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RE: Race - 2/1/2009 5:01:46 AM

LaTigresse

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Not to mention someone with a burr in their butt imagining some slight because of their own issues, other people jumping in with a "hey yeah!" Someone else actually GOT the intention or if not, the fact that either way, in the big picture, it doesn't really matter, and defend the initial words, tell people they need to chill. Then the defenders of the offended jump in and........

you have a free for all screaming match that Madame Eleven, or one of her trusty side kicks, has to jump in.

And the thread gets locked with NOTHING positive having come of it.

Because both sides, with injured sensibilities, walk away with their own personal predjudices confirmed because of the bad behaviour exibited on both sides.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 2/1/2009 5:02:45 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 5:25:58 AM

Termyn8or

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You're probably right Raech, people really do take these things in a certain pre-ordained context. Like certain other issues people are polarized and there are no words that can get through, because words themselves are the problem.

Anyway, I am not going to start another thread on this soon, people are not yet ready. The dog analogy is valid. People cannot accept it on a personal level because they are not secure enough in their own mind to do so, to step back and see something that's not so pretty.

It's like a mantra, we are all the same under the skin. Orientals can't make the "R" sound properly because we are all the same. Blacks get sickle cell anemia because we are all the same. No amount of factual evidence can challenge that. Need I cite more examples ?

I can find them, believe me. But no matter what I find, any discussion of our differences is somehow not acceptable to some people. Well that situation is unacceptable to this person. We have not truly learned our way out of the tribal/fuedalistic days until we can have a rational discussion about it without hawks circling our head crying "BIGOT, RACIST, HATER.

While they advertise right on TV that high cholesterol can be caused by heredity, about seven years ago some reasearchers came up with a preventative drug, for a specific race of people. For fuck's sake they were trying to help people. They were shunned by the medical community.

What I am trying to say is to ignore these facts is indeed ignorance of the first degree.

There is one thing for sure, if such a discussion cannot be held in this forum because you all are not ready, those among the most enlightened and open minded people I have run across in a long time, it certainly can't be discussed anywhere else. I guess I have my answer.

When I go looking for something to eat later, I will not be looking for raw fish, octopus or alphalpha sprouts. Nor will I be looking for rice and beans. I will not be looking for that white stuff they dip the pita bread in nor will I be looking for bugs or other people to eat. Why ? Because it is not what kept MY forefathers alive. But we can't talk about that.

We can't even talk about preerences in food because we are all the same under the skin. We can't talk about scientific studies that only benefit certain races because we are all the same under the skin.

I got it. Fine. I'll try again in a couple of years, maybe SOMEONE by then can discuss these matters without the politically correct war song.

T

(in reply to Raechard)

Post #: 22

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 5:28:29 AM

colouredin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

There is one thing for sure, if such a discussion cannot be held in this forum because you all are not ready, those among the most enlightened and open minded people I have run across in a long time, it certainly can't be discussed anywhere else. I guess I have my answer.

Oh dont worry my love eventually we will all be as enlightened as you.

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Post #: 23

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 5:28:54 AM

JustDarkness

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good points also Termyn8or
we will wait a few years :)

sometimes differences are not negative...and we can learn from them or just enjoy all the different habbits and cultures.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 2/1/2009 5:30:33 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 24

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 6:22:34 AM

Termyn8or

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coloured, that is taken well, as there is just a bit of snarkiness in my last post. No problem.

JustD, I relish these differences. I like being around people different than me. One day, when everybody is really the same, I will be among the grateful dead, and I don't mean the rock band.

T

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 25

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 7:11:43 AM

Hippiekinkster

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From: Liechtenstein
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Oh, boy.

Who says orientals can't make the "r" sound? I have a Japanese couple renting my townhouse, and he says "contracto" just fine.

Sickle cell is a survival trait found in people whose genes come from areas of high incidence of malaria. Mediterranean people can carry the genes for it.

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(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 26

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 8:17:28 AM

Raechard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
It's like a mantra, we are all the same under the skin. Orientals can't make the "R" sound properly because we are all the same.

Jonathon Ross can't make the R sounds either, I thought that had more to do with nurture.

quote:

Blacks get sickle cell anemia because we are all the same. No amount of factual evidence can challenge that.

I've just created a new race of human beings to describe all the people that suffer from peanut allergy

quote:

While they advertise right on TV that high cholesterol can be caused by heredity, about seven years ago some reasearchers came up with a preventative drug, for a specific race of people. For fuck's sake they were trying to help people. They were shunned by the medical community.

Cholesterol can be prevented by healthy eating, some companies like to avoid their social responsibility in terms of providing healthy food by funding miscience. If you eat healthily you aren’t going to suffer from cholesterol no matter what your genetic makeup. The crap that gets stuck to your arteries can be traced directly to the things you consume.

Similarly, recently scientists conducted studies and found obesity could be caught like the common cold because there is this virus doing the rounds with the sole purpose of duplicating our fat cells for us. It probably exists but how common is it and who is asking this question when healthy eating is a known cure for obesity?

quote:

There is one thing for sure, if such a discussion cannot be held in this forum because you all are not ready, those among the most enlightened and open minded people I have run across in a long time, it certainly can't be discussed anywhere else. I guess I have my answer.

I had a debate about discussion and debate and came to the conclusion that it was rare that anyone would dismiss their own beliefs and adopt those of a total stranger no matter how convincing the arguments put forward. How convincing an argument is can even be open to interpretation, we all think our arguments are convincing.

quote:

When I go looking for something to eat later, I will not be looking for raw fish, octopus or alphalpha sprouts. Nor will I be looking for rice and beans. I will not be looking for that white stuff they dip the pita bread in nor will I be looking for bugs or other people to eat. Why ? Because it is not what kept MY forefathers alive. But we can't talk about that.

Variety is the spice of life and eating in the modern era doesn't have to be about survival. People can be proud of their heritage but I think we should always look at our heritage honestly; the good and the bad.

quote:

We can't even talk about preerences in food because we are all the same under the skin. We can't talk about scientific studies that only benefit certain races because we are all the same under the skin.

There are genetic differences in all human beings some have common genetic traits that could be catered for by specialist treatments, I'm sure. I'm not really into debating what the word 'race' means because when all is said and done it's semantics and people will use words to convey ideas no matter what the exact technical meaning of those words. The human race? Racists should be reclassified ethnicists? Or have we decided on ethnicitsts?

< Message edited by Raechard -- 2/1/2009 8:25:50 AM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 8:25:39 AM

Aynne88

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Joined: 8/29/2008
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It's Asian, not Oriental for starters. Asian=people. Oreintal=food and furniture.

I have been married and divorced from one native born Asian, he never had an issue with the pronunciation of english at all, came here at 11. It is called perserverance, acclimation and wanting to not be made fun of by racists.

Currently * and forever owned by an Asian Master, no soft palate issues with any english, including the pronunciation of R's. Where do you people get this shit?

Sorry Raechard, this was not for you, just a general reply.

< Message edited by Aynne88 -- 2/1/2009 8:26:24 AM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 8:41:41 AM

corysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I read somewhere that most people are just comfortable being around people like themselves.
That makes sense.
They said that you really see it in the way people worship.
"Black" churches, "White" churches etc.
I always wanted to go to a "Black" church just to hear the music.

The women. the problem with white churches is that the pews are filled with flat asses.

Gosh... a "flat ass bigot"!! Why do you hate people with flat asses. Would you hire a woman with a flat ass? Are you "flatassphobic".... shame....SHAME!!

By the way, I think people do feel comfortable with their own kind...with family, friends and acquaintences...but that is also subject to where you live. I was raised in NYC which is made up of thousands of ghetto's...Italian, Jewish, Irish, Latino, Black, Yellow...and colors I never knew exited. Heck..until I went to High School I thought everyone was an Italian catholic! Other people who live in Utah, for example, probably believe everyone is shiny white, a Mormon, and people of color are "interesting"...and maybe meet one someday.

What race really is...in my opinion... is THE trump card for politicians who divide and conquer by categorizing people and pandering to one group pitting one against the other. . Race probably takes second place to "class" in a polticians arsenal of weapons tp win elections, followed only by gender, religion, and sexual orientation.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 29

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 8:49:31 AM

YoursMistress

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There are near infinite ways to categorize people, by gender, nation of origin, sexual orientation, religion, etc... Some of those categorizations can be based in "fact", that is one can specifically identify gene markers that differentiate one from another. Others are based upon choices, and cannot really truly be verified (can you prove that I believe in God or not just because I say it). I think that the drive to label or characterize people is mostly an expediency to enable one to make an assessment, perhaps fear-based, without having to really get to know a person. It is certainly not practical to know EVERYONE. However, how important is it really to have a ready-made model for how to expect someone to act based upon a perceived characteristic? In the end, people will do what they do.

We all share two things for certain here on this earth. One, we are all human beings, homo sapiens, separate from all other species on the orb. Second, we are all individuals, different from each other unique person in the world. Any additional characterization or grouping of people is arbitrary, and likely having some exceptions.

yours

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As a rule, I don't like to make general statements.

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Post #: 30

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 8:54:09 AM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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Termy, what do you hope to accomplish this time that you didn't in any of the previous threads you've made on this subject?

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Post #: 31

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 11:28:08 AM

DesertRat

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Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Who says orientals can't make the "r" sound? I have a Japanese couple renting my townhouse, and he says "contracto" just fine.

Sickle cell is a survival trait found in people whose genes come from areas of high incidence of malaria. Mediterranean people can carry the genes for it.

Eggzackly! If only one parent carries the gene, you inherit half the trait and have somewhat sickloid red blood cells and a significant amount of resistance to malaria. If both parents have the gene, you might be immune to malaria but you're extremely likely to have full-blown sicklemia.

To no one in particular: Humans are a species not a race and diversity within the species is most rationally discussed in terms of population groups and degrees of statistical variation from a predefined datum point. A cline, it's called. At least, that's my understanding but my anthropological expertise lies mostly in the realm of archaeology.

"Race", as the term is used in late-night, fifth-pitcher bar room debates, is a reference to subgroups defined by whomever is holding forth. The instigator of such a "discussion" will often define himself or herself as singularly open-minded as a result of a unique background and upbringing while the rest of us are characterized as being blind to our own prejudices. If we resist enlightenment, it proves how bigoted and dumb we are.

Bob

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Post #: 32

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 12:44:35 PM

Termyn8or

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So maybe it's just a word ,,,,,,, that strikes fear ?

What if Raech invented a new "race" of people based on their physical intolerance to peanuts ? What if it was found that this new "race" consisted chiefly of people with a certain lineage ? Would it not be prudent to warn people of a similar lineage to either avoid peanuts, or at least be on the lookout for possible reactions ?

Nope, it would be politically incorrect, and THAT is the crux of the matter.

T

(in reply to DesertRat)

Post #: 33

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 1:16:39 PM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I completely understand your idealist projectrion that there is no such thing as race, but that is what it is. While I agree that we are all part of the human race, I also agree that a dog is a dog. Some shun this type of analogy, but bear with me.

A labrobdor is a dog. A terrier is a dog. A shepherd is a dog. A spaniel is a dog. They can breed. They are not usually inherently violent toward those of other breeds, except maybe pitbulls or whatever that only eat gunpowder and barbed wire and such.

I hope this helped.

T

Great analogy. Every single breed of dog is descended from the wolf. Hope this helped.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 34

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 1:29:42 PM

came4U

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From: London, Ontario
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I guess Term is asking if racism is caused by a fear of another group because of their differences??

It could be that, I still have no clue and I am olllddddd. lol

My ex husband was American, and since I was young and dumb and knew very little about him when we married I found out soonafter just how racist and bigotted he actually was.

As newlyweds we purchased a newly built home, wouldn't ya know it months later a black family built one right beside ours. Oh gods, it was endless, his ranting. Him and his buddies actually went over on those ATV's and tore up this neighbor guy's freshly laid grass (amoung other things to harass the family). UUhhhg I could have dieeeeeed from the shock of it all.

I had no idea people could be like that. I didn't know why or how a grown man can hate someone just because of their color. I guess you could say it was the first time I saw something of this sort and it was quite confusing. I didn't understand how some normal black family can cause such disruption to him. I was disgusted at his behavior yet was prohibited to even apologize. I wasn't afraid of 'them'. To me, they were people, nothing more, nothing less.

I was also not allowed to watch the tv if blacks were on it. Like wtf??? If I was watching The Cosby show and he was pulling up the driveway, I had to change the channel and real fasssst. He announced that no black man will ever be on his brand new 51 inch tv.

I didn't get that either.

He was from Cleveland, he mentioned this, that and the other about growing up around 'these people', still I didn't know what he meant so it all went over my head. I think we had one black girl in highschool, she was ok, never knew her well (in passing or to borrow notes) nor did anyone give her extra notice or lack of as far as I could tell.

I do think it is fear though, for the first and only time I saw my husband lose control and act like a total scatterbrain (and it wasn't pretty) and only fear can do that to a jerk like that. Why he was afraid is something I will never understand and frankly if I never see anything like that in my lifetime I would consider myself blessed.

*edit to add: I am ashamed of what he did, but simply had no clue, mentally or socially how to cope with someone like that. I did speak up, yet if and when I did, imagine what I got for it. So, the onus is on him to prove his own worth at his time of reckonning, which I doubt will prove worthy enough to pass any gates except the ones that will burn his hands.

edit 2: Hey! Just found this article from today's news, interesting.
Toronto's answer to Obama
Black mayor broke racial barrier a century ago
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/02/01/8225866-sun.html

< Message edited by came4U -- 2/1/2009 2:28:06 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 35

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 4:12:58 PM

Maya2001

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From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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Comparing dog breed to human race does not work

In humans race does not affect ability or function nor does it provide certain races qreater skills or alter their core personalities

take a greyhound /sighthound .. a breed that has been around since biblical times and has not really changed since that time, it is dog capable of great speed but it's energy is very short lived, it is a dog with independent thought processes which allows it to be a successful hunter unaided by man, but it's independent thinking also makes it a breed that does not do well in training and being made to follow commands..therefore has poor trainability, it is also an extremely sensitive breed, harsh handling would make it shy and spooky rather than fawning for attention and trying harder to please, it's thin skin and low body fat makes it more prone to injury and more susceptible to temperature to extremes in temperature, therefore also not a good breed for rough and tumble play, it's eyesight is extremely keen allowing it to spot movement a mile away, but it is a breed that also gets lost easily as it have a poor sense of smell, so if it chases game into unfamiliar territory it will have a greater problem finding its way home. It's deep chest accomodates the largest heart and lungs of any other breeds and has blood work values that are completely different than other breeds, it extremely high red blood cell count and high blood oxygen makes it a favorite with vets as a blood donor, because they need so much recovery time between high activity they tend to sleep and lay around alot as adults 18 to 20 hours a day sleeping/lazing around is not unusual. for their size they eat far less than other dogs of similiar size, aggression is unusual but they are very competitive amongst themselves

The german shepherd is considered highly intelligent due to ease of training, it has a strong desire to please, if handled harshly it tends to put greater effort into trying to please rather than running off/ or becoming fearful like a greyhound would. It can function strongly in guarding and herding and has a body type and coat that allows it a function well outdoors in great weather extremes, it does not have the speed of a greyhound but has extreme endurance. Inorder to be successful in guarding and herding some aggression is necessary

The labrador unlike the greyhound and shepherd has longer webbing between it's toes allowing it to excel in swimming , as well has an oily coat and higher body fat which acts as a great insulator, it's energy stores are extreme even in harsh conditions, personality they tend to be very friendly and like to please but not quite as trainable as the shepherd generally ...it remains more puppy like longer allowing it to be a very rough and tumble dog and family pet, they tend to be low on the agressive scale but can be dogged in determination

Dog breeds have very distinct differences that allow them to excel in different areas and they also have distinct personality traits, intelligence(trainability) and energy levels.. it is when cross breeding occurs that some traits are lost or blended but their is a lack of consistency in the offspring even within the same litter

With human races there is not significant differences in areas such as intelligence, energy, personality and mechanical differences between the races.. the differences tend to be more cosmetic such as color of skin and texture of hair.

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Post #: 36

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 4:36:10 PM

Termyn8or

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Maya, OK the differences are less profound, but that does not mean they do not exist.

T

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Post #: 37

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 5:29:30 PM

beargonewild

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What I found interesting after reading through all the replies is my own concept is such that I don't delineate people by their race, but by their nationality. Whether one is Caucasian, African, Asian, etc, I see them being part of a nation, the only time I use "race" is in reference to the entire human population on this planet, thus I say human race.

When I read or hear another using "race" ethnic" nationality"; I conceptualize the manner of how they are used in the same way a biologist will classify a plant: genus, family, phylum etc. Using myself as an example in this manner is this -

race - human
nationality - Canadian
ethinicity - Irish/French/Ukranian
gender - male

thus an african violet is classified :
Kingdom - Plante
order - Lamiales
Family - Gesneriaceae
Genus - Saintpaulia

eta ; The way I see it, describing a person based upon their race or ethnicity is another way to classify a person according to country they were born in, their genetic heritage, their ethnic background which is akin to a biologist classifies a biological life form.

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 2/1/2009 5:33:23 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 5:56:04 PM

Termyn8or

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Interesting bear, is it all really just in a word ?

Myself

race : human
nationality : US American
ethnicity : Polish (pat. pat.) German (mat.pat.) Czeckoslovakian (Slovak, mat. mat and slovak_ ? mat. pat.)

Yes little is known about my maternal Grandfather, because the family did not want to know. Grandma got his name as did my Mother but she had to put him out because he was abusive. So therefore little is known about him.

Is it all in a word really ? If I were to use the word ethnicity would all this conflict simply evaporate ? At this point I would comply, as it would enable discussions thusfar that seem to turn into wars.

But at this point I would mention that if a word scares people, it should be their problem to sort it out. However in the interest of greater understanding and communication, hell if that's all I gotta do, no problem.

Ethnicity, hmm, I guess I'll have to practice typoing that :-) THX bear.

Actually quite interesting, considering I am one who reminds people that US citizens are not the only Americans. Like Bush did what was best for "America", hell that includes Mexico, Canada, Argentina, Bolivia, plenty of countries. Maybe sometimes it is all in just a word.

T

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 39

RE: Race - 2/1/2009 5:58:03 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I read somewhere that most people are just comfortable being around people like themselves.
That makes sense.
They said that you really see it in the way people worship.
"Black" churches, "White" churches etc.
I always wanted to go to a "Black" church just to hear the music.

The women. the problem with white churches is that the pews are filled with flat asses.

Gosh... a "flat ass bigot"!! Why do you hate people with flat asses. Would you hire a woman with a flat ass? Are you "flatassphobic".... shame....SHAME!!

By the way, I think people do feel comfortable with their own kind...with family, friends and acquaintences...but that is also subject to where you live. I was raised in NYC which is made up of thousands of ghetto's...Italian, Jewish, Irish, Latino, Black, Yellow...and colors I never knew exited. Heck..until I went to High School I thought everyone was an Italian catholic! Other people who live in Utah, for example, probably believe everyone is shiny white, a Mormon, and people of color are "interesting"...and maybe meet one someday.

What race really is...in my opinion... is THE trump card for politicians who divide and conquer by categorizing people and pandering to one group pitting one against the other. . Race probably takes second place to "class" in a polticians arsenal of weapons tp win elections, followed only by gender, religion, and sexual orientation.

Cory, that's funny, until I got to junior high school I thought most people were Irish Catholic, hard drinking, cops, firefighters and truckdrivers.

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Post #: 40

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