RE: Balance (Full Version)

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Noah -> RE: Balance (1/14/2006 10:57:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aurora31

Lets say there is something that a sub/slave considers a very hard limit for what ever the reason may be (emotional, psychological, moral,to extreme). Lets say this sub/slaves Dom/Master really ejoys this activity. He/she is willing to forgo this activity becuase it causes said sub/slave so much distress. But he/she still brings the subject up often hoping to desensitize the sub/slave to this activity in hopes that she may some day be ok with it. The sub/slave very much wants to please her Dom/Master yet can't get past this.

Where does the sub/slave draw the line. How does the sub/slave balance the need to want to please with her own personal limitations? Can said sub/slave say this will never happen especially if he/she progresses to status of slave.

aurora


What I see as most troubling in the situation aurora31 seems to describe is that it might resemble a case of the Cookie Cutter Phenomenon.

Some people seem to come here looking for something which fits their mold rather than for a real, whole person with whom to engage. A three dimensional being with a full complement of attributes ranging from glorious to unfortunate, perhaps.

I hope that this isn't the case with aurora31's partner and the evidence presented surely wouldn't support such a conclusion. I hope and trust that they will find their way through this.

I think that a submissive in the position aurora31 describes will have to be a little bit brave--or a lot brave maybe. At a point only she can choose she will need to confront her partner in a manner appropriate to their own special relationship.

Confrontation is a harsh word in some ears but I will use the word because we are talking about a difficut thing.

Yes, to udertake this confrontation might involve some negative emotions on her part insofar as she It might involve some negative emotions for him too, but we shouldn't assume this. There can however be a wonderful silver lining here for the submissive/dominant pair who choose to see it and rigorously avoid the temptation to employ it manipulatively. Here's what I'm talking about with the silver lining.

It is, it has to be, it seems to me, a significant act of trust for the submissive to bring this issue back to her partner, unless it is mere manipulation and aurora31 seems not the sort to be taking that tack. She might well have some fear regarding the confrontation. Proceeding with fear is the best definition I know for bravery. A wise dominant should be able to appreciate his partner's fear and appreciate the bravery displayed by her in proceeding in the face of her fear. He should be able to appreciate the trust she is showing. This, roughly, is trust in him that he will respond to the whole person (the submissive) who is addressing the problem and not just respond to the "bad news", so to speak.

If she brings this to him not at all as a cop-out but with utter integrity then any disappointment he may feel (though let's not presume what his reaction may be since we don't know what his motivations were in the first place) ... any disappointment he may feel can be balanced to a greater or lesser degree by pride in his submissive's bravery and integrity, and even pride in himself that he has inspired the sort of trust which makes this transaction possible.

Hopefully, these deep emotional rewards can be valued as highly as the rewards of whatever kind of play or interaction may be ruled out by the hard limit.

It has to be noted that one possible outcome of such a confrontation would be the eventual dissolution of the relationship stemming from a difference in values revealed by each person's orientation to the limited activity. If things dissolve over this matter it needn't mean that either party behaved badly; it might indicate a fundamentally unacceptable difference between the parties.

One would hope though that if the limited activity is fairly narrow (e.g. needle play or face-slapping) that the difference could be worked around. If the limited activity is very broad such that invoking the limit rules out a whole range of activities (e.g. third parties) then only the two partners can decide if they want to permanently ask/offer the relatively large amount of sacrifice that this limit entails for their partner.

Good luck, aurora!





Noah -> RE: Balance (1/14/2006 11:32:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

And it simply isn't the case that no value is gained until all parties agree. Clarity propagates one mind at a time.


I'm not sure how you intended that comment, but it sounded eerily Borgish to me.


Well as Dyslexic-of-Borg famously said:

"Resistance is futile. Your ass will be laminated."



cloudboy -> RE: Balance (1/14/2006 10:52:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A submissive holds power to refuse.
A slave does not.



Nothing new to say, I see.



MistressSassy66 -> RE: Balance (1/15/2006 1:19:00 AM)

After a Hard limit has been established its a hard limit no questions asked.

If you do some research and decide you WANT to try it go for it.

If you have doubts that your Dominant wont respect you as the sub/slave that they care for and stop when you say "red" if needed dont do anything your not comfortable with.


Safe,Sane,Consensual are the 3 best words of advice I can give.



amayos -> RE: Balance (1/15/2006 9:40:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A submissive holds power to refuse.
A slave does not.



Nothing new to say, I see.


And I see you are still brooding.

Ciao.



amayos -> RE: Balance (1/15/2006 9:44:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

"Resistance is futile. Your ass will be laminated."



Haha.



Noah -> RE: Balance (1/15/2006 10:00:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSassy66

After a Hard limit has been established its a hard limit no questions asked.

If you do some research and decide you WANT to try it go for it.


Isn't research basically a matter of seeking answers to questions?



LadyKim -> RE: Balance (1/15/2006 10:09:12 PM)

aurora31,

Pushing limits is a fine line. If a submissive indicates that a specific activity is a HARD LIMIT, then it is to be respected. If the dominant continues to push the issue because it is something he or she loves to do, then flat out tell the dominant you understand it is an activity he or she enjoys; however, you have already indicated to him or her that YOU will not be participating in that activity. Let the dominant know that the continual discussion on the topic bothers you, and if you HAPPEN to change your mind in the future then the dominant will be the first to know. Then ask him or her to stop bringing it up.

Good luck,
MzKim



BitaTruble -> RE: Balance (1/15/2006 10:47:22 PM)

quote:

Lets say there is something that a sub/slave considers a very hard limit for what ever the reason may be (emotional, psychological, moral,to extreme). Lets say this sub/slaves Dom/Master really ejoys this activity. He/she is willing to forgo this activity becuase it causes said sub/slave so much distress. But he/she still brings the subject up often hoping to desensitize the sub/slave to this activity in hopes that she may some day be ok with it. The sub/slave very much wants to please her Dom/Master yet can't get past this.

Where does the sub/slave draw the line. How does the sub/slave balance the need to want to please with her own personal limitations? Can said sub/slave say this will never happen especially if he/she progresses to status of slave.

aurora


I've read all the answers regarding this post and something which has been overlooked, but which I believe is very pertinent has yet to be addressed. You state that 'whatever the reason' for the limit and then go on to list what some of those reasons may be. To my view, the 'reason' for the refusal needs to be the very first thing looked at when assessing the situation. If a sub OR slave is refusing on moral grounds, then, IMO, they need to reevalute their morals as long as the subject lays within the realm of adult consent. Such a refusal, whether from a submissive or a slave doesn't hold water. If the refusal is based on medical reasons, then, catagorically, it's a no, period... whether that person is sub or slave. I am a slave, but I have some medically based limits that regardless of Masters desires just can't be done, period. Refusal because something is too extreme.. that one should have been discussed prior to becoming the slave or submissive of someone in the first place. If both parties agreed it was a limit prior to getting together, both parties need to uphold that agreement since you get together based on the word of honor of each party. Refusal for a pychological reason should be dealt with by a professional, whether one is submissive or slave. The mind is delicate and shadowing is best left to the professionals. Whether one is slave or submissive, the reason behind the refusal is what matters, not the particular orientation of the person in question.

Don't know if that helped, but I felt it important that it be pointed out.

Celeste



MistressAlexaS -> RE: Balance (1/18/2006 7:41:49 PM)

As far as I'm concerned a limit is a limit and a good Dominant will leave it alone. You have to care about your subs mental state and if your constantly bringing up an uncomfortable subject your just trying to push them into doing something that they don't want too. There's a difference between being dominant and just a pushy jerk/jerkette.
Slaves have the right to say no too, this isnt a 3rd world country where they will be taken out and killed if they say no. Sure you can say obey or leave and if your pushing the slave into something you both agreed not to in a contract, then you as a dominant need to rexamine whether you should be owning a slave in the first place. If you can't keep your word how is there to be trust? and if you don't have trust these relationships mean nothing.

~Alexa



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