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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 1:20:47 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
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No no nooooo...please. Don't judge Americans by the neo-con right wingers, I beg you. Some of us actually "get" it. I swear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BbwCanaDomme

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I guess it might be a little like tossing the word Nazi around lightly.



What in the fuck?

What is it that Americans think socialists do exactly? Canada's a socialist country, and our economy is in the best shape of any of the G7 countries, our standard of living is higher, etc, why are you guys so terrified?

Socialism does not equal communism and comparing socialists to nazis is just fucking retarded.

edit- sorry, anger induced typos. Also, I'm not saying America needs to be a socialist country, whatever works for you guys, but seriously, there are worst things than being a socialist.


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to BbwCanaDomme)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 1:41:49 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch

Ummm....Nazi means "National Socialist". But I guess they neglected to teach you that in whatever public school you went too. They probably taught you Nazism was a product of the right and I have to guess you haven't gotten past that piece of propaganda yet either.



Let's see:

The Munich Putsch of 1923 was a putsch headed by the Frei Korps (right-wing paramilitaries not long out of WW1), supported by Ludendorff, Hindenburg and associates (conservative, monarchist elites); and the aim was to overthrow the social democrats and reinstate an authoritarian, right wing form of government. Now, at the heart of the Putsch were the Nazis and Hitler.

Hitler was an adherent of both Nietzsche (ultra conservative) and Darwin (whom Hitler believed to be a conservative), and he held Wagner in high esteem (right wing anti-semite).

Martin Heidegger was the philosopohical spokesman for the Nazi Party. Not only was Heidegger one of the most radical philosophers of all time, he was also a conservative German farmer who spent his time living in isolation (in as far as possible) and he believed that urban life and Liberalism could only possibly lead to the individual being brainwashed.

Do you understand why Hitler managed to gain power? One factor is of the utmost importance: the traditional German elites believed Hitler could help them crush Communists, Socialists and supporters of democracy - so they gave him office, thinking they could control him.

I suggest you reconsider who exactly has been duped.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 1:46:40 PM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Hence my support for the mixed economy. Which includes chunks of capitalism, bits of socialism, even the occasional whiff of fascism and communism. i'm sure there's an 'ism' or two i've missed. Society is a moving target.
There isn't a country I know of which isn't a mixed economy.  Not too keen on this "one drop rule" on socialism, either!  I think where some confusion lies though, is that some policies are claimed by both sides.  Take the current debate on protectionism.  Many rightwingers in the US insist on it and it played a major part in building America's economy  in the 19th cent., yet it could also easliy be classed as an inherently socialist concept.  The same people will insist that the free market is the supreme arbiter of the value of goods and mechanism for their delivery.  They'll insist developing nations open their markets while simultaneously demanding that their own are strictly controlled.  I find it more useful to think in terms of vested interests - but thats the anarchist in me!

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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 1:48:36 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Hence my support for the mixed economy. Which includes chunks of capitalism, bits of socialism, even the occasional whiff of fascism and communism. i'm sure there's an 'ism' or two i've missed. Society is a moving target.
There isn't a country I know of which isn't a mixed economy.  Not too keen on this "one drop rule" on socialism, either!  I think where some confusion lies though, is that some policies are claimed by both sides.  Take the current debate on protectionism.  Many rightwingers in the US insist on it and it played a major part in building America's economy  in the 19th cent., yet it could also easliy be classed as an inherently socialist concept.  The same people will insist that the free market is the supreme arbiter of the value of goods and mechanism for their delivery.  They'll insist developing nations open their markets while simultaneously demanding that their own are strictly controlled.  I find it more useful to think in terms of vested interests - but thats the anarchist in me!


...knew i'd missed an 'ism'...anarcho-syndicalism......

(in reply to RealityLicks)
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RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 1:51:45 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Take the current debate on protectionism.  Many rightwingers in the US insist on it and it played a major part in building America's economy  in the 19th cent., yet it could also easliy be classed as an inherently socialist concept.  



Absolutely. It is paradoxical to advocate protectionism, while denouncing Socialism.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/3/2009 1:52:29 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 1:56:15 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Now I have been a contributing memeber of this forum for a fair old while now. I enjoy reading your sometimes incomprehensibile arguments about politics but something is really confusing to me. So often I see the s word (socialism) spat out of peoples mouths in regards to Obama. Is this a residue of the fear of reds under the bed?



It's noticeable that many people on this board steer clear from the politics threads. Who can blame them when taking into account some of the rubbish posted on these boards - such as the utter inability to distinguish between Socialism and Liberalism.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:02:03 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Ostalgie is an interest of mine, and I am often fascinated by the difference between what Amis have been told to think about the former DDR (and, by extension, the East) and the reality.

Here's an article which, while biased, describes the general concept of Ostalgie. The comment made by a reader is penetrating.
http://lastexitmag.com/archive/ostalgia

Another look at Ostalgie
http://mondediplo.com/2004/08/04ostalgia

I'm not defending "Communism". I am saying that there is something to be said for living in such a way as to never have to fear being unemployed, or without medical care, or going hungry.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to JustDarkness)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 3:54:30 PM   
BbwCanaDomme


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quote:



Most people I know don't want to live in a socialist country. If you do and are happy that is great. Why do you care if the people in the US don't want to?  There are worse things than missing a leg, does that mean I should cut one off?


Again, if Americans don't want to live in a socialist country, that's fine, it's your call. But stop using socialism as the go to insult anytime Obama doesn't do something you like. And try to figure out the differences between communism, fascism and socialism before you flip your shit over something that really isn't a huge deal.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 4:53:09 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		An Excerpt about Socialism:

"Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, creates an unequal society and does not provide equal opportunities for everyone in society to attain such status. Therefore socialists advocate the creation of a society in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly based on merit or the amount of work expended, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1] "

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

An excerpt from Capitalism:
"
Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned and controlled rather than publicly or state-owned and controlled.[1] In capitalism, the land, labor, and capital are owned, operated and traded by private individuals or corporations,[2][3] and where investments, distribution, income, production, pricing and supply of goods, commodities and services are primarily determined by private decision in a market economy largely free of government intervention.[4][5] A distinguishing feature of capitalism is that each person owns his or her own labor and therefore is allowed to sell the use of it to employers.[2][6] In capitalism, private rights and property relations are protected by the rule of law of a limited regulatory framework.[7][8] In the modern capitalist state, legislative action is confined to defining and enforcing the basic rules of the market,[7][8] though the state may provide some public goods and infrastructure.[9] "

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Our country was founded by land owners and investors. Some of which has their wealth taken from them previously, by the state.

Personally I feel there needs to be some balance between the approaches.
 

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 2/3/2009 4:54:34 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 5:12:53 PM   
SunTzu1


Posts: 1
Joined: 4/1/2007
Status: offline 		I have enjoyed this thread.  The comments ran from the sublime to the ridiculous.  I was treated to both great insight and ignorance.

Nevertheless, there is a deeper question which led to the discussion in the first place....

Why are Right Wingers and conservative such WHINERS?

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 5:55:22 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunTzu1

I have enjoyed this thread.  The comments ran from the sublime to the ridiculous.  I was treated to both great insight and ignorance.

Nevertheless, there is a deeper question which led to the discussion in the first place....

Why are Right Wingers and conservative such WHINERS?

Because not only did they lose the last two elections, the Senate, and the House...they also backed the biggest loser ever to be President?



(in reply to SunTzu1)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 6:00:03 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunTzu1

I have enjoyed this thread.  The comments ran from the sublime to the ridiculous.  I was treated to both great insight and ignorance.

Nevertheless, there is a deeper question which led to the discussion in the first place....

Why are Right Wingers and conservative such WHINERS?


Right-wingers...in this context Republicans are currently whiners because they have little power at this time...When the Democrats were the minority party they were the whiners.

It’s always been that way…not just in America either…and will always continue to be that way.

Butch

(in reply to SunTzu1)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 8:02:10 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Fast Reply -
 
I am impressed that over-all this thread went pretty smoothly.  Quite a few posters on  made very good points and had their own perspectives to share that added to the discussion. 



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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 9:34:04 PM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		There are pros and cons to any system

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705
Canadian Health Care In CrisisFree And First-Class — If You Can WaitTORONTO, March 20, 2005 | by Chris Hawke(AP) A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: "If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies."

The patient wasn't dead, according to the doctor who showed the letter to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. But there are many Canadians who claim the long wait for the test and the frigid formality of the letter are indicative of a health system badly in need of emergency care.

Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament.

"It's like somebody's telling you that you can buy this car, and you've paid for the car, but you can't have it right now," said Jane Pelton. Rather than leave daughter Emily in pain and a knee brace, the Ottawa family opted to pay $3,300 for arthroscopic surgery at a private clinic in Vancouver, with no help from the government.

"Every day we're paying for health care, yet when we go to access it, it's just not there," said Pelton.







http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=
Canada's U.S. baby boom LISA PRIEST From Monday's Globe and Mail More than 100 Canadian women with high-risk pregnancies have been sent to United States hospitals over the past year – in what a doctors' group attributes to the lack of a national birthing plan. The problem has peaked, with British Columbia and Ontario each sending a record number of women to U.S. neonatal intensive care units (NICUs). Specifically, 80 B.C. women have been sent to U.S.


http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
David Gratzer Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation. Small wonder Canadians are looking to the market. Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada. When Aucoin appealed to an official ombudsman, the Ontario government claimed that her treatment was unproven and that she had gone to an unaccredited clinic. But the FDA in the U.S. had approved Erbitux, and her clinic was a cancer center affiliated with a prominent Catholic hospital in Buffalo. This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country,







quote:

ORIGINAL: BbwCanaDomme

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I guess it might be a little like tossing the word Nazi around lightly.



What in the fuck?

What is it that Americans think socialists do exactly? Canada's a socialist country, and our economy is in the best shape of any of the G7 countries, our standard of living is higher, etc, why are you guys so terrified?

Socialism does not equal communism and comparing socialists to nazis is just fucking retarded.

edit- sorry, anger induced typos. Also, I'm not saying America needs to be a socialist country, whatever works for you guys, but seriously, there are worst things than being a socialist.

(in reply to BbwCanaDomme)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 9:51:53 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		I am absolutely thrilled for you, mistershke69, that you have such fine health that you have no need to encounter the "system". Me, I'm nearly 20 years older than you. I've already encountered the severe limitations that regular people, like me, with everyday health insurance from Blue Cross, encounter.

I'll take the Canadian or French or German systems any day. At least I probably won't die because of... well, even if I linked to Iatrogenic disease and death, I doubt you'd believe it.

have a great, healthy life. And keep linking to those one-off problems, and extrapolating them to condemn the whole system.  That's what you guys do, right? "Joe Blow fell through the cracks"; therefore, throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Seriously, I hope you enjoy good health. But if you don't, I hope you have a nightmarish time in the healthcare system you love so dearly. Because that is what you want to consign me to.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 10:28:44 PM   
BbwCanaDomme


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

There are pros and cons to any system




Where did I say the Canadian healthcare system is perfect? Or that socialism is always the way to go? Of course the system isn't perfect, no system is, the point I was trying to get across is that socialism isn't the terrifying, rights removing entity that so many Americans seem to think it is, and the comparrison to nazis is disgusting and grossly inaccurate.

That being said, I would rather that everyone have access to an imperfect heathcare system, than for only people with money to be able to get medical care.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 10:37:55 PM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		Everyone actually has free access to an imperfect heathcare system in the US.  All they have to do is showup at a Hospital and pretend to be an illegal Mexican.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm

•In Texas, where the state comptroller estimates illegal immigrants cost hospitals $1.3 billion in 2006, the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston is considering denying cancer care to such immigrants.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BbwCanaDomme

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

There are pros and cons to any system




Where did I say the Canadian healthcare system is perfect? Or that socialism is always the way to go? Of course the system isn't perfect, no system is, the point I was trying to get across is that socialism isn't the terrifying, rights removing entity that so many Americans seem to think it is, and the comparrison to nazis is disgusting and grossly inaccurate.

That being said, I would rather that everyone have access to an imperfect heathcare system, than for only people with money to be able to get medical care.

(in reply to BbwCanaDomme)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: The S word - 2/3/2009 11:36:56 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Now I have been a contributing memeber of this forum for a fair old while now. I enjoy reading your sometimes incomprehensibile arguments about politics but something is really confusing to me. So often I see the s word (socialism) spat out of peoples mouths in regards to Obama. Is this a residue of the fear of reds under the bed? I also wonder how many people know what socialism is? I think saying Obama is a socialist is pushing it to be honest but also why would it be so bad if he were? These are genuine questions, maybe socialism means something differant over there. It would be nice if this thread was kept understandable so not too many cultural references



      In reply just to the OP, "socialism" is often used as a generic word for social philosophies where government is the solution to the problems, rather than a root cause and impediment to resolving them.  That does seem to apply to the belief system of our new President.

      We shall see.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The S word - 2/4/2009 1:57:44 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
I'm not defending "Communism". I am saying that there is something to be said for living in such a way as to never have to fear being unemployed, or without medical care, or going hungry.
 I go for work regular to Romania.Some prefer to give back their freedom if they can get back their work so they have a house and food....meaning they would accept communisme above having no house/food.Freedom is nothing..without food/money.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The S word - 2/4/2009 5:55:21 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		Personally i have never come across any Americans who would even attempt to suggest that the Nazis were left wing as opposed to right wing.

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Profile   Post #: 100
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