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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:12:08 AM

Sundowner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
....
I also wonder how many people know what socialism is? ...
It would be nice if this thread was kept understandable

Dodgy ground coloured. To use one word to describe a wide variety of complex political ideas and ideals and then to seek a definition of that word?

I don't know what socialism is but I've always been slightly nervous of what I think it might be (or may have become at times). I'm strongly in favour of a community looking after its own, especially the "weaker" members of society. (Is this socialism, communism, left-wing?). But I'm also strongly against the concept that society owes you a comfortable life or that you should not stand on your own feet. (Is this conservatism, right-wing?).

To be topical - in the UK at present workers are striking in protest at jobs, which are scarce and becoming scarcer, being given to foreign workers (I simplify somewhat). Whilst I can sympathise - and wish to help - those who are in an unfortunate situation I deeply despise a mentality which says "fuck you (the employer) I'm not working for you today because I'm pissed off" and which thinks "fuck you - you owe me a job; I'll make life difficult for you until you give me one". And rightly or wrongly I see socialism as an influence in creating that stupidity.

But it's certainly not as easy as therefore rejecting socialism in favour of something else! What else? Right-wing politics seems to me to be too heavily swayed against the underdog. Don't get me wrong - you more than most know that I'm all in favour of an easy life for capitalists! (I exaggerate somewhat of course

). But my "natural" right-wing tendencies are confused by the frequent failings of right-wing politics and politicians.

You know (and I'm not sure if anyone else has spotted this) it may be that none of the different political philosophies is perfect and that all have their pros and cons. This could be why there is so much argument, debate and disagreement?

You ask how many people know what socialism is. Well I for one don't know; I'd be interested in your own potted definition though. (And I ask that because you have an interesting mind which often produces well made, considered, posts).

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Post #: 21

RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:23:55 AM

colouredin

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You make some interesting points Mr SD. I agree that it depends who you ask as to what it means.

I have noticed something not surprising but worth note on these boards. It seems that for many if you are a fan of Obama you cant like Bush and vice versa, there is no middle ground.

Also those with companies tend to be more right wing. Thats not a shocker at all really. People want whats best for them.

Socialism to me is more of a middle ground, its the transitional stage after all out capitalism and on the road to communism. Its isnt one or the other. The thing is with middle ground it may well just leave everyone a little bit disatisfied.

I agree with the strike nature in Britian not being the best however (sorry SD) but I do think that so many large corperations take massive advantage of the worker. You know how much I used to earn a month and I worked my bloody ass off for it. No appriciation for what I did and I refuse to believe that I didnt work as hard as other people in the same company on a higher wage. Hell for many of them we did the same job.

We are living in a strange world, where the rich and famous get free gifts for being rich and famous while the poor sleep in doorways along the highstreet. That doesnt half wind me up.

Im not asking for everyone to be paid the same amount I just think less of a gap would be something wonderful.

Another irony corporations commiting crime, poor working conditions, dodgy deals etc happens all the time, but you know who the biggest blight on our economy is according to the news? Thats right my friend benifit cheats. How lazy they are, true they arent risking the safty of the people working for them and they are not stealing millions but were it not for them we would have a perfect world.

I dont think that there is a perfect I dont think there ever will be someone will always be unhappy with the world. And in honesty no one is right, people believe what is right for them.

< Message edited by colouredin -- 2/3/2009 2:25:02 AM >

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:28:33 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Which wars are being discussed goes in cycles around here. Stick around long enough and you get a special patch that says,
"I survived the great CM _____War debate of 20__and Beer Party!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness
some words and things did excist before WW2. (this month seem CM's WW2/Nazi month

lol I know..i come here already a few years..just different profiles :Pso...where is my patch..I love them

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Post #: 23

RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:36:36 AM

Raechard

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There are extremes in both capitalism and socialism. One of the mistakes I think we made growing up in the eighties/nineties was thinking capitalism was always good and socialism evil, based on the positive or negative liberty approaches of governments at the time. I think people are more willing to accept no one has the perfect model of society now.

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Post #: 24

RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:42:50 AM

Sundowner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
...

We are living in a strange world, where the rich and famous get free gifts for being rich and famous while the poor sleep in doorways along the highstreet. That doesnt half wind me up.

...

No strangeness in that.

What winds me up is a different angle - the majestic equality of the law which allows everyone equally the right to dine at the Ritz and restricts everyone equally from sleeping under bridges or stealing bread.

----

And yes, some employers exploit their workers - most don't. Bear in mind most workers don't exploit their employer but many do. Try being a non-exploiting employer who finds a worker exploiting him; it can make one as angry at exploitation as you are.

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Post #: 25

RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:43:53 AM

colouredin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
I think people are more willing to accept no one has the perfect model of society now.

I think you are right, or at least I think people are more likely to question the structure of society and not just accept that 'this is the way it is'

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:46:52 AM

colouredin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sundowner

And yes, some employers exploit their workers - most don't. Bear in mind most workers don't exploit their employer but many do. Try being a non-exploiting employer who finds a worker exploiting him; it can make one as angry at exploitation as you are.

Of course you are right Sir. And when its the individual feeling it then they will be pissed off. I think that it often comes down to scale though.

I also guess it depends what you think exploitation is.

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:53:51 AM

SilverMark

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We are avowed Capitalists....born and raised with the idea that "sharing the wealth" is for the weaker people. We can do whatever we set our mind to and are taught so throughout our lives! I was taught I can exceed my parents success(unlikely in all truth) and that our children can do better than we can. That as Americans, nothing is out of the realm of possibility!Work hard and get what you want not work hard and give it away to others it is American to share but as part of our free will not due to governmental regulations. I was born in the late 50's and raised in the 60's Capitalism is right and the rest of the world is wrong.... I am a believer that whatever is right for a country is what they should do but for us there is only one way....The American Way!... I know it sounds hokey as hell but...that's us a country, and I believe it, but I also believe that we are our brothers keeper and as a Capitalist it is my job to share with those less fortunate but as I decide to do so not because anyone forced me to do so. Our system does borrow some socialistic ways and that is alright, we do redistribute our wealth through some parts of our government which has become more Democratic-Socialist than before and we have grown accustomed to it as a whole although many think even that is wrong....but, hey it's America one can think whatever they choose....off to the gym then off to pursue the almighty dollar....but then again....I am an American....I actually believe this stuff!...always will!

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Post #: 28

RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:56:21 AM

Sundowner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
I also guess it depends what you think exploitation is.

True. But generally workers now have freedoms which employers don't; employment law has given workers "rights" without requiring responsibilities.

So a worker can easily say "I don't like this job, I'll leave and find another". But employers cannot say "I don't like this worker, I'll fire him/her and find another".

Imagine I were to say to you "I'll pay you to look at my website and report to me how to improve it". (I happen to know you're rather good at that).

If you are desperate for work and I say "I'll only pay you $1 an hour" am I exploiting you? You have perfect freedom to tell me to stick my job where the sun don't shine.

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 2:59:54 AM

colouredin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sundowner

So a worker can easily say "I don't like this job, I'll leave and find another". But employers cannot say "I don't like this worker, I'll fire him/her and find another".

Umm bit simplistic isnt it SD. If the worker decides that how easy do you think it is then to get another job? 'Yeah I left because I didnt like it much' ..... 'wow you sound reliable you are hired' There has to be a reason to quit really, just as there has to be a reason to sack someone :P

And yes the system works on supply and demand. BUT If i looked at your website for £1 and I made you £500 then yeah id say its exploitaion. The thing is that corperations can force down the salery to force up the profit, and you are right someone will take the job out of desperation.

< Message edited by colouredin -- 2/3/2009 3:01:34 AM >

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:05:07 AM

travelgman

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Words. And how they are used. To go back to your original question. Socialism has become the boogie man word in America. Every time anyone talks about doing anything for the common man or the working force in this country. The people who would stand to loose some of the money that would have to pay for this start screaming socialism at the top of their lungs and going on about free markets and democracy. Many folks are scared Obama is going to pass laws that will cut into their bank account and force them to give some of what they got back to the working force.So you have people trying to tag the new president as a socillist before he can even try to get any bill of this nature passed.

Oh and asking most people to have a clear idea of these terms is kinda a lost cause. Considering most people in the states would more than likely say they live in a Democracy. Which isnt actually correct regardless of what some polticians like to chatter on about. The ________ of the United States of America. Anyone care to fill in the blank?

This lack of understanding of political terminology has been used by politicians on both sides of the aisle to convince the general public that their side is doing what is best for them..

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:11:19 AM

ALAstella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

We are avowed Capitalists....born and raised with the idea that "sharing the wealth" is for the weaker people. We can do whatever we set our mind to and are taught so throughout our lives! I was taught I can exceed my parents success(unlikely in all truth) and that our children can do better than we can. That as Americans, nothing is out of the realm of possibility!Work hard and get what you want not work hard and give it away to others it is American to share but as part of our free will not due to governmental regulations. I was born in the late 50's and raised in the 60's Capitalism is right and the rest of the world is wrong.... I am a believer that whatever is right for a country is what they should do but for us there is only one way....The American Way!... I know it sounds hokey as hell but...that's us a country, and I believe it, but I also believe that we are our brothers keeper and as a Capitalist it is my job to share with those less fortunate but as I decide to do so not because anyone forced me to do so. Our system does borrow some socialistic ways and that is alright, we do redistribute our wealth through some parts of our government which has become more Democratic-Socialist than before and we have grown accustomed to it as a whole although many think even that is wrong....but, hey it's America one can think whatever they choose....off to the gym then off to pursue the almighty dollar....but then again....I am an American....I actually believe this stuff!...always will!

This I can understand and accept. How America pulled together after Katrina bears testimony to that.

However the basic principle of socialism is a strong work ethic (hence May 1st and the Labour Day parades) and the worker owning the means of their own production. This is the fundamental basis for socialism.

It's worth pointing out that people also pulled together in Poland during martial law, sharing what they had in spite of the state.

If the concept of socialism really is so anti-work and getting something for nothing, then why are the employment markets of Western Europe flooded with migrant workers from Eastern Europe (i.e. countries and societies which embraced socialism)? Surely wouldn't they prefer to stay at home living off the state?

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:19:32 AM

Raechard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sundowner
So a worker can easily say "I don't like this job, I'll leave and find another". But employers cannot say "I don't like this worker, I'll fire him/her and find another".

Most employers that want to get rid of low paid employees can do so quite easily, especially if you don't have a union to give you legal support. It's one thing to know you are right in terms of the law it's quite another to be able to fight the wrong if you don't have the financial resources. In most cases it is easier for the person to try and get another job than to bother fighting it, employers often count on this fact some will never fight injustice. Occasionally someone in middle management being dismissed unfairly will make the headlines and you'll read about it but how many cases involving unfair dismissal of low paid workers have you read about? You only read about those when they are backed by a union.

There are also other things to consider:

If your job is a wall scrubber and your manager does an inspection and says: 'that wall cleanliness isn't to my satisfaction I'm going to dock your pay' is he doing it because:

A) You did a poor job on the wall
B) His profit is the difference between what he charges his client and what he pays you?

This would not go to tribunal and if it did what is the worker going to offer up as evidence, a picture of a clean wall? It's his word against that of the manager. If however this isn't the first time and the man is represented by a union, the union leader may be wise to it.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 2/3/2009 3:39:52 AM >

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:29:23 AM

Sundowner

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I'd agree fully Raechard where the employer is ruthless and unprincipled but many are not like that. They are honest, well-meaning, law-abiding and concerned for the welfare of their staff (and I bet there are loads of them here in CM). For them the balance is unfair.

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:38:11 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Socialism to me is more of a middle ground, its the transitional stage after all out capitalism and on the road to communism. Its isnt one or the other. The thing is with middle ground it may well just leave everyone a little bit disatisfied.

Really, that's what it is to you? Because it sounds like a nicely paraphrased plagiarization of a portion of Marx's Communist Manifesto.

I find it a little condescending to start a thread on the premise that we Americans don't really know what socialism is. Socialism is state or collective ownership, control, and delegation of the means of production and distribution. The problem with it is that government is no more benevolent than a corporation. In fact government has the means to crush opposition that private businessmen don't have.

Socialism did not spring forth from the minds of actual workers. Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, and so on were not members of the working class. Marx never worked a day in his life, and his family would have starved to death had he not been taken in by wealthy friends. Socialism comes straight from the Bourgeoisie; the very people that socialist intellectuals claim to despise. Socialism is a scam; a fanciful, idealistic pyramid scheme that isn't rooted in the realities of human nature.

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Post #: 35

RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:45:39 AM

colouredin

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Sorry I dont mean to claim that Americans dont know what it is, I just see it used as an insult by many when it doesnt fit the context (oh and its not just Americans who do it either) I was just trying to work out what it means to other people.

And no it wasnt snipped from the communist manifesto, it instead is what it has come to mean to me through my studies (which yes has included Marxist works).

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:55:46 AM

Raechard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I find it a little condescending to start a thread on the premise that we Americans don't really know what socialism is. Socialism is state or collective ownership, control, and delegation of the means of production and distribution. The problem with it is that government is no more benevolent than a corporation. In fact government has the means to crush opposition that private businessmen don't have.

Some things there is no profit to be had in they just grease the wheels of the economy, such as public transport systems, healthcare, the military. In reality America isn't a pure capitalist state anymore than the China is 100% communist. To think that sliding the scale further one way or the other is going to turn a whole society evil is old thinking. China isn't evil because it's a communist state it's evil because of its human rights record and the two things don't go hand in hand, one does not lead to the other. The Chinese government sees people as expendable because it sees so many of them i.e. one will replace another. That mentality has nothing to do with socialism, quite the opposite.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 2/3/2009 3:56:43 AM >

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 4:15:07 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

China isn't evil because it's a communist state it's evil because of its human rights record

somehow those 2 go often hand in hand..when I look at old east-europe.

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Post #: 38

RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 4:17:20 AM

Raechard

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The west is just as evil but we don't have the stomach to read that in the papers.

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Post #: 39

RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 4:31:22 AM

JustDarkness

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perhaps..but still many of the communist would like to swap with us..and not the other way around.The old east..communist..where all not really keeping respect to human rights. Don't think you can compare that situation with the west (not saying the west is perfect)Might be that the name communisme was a mask to hide behind , I don't know.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 2/3/2009 4:32:19 AM >

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