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Balance - 1/12/2006 5:30:50 PM   
aurora31


Posts: 266
Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline 		Lets say there is something that a sub/slave considers a very hard limit for what ever the reason may be (emotional, psychological, moral,to extreme). Lets say this sub/slaves Dom/Master really ejoys this activity. He/she is willing to forgo this activity becuase it causes said sub/slave so much distress. But he/she still brings the subject up often hoping to desensitize the sub/slave to this activity in hopes that she may some day be ok with it. The sub/slave very much wants to please her Dom/Master yet can't get past this.

Where does the sub/slave draw the line. How does the sub/slave balance the need to want to please with her own personal limitations? Can said sub/slave say this will never happen especially if he/she progresses to status of slave.

aurora
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 5:47:58 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline 		A submissive holds power to refuse.
A slave does not.

If the submissive cannot bring herself to submit to a desire, her responsibility is to communicate this as clearly as possible. If the dominant values his girl, he will weigh her refusal with his desire. Which is more important? I would say the submissive (if she is a good submissive)—not the desire.




(in reply to aurora31)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 5:51:04 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A submissive holds power to refuse.
A slave does not.



IMHEO, a human being has the right to refuse anything.


_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 5:54:52 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A submissive holds power to refuse.
A slave does not.



IMHEO, a human being has the right to refuse anything.



A human being? Sure. A human being, made a slave? Nay.

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:08:12 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline 		i am not a slave and have no desire to be so - i do not think it a dynamic that would work positively with my - personality/spirit. that said, i am a submissive of definite opinion.

i once thought the idea of needle play was too extreme, too gross, and it was not just a hard limit - it was a hell-no, not in this lifetime limit. while dating with intent, the dominant wanted to do ths - he has medical background and, i think, a fascination for needles. so, one night, i was bound, by the time we were finished, i did indeed have a number of needles in a semi-decorative pattern on my breasts. (okay, i know - tmi, but i have to say enough to make the point). i was in a position where i could see myself in a mirror - it was the coolest thing ever. it did not hurt, i did not bleed, and it looked awesome. Would i strike needle play of my hard-limits list - probably not. with someone who also has medical experience perhaps i'd do it again if he wanted to; with someone who has no experience but wants to use me as a pin coushin - we'd be back to the no-way-in-hell limit.

sometimes, it is possible that if there is sufficient trust in one's partner, you will find you will do things, surrender to him in such a way that you you things you'd never thought possible. i do not belive that type of trust and subsequent surrender is possible until there is *knowing* of another, until there is established trust. it will not happen overnight - it will not happen for a time - but the time is dependent upon those involved in the relationship - there is no D/s playbook that says you must do x at this time and immediately pass to the next level - it's not a board game where you win prizes for finishing first.

that said, i do have some limits that concern health and safety that i would not break regardless and to be asked to do so would mean it is time for me to reconsider the relationship. to be asked over and over - it's definitely time to go. i would see it not as repeated requests, but as nagging, an attempt to wear down my defenses, a distinct lack of respect and consideration for me. that said, i do not have limits without specific reasons for them - even if the reason is sheer unaduterated terror. in the past, i have found that some limits based on fear can be overcome with trust - some of them.

ultimately, you must choose a partner who has compatible needs and desires. i give blood frequently; i have no fear of needles and just thought it was icky and i was afriad. if i were traumatized by the thought of needles, it would have been a different matter entirely.

when you are new, i do not think you can hear too many times that YOU need to choose a partner who is compatible with you as a person, who has compatible desires and wants. while this does not mean that the two of you will agree on everything, there seems no point in submitting to someone who like fireplay when you were burned as a child and the very thought gives you nightmares or they like extreme, edgy painful things when you don't have any masochistic tendencies. over time, you will trust your partner enough to try new activities, but he will trust and respect your judgement enough to understand that you may have areas that are very difficult and it will take time, if ever, for you to engage in such play.

where do you draw the line - in the beginning, in initial communication. say what you mean, be yourself, be true to yourself, be honest. do not say maybe when the answer is no. if you are not honest in the beginning, it will set the stage for a relationship doomed to fail. do not allow yourself to be so caught up in the moent - omg - the domly prince charmly is finally here, i can't day no or he will leave and i'll never find another - yes, you can say no; yes, you will find another. do not settle than what you know to be best for you.

newflowers

(in reply to aurora31)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:17:39 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A submissive holds power to refuse.
A slave does not.



IMHEO, a human being has the right to refuse anything.



A human being? Sure. A human being, made a slave? Nay.

Not being a slave, having no interest in being one, or owning one, my opinion may be of little use here.

But seriously...someone who has (presumably) voluntarily become a "slave" no longer has any rights whatsoever?

Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse?

Or (to paraphrase from my mother) if mistress/master says, "Jump off a bridge," slave must do it?

I realize that many, many people are much more serious about this lifestyle than I am, but this just seems way over the top.

Tasha


_____________________________


"Sex without love is an empty experience. But as empty experiences go, it's one of the better ones."...Woody Allen

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:23:09 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A submissive holds power to refuse.
A slave does not.



IMHEO, a human being has the right to refuse anything.



A human being? Sure. A human being, made a slave? Nay.



at the end of the day there is still a human being and to think otherwise is well--IMHO foolhardy for slavery does indeed not exist except in the mind and heart and it is in the mind and heart that one breaks free--

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:25:21 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse?


No, i think you miss or misinterpret the concept of the Master/slave dynamic. There are others better able to explain this that i - and i will leave it to them. A responsible master would never ask such a think and a slave could indeed refuse were a request/command to be illegal or life endangering.

newflowers

(in reply to tasha_tart)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:29:53 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers

quote:

Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse?


No, i think you miss or misinterpret the concept of the Master/slave dynamic. There are others better able to explain this that i - and i will leave it to them. A responsible master would never ask such a think and a slave could indeed refuse were a request/command to be illegal or life endangering.

newflowers



But the world is filled with a mix of responsible and unresponsible, those that can say no and those that so desparately need identity they will follow--hence a suicide bomber-- what are they in actuality?? a slave to a political cause--Jim Jones, a master who asked his slaves for the ultimate--

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 1/12/2006 6:45:14 PM >

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:37:41 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

But the world is filled with a mix of responsible and unresponsible, those thay can say no and those that so desparately need identity they will follow--hence a suicide bomber-- what are they in actuality?? a slave to a political cause--Jim Jones, a master who asked his slaves for the ultimate--


yes, there are those who are irresponsible and so desperate for an identity that they would go too far - however, i do not think that the norm nor do i think it an example of a M/s relationship.

newflowers

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:38:33 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

But seriously...someone who has (presumably) voluntarily become a "slave" no longer has any rights whatsoever?


No, once you become a slave, you transfer those rights to your owner.

quote:

Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse?


Since no responsible Master would EVER do such a thing, this kind of situation would never arise.

quote:

Or (to paraphrase from my mother) if mistress/master says, "Jump off a bridge," slave must do it?


Once again, no RESPONSIBLE Master would ever try to harm his/her property in such a way, so the situation would never arise.

quote:

But the world is filled with a mix of responsible and unresponsible, those thay can say no and those that so desparately need identity they will follow--hence a suicide bomber-- what are they in actuality?? a slave to a political cause--Jim Jones, a master who asked his slaves for the ultimate--


yes, sadly there are those out there that do abuse their so called "Master" status. They are not Masters, they are nothing more than abusers; and those whom they own are victims. Victims, have a choice. Slaves do not.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to tasha_tart)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:46:59 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers

quote:

But the world is filled with a mix of responsible and unresponsible, those thay can say no and those that so desparately need identity they will follow--hence a suicide bomber-- what are they in actuality?? a slave to a political cause--Jim Jones, a master who asked his slaves for the ultimate--


yes, there are those who are irresponsible and so desperate for an identity that they would go too far - however, i do not think that the norm nor do i think it an example of a M/s relationship.

newflowers



It is not the "pure" example of the M/s relationships we would like to think of, but they exist.

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 6:58:31 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers

quote:

Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse?


No, i think you miss or misinterpret the concept of the Master/slave dynamic. There are others better able to explain this that i - and i will leave it to them. A responsible master would never ask such a think and a slave could indeed refuse were a request/command to be illegal or life endangering.

newflowers


On the contrary, I think I have a reasonable grasp (at least for a layperson) of the Master /slave dynamic. I know slaves, and their owners in the offline world.

I understand that if Master orders slave to sleep naked on the floor, that is a reasonable order within the context of the relationship. But ordering slave to sleep naked in the express lanes of a freeway is not.

I would question the sanity of the person who would order that, and the sanity of someone who would not refuse it.

However the poster to whom I was replying (quoted again below) seems very clearly to expect that that order would be obeyed. Indeed the poster seems to believe that the concept of "refusal" does not even exist in a Master/slave relationship.

I don't think I "misinterpret(ed)" those words.

Tasha



quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A submissive holds power to refuse.
A slave does not.



IMHEO, a human being has the right to refuse anything.



A human being? Sure. A human being, made a slave? Nay.



_____________________________


"Sex without love is an empty experience. But as empty experiences go, it's one of the better ones."...Woody Allen

(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 7:14:19 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

But seriously...someone who has (presumably) voluntarily become a "slave" no longer has any rights whatsoever?


No, once you become a slave, you transfer those rights to your owner.

Yes, I understand that, but the slave can revoke that transfer, and end the relationship.

quote:

Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse?


Since no responsible Master would EVER do such a thing, this kind of situation would never arise.

Are you saying there are no irresponsible Masters? Are there no Masters who have, or may develop, a mental or personality disorder?

quote:

Or (to paraphrase from my mother) if mistress/master says, "Jump off a bridge," slave must do it?


Once again, no RESPONSIBLE Master would ever try to harm his/her property in such a way, so the situation would never arise.

quote:

But the world is filled with a mix of responsible and unresponsible, those thay can say no and those that so desparately need identity they will follow--hence a suicide bomber-- what are they in actuality?? a slave to a political cause--Jim Jones, a master who asked his slaves for the ultimate--


yes, sadly there are those out there that do abuse their so called "Master" status. They are not Masters, they are nothing more than abusers; and those whom they own are victims. Victims, have a choice. Slaves do not.


The world is full of abusers. To declare that abusers cannot be Masters, ergo Masters cannot be abusers...and that victims have a choice, slaves have no choice, therefore slaves cannot be victims...seem to be circular arguments.

An abuser who can convince his victim that she is slave, and He is Master...and that she has zero rights of any sort, and never will have....hmmm...you're right...that could never happen.

Tasha


_____________________________


"Sex without love is an empty experience. But as empty experiences go, it's one of the better ones."...Woody Allen

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 7:17:54 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		This is partly why I don't have "soft" limits or grey areas- it just lets this thrive. If something is a limit then it's a limit. Sure we all have areas we grow on, but if it has been clearly stated up front that this is simply a HARD limit, and after even a few times remains an issue of tension, it really should be respected.

If the dom can't uphold his promise not to go there, then he isn't respecting his own word, the submissives sense of security or the relationship they form together.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to aurora31)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 7:28:04 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		A slave still has a functioning brain that is not physically connected to the Master/Mistress. No matter what the Master/Mistress orders the slave to think and feel, the slave is able to think and feel differently. To say that a slave has no ability or power to say no is ridiculous. Their brain and muscles being intact and functioning completely negates that concept.

The slave can agree to the Master/Mistress' limits as his/her own. The Master/Mistress can make the slave do things that they may have thought were past their previous limits, but if they do them, they weren't that much of a limit. Ultimately, if the Master/Mistress pushes hard enough and far enough, they are going to come across something that the slave will absolutely refuse to do, even if that limit is death, all human beings have limits, and regardless of how some Master/Mistress' treat their slaves ALL SLAVES ARE HUMAN BEINGS worthy and deserving of life.

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to tasha_tart)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 7:35:15 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline 		A submissive has the right to use a safeword if they feel they can not do something.
A Dominant has the right to throw the submissive to the curb if they feel the submissive uses its safeword too often.

A slave has no safeword to use.
If a slave feels they need to cross the line between slave and submissive then they need to evaluate why they have the limit and re-evaluate why they submitted to the title of slave in the first place.

< Message edited by ZenrageTheKeeper -- 1/12/2006 7:40:17 PM >

(in reply to aurora31)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 7:38:59 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

A submissive has the right to use a safeword if they feel they can not do something.
A Dominant has the right to throw the submissive to the curb if they feel the submissive uses its safeword too often.




If the sub finds they use the safeword too much there may be a lack of respect from the Dominant--the sub too has the right to throw the Dom to the curb

and btw they are humans not garbage.

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 7:45:53 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

If a slave feels they need to cross the line between slave and submissive then they need to evaluate why they have the limit and re-evaluate why they submitted to the title of slave in the first place.


Agreed; you seem to have stated it better than I was trying to.

Tasha


_____________________________


"Sex without love is an empty experience. But as empty experiences go, it's one of the better ones."...Woody Allen

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Balance - 1/12/2006 7:48:40 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tasha_tart


But seriously...someone who has (presumably) voluntarily become a "slave" no longer has any rights whatsoever?

Just so I'm sure I understand your position...if master/mistress hands slave a gun and orders slave to kill someone, slave cannot refuse?

Or (to paraphrase from my mother) if mistress/master says, "Jump off a bridge," slave must do it?

I realize that many, many people are much more serious about this lifestyle than I am, but this just seems way over the top.

Tasha[/color][/size][/font]



I can understand your point of view, but slave is a level few reach...if you take the term as literally as I do.

(in reply to tasha_tart)
Profile   Post #: 20
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