RE: Balance

RE: Balance (Full Version)

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MHOO314 -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 8:28:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HisMagdalene quote: ORIGINAL: amayos Hey, I know you. [:)] I followed you home. Luckily you already know you can keep me. [:D] Must have been a long walk---

veronicaofML -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 8:36:25 PM)
A submissive holds power to refuse. A slave does not. If the submissive cannot bring herself to submit to a desire, her responsibility is to communicate this as clearly as possible. If the dominant values his girl, he will weigh her refusal with his desire. Which is more important? I would say the submissive (if she is a good submissive)—not the desire. ========= soooo...if the Dom/Domme orders the slave to do something illegal....the slave is not a slave if they say no? sooo...if they order the slave to do something lifethreatening? EVERY human has the right to say no.. i am STILL Her slave..even if i say no. ya like it ya hate it ya are indifferent to it. i don't care.! every human being can say no..to tell ME i am no longer human if i call myself slave...? how would YOU feel if this non being cut your throat in the middle of the night? "I" have the right to say what i will/will not do...as a human i KNOW mueder is NOT right to do..but if i am a non being...YOUR death is on YOUR hands..right? d'ya understand? a dog is still a dog..even if treat him like one-of-kids... ya cannot change dna...with a name. i understand...in part...your IDEAL...but it is ONLY good on paper...not in real life. take care

tasha_tart -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 8:36:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: smilezz quote: But seriously...someone who has (presumably) voluntarily become a "slave" no longer has any rights whatsoever? Where do people get this idea from? quote: Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse? Sure she can refuse.....AND has the right to. quote: Or (to paraphrase from my mother) if mistress/master says, "Jump off a bridge," slave must do it? Nope, not at all. Since you seem to be replying to me, I hope you realize I was using rather extreme examples, to illustrate my disagreement with the poster I was replying to, not using them to indicate agreement with him. Tasha

truesub4u -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 8:47:12 PM)
ZenrageTheKeeper, I liked your quote from other thread the best. You, realistically, can't own something entirely if it has the ability to refuse you. And I really think this falls in this category as well. And once again, one can only define themselves in the manner of which the two involved set said limits and non limits. As far the OP......... yes, I think that if I Dom, Master which ever it is, has something that they like to do (have done or is doing all that can be done to research said subject) to keep bringing it up to said submissive or slave. Yes it may be said sub or slaves hard limits. It's called growing trust. As the relationship grows, and the trust grows, perhaps it being brought up again, maybe.... just maybe... the trust has grown to just the point of possibly trying the once off limits thing sujested by said Dom or Master. How is one to know.. if they don't bring it up again from time to time? I had played with a Dom from time to time before that had a hard limit of his own believe it or not... LOL... he flat refused to even remotely have the word FISTING mentioned in his home. It actually freaked him out. The mere thought of it. So it was never allowed to be brought up. Shocked the hell out of me one night, he not only mentioned it. But wanted to know if I would premit it. I told him, once he learned more on it, call me. But he never went further with it. Said the further research he did into it wasn't appealing to him. Go figure... LOL

smilezz -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 8:53:30 PM)
quote: Since you seem to be replying to me, I hope you realize I was using rather extreme examples, to illustrate my disagreement with the poster I was replying to, not using them to indicate agreement with him. Tasha Yes i did understand, Tasha, it was my mere reply also... ~smilezz~

tasha_tart -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 9:08:01 PM)
I figured as much [:)] just wanted to be sure. And with that, I'm signing off this thread. I should have known better than to get involved in a debate with such entrenched positions. Tasha

OscarHargraves -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 9:52:33 PM)
This has all been said before. A Submissive submits but reserves the right to refuse at will. In this lifestyle a person who volunteers to become a slave is saying they are giving up all rights to decide such things. HOWEVER any person in this country has the right to refuse anything for whatever reason. They CAN refuse but they must also live with the consequences of that decision. If you are adamant about not doing this then keep your relationship on a Dom/Sub level and do not consider going to the Master/Slave level. Period. 'Nuff said.

foxglove716 -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 10:17:55 PM)
We all agree that a reasonable and responsible master/mistress would never do anything to put a slave in danger. And in a perfect world they never would. But..... Its that "but" that makes a slaves responsibility just important as the masters/mistress'. It is the slaves responsibility to know, understand, and trust the master/mistress so that they can give up all rights.

amayos -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 10:32:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: foxglove716 We all agree that a reasonable and responsible master/mistress would never do anything to put a slave in danger. And in a perfect world they never would. But..... Its that "but" that makes a slaves responsibility just important as the masters/mistress'. It is the slaves responsibility to know, understand, and trust the master/mistress so that they quote: can give up all rights. In reflecting upon these words, I realized that perhaps I don't underscore this enough in my own. Perhaps there would be less vitriol about what I impart. Perhaps not. But truly, what you say is the crux of it all.

truesub4u -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 10:42:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OscarHargraves This has all been said before. A Submissive submits but reserves the right to refuse at will. In this lifestyle a person who volunteers to become a slave is saying they are giving up all rights to decide such things. HOWEVER any person in this country has the right to refuse anything for whatever reason. They CAN refuse but they must also live with the consequences of that decision. If you are adamant about not doing this then keep your relationship on a Dom/Sub level and do not consider going to the Master/Slave level. Period. 'Nuff said. I've taken notice to the fact though I've been accused myself of not going back thru threads of earlier in 2005 and late 2004. That I if took the time to do so I wouldn't be asking the same questions that have already been asked before. But I got to agree with you on this. I mean come on.... right now there are at least 4 threads going on about real or true submissives versus real or true slaves. ......... real or true Doms versus real or true Masters. (Ok wording sucks i know, especially after KnightofMist's post on Real/True Statements. ) But seriously.... even the responses are starting to repeat themselves not only the questions or statements.

wipmebeetme100 -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 10:48:23 PM)
quote: Where does the sub/slave draw the line. How does the sub/slave balance the need to want to please with her own personal limitations? Can said sub/slave say this will never happen especially if he/she progresses to status of slave. As owned property there is nothing i would not do if Master asked it of me. Immediate obedience without hesitation is the expectation. Does that mean i will like everything Master requires of me....not so much. Will i do everything Master requires of me regardless of how i feel about it....Absolutely, immediately and without hesitation.

amayos -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 10:49:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truesub4u But seriously.... even the responses are starting to repeat themselves not only the questions or statements. You noticed that, huh? [:D]

Noah -> RE: Balance (1/12/2006 11:57:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: newflowers quote: Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse? No, i think you miss or misinterpret the concept of the Master/slave dynamic. There are others better able to explain this that i - and i will leave it to them. A responsible master would never ask such a think and a slave could indeed refuse were a request/command to be illegal or life endangering. newflowers Oh please. In many places sodomy is illegal. Slave contracts are not legal anywhere that I know of. Hitting someone with an object is illegal in many places irrespective of consent. So the slave who can opt out of anything illegal can do a whole lot of coasting, yeah? The proposed criterion fails. It is a preposterous and empty bit of romanticism to say that a slave "does not have the power to refuse." Awaken from your CastleRealmic slumbers, little one. Do you think that every slave on every plantation did every thing he or she was told to do? If a slave lacks the power to refuse then no pre-Civil War american slave was ever punished for disobedience. Disobedience is impossible since the slave "lacks the power to refuse" (unless something is illegal, like buttsex, in which case the power surges up from where, exactly?) The Roman slave wars never happened. All the history books are wrong. Unless the slaves found a way to wage war upon their masters without refusing anything. Do you guys even hear what you're saying? I mean it isn't even coherent. Lacks the power to refuse. Please. Of course every human being can refuse. In genuine slavery (which has fuck-all to do with consent or some cub scout notion of "responsible mastering") an owner has access to tools which can effectively harm a person's will, and sometimes those tools were applied and sometimes with considerable and heinous success. But if the slave lacked the power to refuse then those tool would never have been used because they would never have been needed. The word slave in a BDSM context is metaphorical at most, a pale shadow of the existential plight of a human being captured and sold forever into bondage against his will. The circumstances of the individual will shape the consequences of refusal, and the consequences must be faced. In the case of genuine (non BDSM slavery) the consequence may be death or worse than death. That said, it is still the case that if you were abducted and taken to some quarter where genuine slavery is effectively practiced today and where your new owner held the power of life and death over you and viewed you as sub-human you could still refuse an order. And so can any BDSM "slave." Unless someone here is claiming that she is a twue slave in a sense that makes some poor bastard stolen from Africa and and chained to a 1790 Alabama flax mill nothing but a poser by comparison. If that slave had the power to refuse--and he did, hence the bullwhips--then you have the power to refuse. So please spare us this nonsense about lacking the power to refuse, those of you who bandy it about. It is incoherent to start with and it dishonors the memory of every genuine slave in history as well as the plight of all the genuine slaves alive and sufferring in the world today.

amayos -> RE: Balance (1/13/2006 1:22:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah It is a preposterous and empty bit of romanticism to say that a slave "does not have the power to refuse." Awaken from your CastleRealmic slumbers, little one. Do you think that every slave on every plantation did every thing he or she was told to do? Of course not, but this point is neither here nor there. Read on. quote: If a slave lacks the power to refuse then no pre-Civil War american slave was ever punished for disobedience. Disobedience is impossible since the slave "lacks the power to refuse" (unless something is illegal, like buttsex, in which case the power surges up from where, exactly?) The Roman slave wars never happened. All the history books are wrong. Unless the slaves found a way to wage war upon their masters without refusing anything. A slave can of course attempt to refuse (and face severe punishment for it). Do they have the recognized power or right as a slave to refuse? No. If they attempt to assert that power or right, there is a dire consequence. Pursuant to your historic examples, let's not forget what eventually happened to the slave revolt; Spartacus was killed and thousands of slaves were crucified quite grotesquely from Capua to Mother Rome. I would go on with other examples, but much of the collegiate babble on what a slave is and what a slave is not has become so unnecessarily vitriolic, I tire. quote: Do you guys even hear what you're saying? I mean it isn't even coherent. Actually, I have found the (intelligent) exchanges—not personal attacks—here coherent enough. quote: If that slave had the power to refuse--and he did, hence the bullwhips--then you have the power to refuse. So please spare us this nonsense about lacking the power to refuse, those of you who bandy it about. It is incoherent to start with and it dishonors the memory of every genuine slave in history as well as the plight of all the genuine slaves alive and suffering in the world today. Shall I now point something out? "Power" is being used (in at least my discussions) as "right or authority given to a person", not the physical resources inherent in oneself to act, despite consequences. You had some really good points earlier on in the thread, but I must tell you (with all due respect) that I and others of like-mind will "bandy about" who we are and what we do as much as we wish. WE do not dishonor slavery. We practice it.

FionaFineass -> RE: Balance (1/13/2006 3:04:55 AM)
IMO when one becomes a slave any limits they may of had would match/be the same as those of the Masters. No good Master would ever ask their slave to ever cross any of those ( his own) limits. why on earth would he say for exp. " Scat is a limit of mine but since You are my slave it is not a limit for you- you are a slave and have none" makes no sense to me. IMO yes a slave has limits but only those of their owners that wont ever be crossed so in a sense there is never any reason for a slave to ever have a reason to not want to do anything and everything for thier Master.

devanite -> RE: Balance (1/13/2006 4:16:42 AM)
It depends, it seems obvious that the domme for that relationship is bent on having the slave do that particular excersize and there may be a number of reasons (I'm no master nor do I want to be but I gues i am intelligent enough to answer this one) first of all you should ask yourself is your domme ever going to stop asking (probably not!), secondly you should try it once if you think you can just to get a real feel for it (and tell your domme you just want to try it once) I understand the fact that there arent alot of compatible people out there who want a human slave for their every whim and that you and this domme are trying to stick together but in order to do that you should be prepared to do everything your domme asks! While ultimately if you two are compatible on everything else then perhaps you should try it just once and if you dont feel that you could ever do it you need to tell your domme this in order for the both of you to get more comfortable with the relationship you have otherwise you will start to bother each other (the domme may get tired of the slaves unwillingness to cooperate or teh slave may become unhappy thinking that their domme does not think their slave is perfect anymore due to its lack of obidience!) anyways gtg

aurora31 -> RE: Balance (1/13/2006 4:29:36 AM)
Thank you for all the responses but I did not intend this thread to become another sub vs slave thread. Rather I was looking for tips on how to balance the need with in me to serve with the need to maintain some personal boundries. I am not owned at this time but I have been in some very detailed talks with a Dom. Who understands that I am still pretty new, that I have a strong desire to become slave and that I am not close to being there at this point. Who also understands that it will take much time trust and hard work for me to get there. I realize at this point in time I still maintain the right to say no. But even now the desire to please to give all of me no matter what is very strong. Due to this desire many of what I originally percieved as limits are no longer limits and my list of limits is really very short. The two obvious ones that we can't metion here, breath play, rape play,water sports, and scat. Now that does not mean there aren't still alot of things out there that I have not tried yet and that scare the hell out of me but they are things that given time and trust that I will do for my futere Dom/Master who ever he may be. My question still remains though how do I balance my over whelming desire to serve to please to be able to do "anything" he asks of me with maintaning my own limits. How do I make sure that in my desire to please that I do not do something that will later come back to haunt me aurora Disclaimer the anything does not refer to jumping of bridges or commiting murder or similar acts.

Padriag -> RE: Balance (1/13/2006 4:52:11 AM)
Ya know folks.. maybe it would be productive to set aside all the narcissitic and vitriolic debates about what is a slave and try actually dealing with the question the OP asked. You're so busy arguing YOUR ideals, you've forgotten the question. quote: ORIGINAL: aurora31 Lets say there is something that a sub/slave considers a very hard limit for what ever the reason may be (emotional, psychological, moral,to extreme). Lets say this sub/slaves Dom/Master really ejoys this activity. He/she is willing to forgo this activity becuase it causes said sub/slave so much distress. But he/she still brings the subject up often hoping to desensitize the sub/slave to this activity in hopes that she may some day be ok with it. The sub/slave very much wants to please her Dom/Master yet can't get past this. Where does the sub/slave draw the line. How does the sub/slave balance the need to want to please with her own personal limitations? Can said sub/slave say this will never happen especially if he/she progresses to status of slave. aurora Theory about slavery aside, here's some reality. You want to please your dominant, that's good. You have some limitations that prevent you from doing that as fully as you would like, that's a problem but its also a very human thing. Your question then is where is the balance between these two... here it is. You do the best you can, be willing to try... accept that you may fail, but if you tried your best, that's okay. That's it. Human beings are complex critters... there's all those messy emotions, taboos, morals, ethics, emotional baggage, ideologies, religious values, etc. getting in the way of being a mindlessly obedient slave. That's the reality of this lifestyle, of consensual submission in any form, whatever you call it. You may want to submit completely, but that doesn't mean you have the ability to do so. Frustrated you may feel like you've failed, or feel the need to set boundaries... or just give up. The better choice is to accept that right now there are some things you can't do, whatever the reason, and until whatever is holding you back changes its something you won't be able to do. Will it always be that way... who knows... I can't read the future and I suspect neither can you. Can you say you will never do something... you can say it, but you don't really know that. So the bottom line reality is this... right now for whatever reason there is something you can't do that this dom wishes you could. If that barrier within you, be it emotional, psychological, etc., can be removed... you'll be able to do it. If that barrier can't be removed, you won't. Its that simple. Begin Rant To everyone else, all the debates about subs vs slaves, what is a slave, etc... I've seen these arguments go round and round for more than a decade. In that time do you know what I've seen them accomplish? Just two things. One, both sides of any of those debates walked away more convinced they were right and the other side was wrong. Second, most new submissives came away more confused than when they started. So you tell me, what's the damn point? If all your accomplishing is stroking your own ego and confusing some submissives out there what have you really accomplished... and was it worth it? You want to know what a slave is... fine... here's an irrefutable definition. MY slave is whatever I say she is... period. Your definitions of what a slave is, or what the dictionary says, or historical examples there of, or hypothetical discussions of what they should or shouldn't be has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on my definition of what my slave is. Neither, for that matter, does my definition matter one whit to what any of you might define it as being... unless of course you're a submissive lass looking to become my slave. You can tell me I'm doing it all wrong all day long, point to your history books, your dictionaries, your autographed copy of Guy Baldwin's Slavecraft or your complete set of Gor novels and I'll still laugh at you and keep right on doing it my way. That's my perrogative... and in fact its the perrogative of every dominant, male or female, regardless of whether they style themselves a Dom, Domme, Master, Mistress, Lord God on High or whatever. If my way isn't working for me... that's my problem. If your way isn't working for you, that's your problem. If you like something about what I do, I'll be happy to discuss it with you. I might even ask you about something you do that I find intriguing. But ultimately the only definition of a slave that matters worth one damn in this lifestyle is what that slave's dominant says it is. You want to start a whole thread to debate definitions and ideas of what a slave should be, could be, might be, used to be... go right ahead. Nothing wrong with a good academic debate. But lose the hostility, stop attaching your ego to your ideas, and just discuss those ideas for what they are... concepts. But so far as a thread where someone asked a question about balance, about trying to figure out what she should do in a particular situation... you people completely missed the boat on this one. Someone asked for help and you tried to tell them how to build a damn life boat. End Rant

amayos -> RE: Balance (1/13/2006 4:58:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aurora31 Thank you for all the responses but I did not intend this thread to become another sub vs slave thread. Rather I was looking for tips on how to balance the need with in me to serve with the need to maintain some personal boundries. I am not owned at this time but I have been in some very detailed talks with a Dom. Who understands that I am still pretty new, that I have a strong desire to become slave and that I am not close to being there at this point. Who also understands that it will take much time trust and hard work for me to get there. I realize at this point in time I still maintain the right to say no. But even now the desire to please to give all of me no matter what is very strong. Due to this desire many of what I originally percieved as limits are no longer limits and my list of limits is really very short. The two obvious ones that we can't metion here, breath play, rape play,water sports, and scat. Now that does not mean there aren't still alot of things out there that I have not tried yet and that scare the hell out of me but they are things that given time and trust that I will do for my futere Dom/Master who ever he may be. My question still remains though how do I balance my over whelming desire to serve to please to be able to do "anything" he asks of me with maintaning my own limits. How do I make sure that in my desire to please that I do not do something that will later come back to haunt me aurora Disclaimer the anything does not refer to jumping of bridges or commiting murder or similar acts. Indeed, the entire thread has wandered off course, and I'm afraid my simple reply to your question was more than what some could bear to leave standing on its own. It was not my intent to cause a firestorm, but I guess it's good to see that people are strong in their beliefs, and most can articulate them quite well. As I said originally, if a Master values his girl, he will weigh her limit with his desire. If he is noble, he will respect his girl's limits. It is well and good that you want to please him so much, but of course you should keep in mind that sound and pleasurable service isn't a constant menu of bumping against limits. When they do rear themselves, you ultimately have to make a choice, just as your Master does; is your limit worth breaking for the love you have for your Master? Further discussion about how to balance your limits is difficult without details of those limits.

amayos -> RE: Balance (1/13/2006 5:03:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag Begin Rant To everyone else, all the debates about subs vs slaves, what is a slave, etc... I've seen these arguments go round and round for more than a decade. In that time do you know what I've seen them accomplish? Just two things. One, both sides of any of those debates walked away more convinced they were right and the other side was wrong. Second, most new submissives came away more confused than when they started. So you tell me, what's the damn point? If all your accomplishing is stroking your own ego and confusing some submissives out there what have you really accomplished... and was it worth it? You want to know what a slave is... fine... here's an irrefutable definition. MY slave is whatever I say she is... period. Your definitions of what a slave is, or what the dictionary says, or historical examples there of, or hypothetical discussions of what they should or shouldn't be has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on my definition of what my slave is. Neither, for that matter, does my definition matter one whit to what any of you might define it as being... unless of course you're a submissive lass looking to become my slave. You can tell me I'm doing it all wrong all day long, point to your history books, your dictionaries, your autographed copy of Guy Baldwin's Slavecraft or your complete set of Gor novels and I'll still laugh at you and keep right on doing it my way. That's my perrogative... and in fact its the perrogative of every dominant, male or female, regardless of whether they style themselves a Dom, Domme, Master, Mistress, Lord God on High or whatever. If my way isn't working for me... that's my problem. If your way isn't working for you, that's your problem. If you like something about what I do, I'll be happy to discuss it with you. I might even ask you about something you do that I find intriguing. But ultimately the only definition of a slave that matters worth one damn in this lifestyle is what that slave's dominant says it is. You want to start a whole thread to debate definitions and ideas of what a slave should be, could be, might be, used to be... go right ahead. Nothing wrong with a good academic debate. But lose the hostility, stop attaching your ego to your ideas, and just discuss those ideas for what they are... concepts. But so far as a thread where someone asked a question about balance, about trying to figure out what she should do in a particular situation... you people completely missed the boat on this one. Someone asked for help and you tried to tell them how to build a damn life boat. End Rant You know, you're not helping us get past the subject with another rant. I think you sum it up nice, but drop it, please.

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