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir

No, I don't have any idea what you do, but it certainly doesn't sound like much if you openly take the attitude of, "I'm doing fine, let them worry about themselves."




      Where have I said this, BK?  Where have I said anything that could reasonably be restated as that?  Why would you make up such an insulting lie?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to BKSir)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 11:14:16 AM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline 		~FR~

So now I said *VETS* are not necessarily people?

You're putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head that, simply, aren't there.

In my philosophy I don't believe in the idea that all humans are people. All humans are HUMANS. You keep suggesting that I'm taking their humanity away or that I'm calling them subhuman all I'm saying is that not all of them are people (go back and read the definition. It says "Human, Individual" I never said that they weren't human, or losing their humanity, which is what you seem to take issue with) WHILE they're soldiers, according to my philosophy, research, and talks with Vets (both older and younger) and people who went through most or part of Basic that couldn't make it... wanna know something? All of the Vets and triers agree with me.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 11:29:36 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      Something else to consider when we get into veterans benefits, and nightmares of red tape.  It is not unique to veterans.  It is institutional across the human services spectrum of our government.  Social Security.  Medi-Care.  Unemployment.  Welfare and subsidized housing.  Pick your agency, people who should be getting served are being thrown into the cold.  It is the inherent inefficiency of government at work.  The process needs to be overhauled.  The waste and excessive bureaucracy need to be cleared out at the top, and the workforce itself should undergo the occasional purge.

    It's a lot bigger than just how we treat the veterans that need help. 

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to BKSir)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 11:35:15 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

In my philosophy I don't believe in the idea that all humans are people.



       I'm fascinated.  Please, elaborate on the differences between humans and people.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to aravain)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 11:37:09 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

~FR~

So now I said *VETS* are not necessarily people?

You're putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head that, simply, aren't there.

In my philosophy I don't believe in the idea that all humans are people. All humans are HUMANS. You keep suggesting that I'm taking their humanity away or that I'm calling them subhuman all I'm saying is that not all of them are people (go back and read the definition. It says "Human, Individual" I never said that they weren't human, or losing their humanity, which is what you seem to take issue with) WHILE they're soldiers, according to my philosophy, research, and talks with Vets (both older and younger) and people who went through most or part of Basic that couldn't make it... wanna know something? All of the Vets and triers agree with me.



Let's be perfectly honest here. You said:

That's *part* of the problem with the U.S. military... the different trainings and things reprogram the soldiers so that they're... well, soldiers, not necessarily people. Many people are able to readjust themselves back to civilian life, I'm sure... but there shouldn't be *any* that can't, in my opinion.

You went to great trouble to justify your "not necessarily people" comment, taking about "individuality" and the supposed lack thereof in the military training process, which Heretic went to great links to debunk.

The better course for you would have been to apologize and keep quiet. But you chose to attack further, accusing Heretic of not understanding, while your ignorance and bigotry - along with your willful blindness - continued to drive you in an attempt to justify your comment.

You just dug a deeper hole for yourself.

BK comments are better, but I don't see them as any sort of justification for your comments, nor do I totally agree with BK, even if he does have some factors in his favor.

What I (and I suspect Heretic) are tired of, and take umbrage to, are the many people who attempt to classify US soldiers as sub-human, primarily in an attempt to justify their other political objectives, and reasoning.

If you go back and read most of the threads over the years in which one damn poster after another starts a thread attempting to paint the American soldier as some sort of second class, sub-human, unthinking drone, criminal or some poor put upon dreg of society, you'll see me posting counter arguments and facts.

Posting facts rather than bullshit suppositions and off-the-wall political theories that paint the American solider as something that they can then use to further their ideological agenda.

We seen it enough times. We are tired of it, and call "bullshit".

Perhaps you aren't the worst of that crowd, but you "accidentally" went to the heart and used the very words that so many others simply danced around - "not necessarily people".

Now you're are trying to do a "What is, is." defense.

Which is about as effective as it was when Clinton attempted it.

My advice?

Drop the conversation, and come back in a couple of weeks and re-read this thread, and Heretics comments when it's not so personal, and you aren't so caught up in the defensive emotions.

Firm

ed: spelling

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 2/1/2009 12:02:34 PM >

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 11:39:08 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

In my philosophy I don't believe in the idea that all humans are people.



       I'm fascinated.  Please, elaborate on the differences between humans and people.


Ha!

This will be interesting!

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 11:44:34 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

In my philosophy I don't believe in the idea that all humans are people.



      I'm fascinated.  Please, elaborate on the differences between humans and people.


...er....i've tried very hard to be objective on this thread, but this line confuses the hell out of me. Surely people is a synonym for humans?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 12:05:24 PM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline 		~FR~

I already elaborated

I refuse to apologize when I'm not sorry and haven't even done (or said) anything wrong.

The only hole I've dug is yours. You've each demonstrated the inability to read completely each of my posts (or, at the very least, a lack of ability to think critically to see where my position comes from).

Apparently trying to make people understand where I'm coming from (and what I mean) is wrong? I don't see this as remotely similar to 'What is, is?' because, hey, it's a personal philosophy that makes sense to me, not really semantics. I don't believe in classes of people. Everyone deserves basic human rights (like the right to BE an individual, a person). What I take issue with in the military is the active discouraging (or even ripping) of one of those rights. Maybe TheHeretic (and your?) experience is different, but the experience of *many* people I've met in person is not. He has made the assertion that my opinions are ignorant, and you have backed that by claiming that it's willful... when they're anything but.

I wasn't defensive until words, thoughts, and behaviors were thrust onto me (read: I was attacked) I was accepting that I was, most likely, inarticulate in what I meant and in my second post tried to expound on my position to maybe make it make some more sense to those who don't think the same way I do. I only responded again, just before this, to point out (for other people who may be reading the thread 'late' and might not read the first couple pages) that words are being put in my mouth, thoughts are being thrust into my head, and behaviors are being forced onto me.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 12:07:31 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The fake outrage is palpable.

What the man said is that training a soldier requires that they lose their natural human aversion to killing other humans.

That inhibition, which is hard wired in most of us,must be broken through psychological methods that are as old as time.It`s nothing new.

Doesn`t mean a soldier is any less human or less humane than the average Joe.But denying that soldiers aren`t subject to these training methods and their affects isn`t being honest.They are trained to not think(independently), but to follow orders to the 't'.

Doesn`t mean they don`t think or operate like any young man or woman,but in battle or on duty,the training assures that as few lives as possible are lost.

It`s the way it must be for the military and LEOs of every nation.That`s the way it works.

~~~~~~

On another note,the attempt at say that aravain is putting soldiers down or belittling them is balderdash ,spouted be folks who show little or no concern for the welfare of our GIs anyway.

I could give a fuck if you say you`re a vet.If you show careless disregard for them or exploit them, literally or figuratively,you`re going to get called on it.

This is not a new story.As well,the disgusting responses to it are not new either.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/1/2009 12:16:37 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 2/1/2009 12:42:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Hey, Owner.

You care to answer my question to you earlier in the thread?

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 80
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