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RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 4:23:31 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


quote:

ORIGINAL: giovani324

I was wondering if there are any Mistress's that like subs with a little will power left to crush and control.  What is the enjoyment of controlling someone who is already pathetic?


What exactly makes you think that submissives and even slaves do not have willpower?

It takes a very motivated, self-aware, and self-controlled individual to become a worthy consensual slave.


People tend to look at the two sides of this as absolutes, when in reality it's a continuum. There are all shades of gray here, not just black and white. The rote response that a sub/slave must be "strong", etc., may be true for some, but not for all. And ready compliance doesn't necessarily make one "pathetic", but that term does seem to fit some subs.

Even though the wording of the OP is pretty inflammatory, the underlying question is legitimate, and has been debated before. It has to do with a dominant accepting submission from someone who's offering it with little or no resistance of any sort, versus a dominant taking on more of a challenge to overcome more resistance in a sub. To some, the fun is all about the struggle, but others are turned on by a more willing submission.


Given we are talking about consensual relationships I don't see how resistance beyond the fun level of play or wanting to be helped to get to different degrees of control or authority is part of BDSM.

Without that consent, we are not doing BDSM at all we are simply doing what human beings have done for thousands of years: manipulating or forcing others to comply with our withes.

I stick by my statements. Even the most submissive person you may see has a ton of motivation, self-awareness, and self-control to be able to successfully be someone's sub or slave.

If the goal is merely for time-limited pleasure, I'm sure all sorts of personalities can play but for successful and long-term dynamics both people must be strong. Especially if they live in a society where their choice to do BDSM is considered unusual, sick, or even a crime.

I still want the OP to answer my question and explain why he chose the words he did. There must be a reason and perhaps by looking at that reason he will get answers to some of the questions he has and his own motivations and attraction to BDSM.


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(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 5:24:19 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		I'm sure all sorts of personalities can play but for successful and long-term dynamics both people must be strong.
 
Notwithstanding Hardbodysub's comments regarding different sorts of sub - I'll second that for my type of sub, Tammy.  The strength of control I feel I need varies in proportion to the degree to which I'm going to want to submit.  I feel as though I could go a very long way with the right person - which is exactly why I have to have control not just of myself but of my relations with my domina, too.  For myself, I wouldn't say strength of will is desirable in a sub - it's downright crucial.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 6:45:14 PM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

Lol! I suggested you were “foolhardy” as you made a generalisation (which you admit you have formed by reading these forums), and which may well of encompassed my relationship (I assumed you were referring to the posters in this particular thread with your statement of “when you look at the comments and attitudes of the dominants here”).


I did no such thing. I stated a fact about a lot of posts, over a long period of time. I did not make a generalization, which would have entailed a statement such as "dommes in general ...", or "most dommes ...". By "here", I meant on CM. You inferred something from my post which was not stated; you assumed too much. And as everyone knows, when you ass/u/me, you make an ass of u and me.

quote:

You don't know me, thus I consider it 'foolhardy' to make defining statements which concern things you have no understanding of.


Correct, I don't know you. And you don't know me. But I didn't say anything about you, nor about anything that I have no understanding of. You, on the other hand, seem to have done that very thing.

quote:

As you say, you are basing your opinion on what it “looks like” without showing any empathetic understanding of what you are saying. You may well do, but your remark suggested otherwise to me.


Nope. I did not base an opinion on what it "looks like". I only stated that it "looks like". I didn't say that everything IS what it looks like.

Finally, a word about generalization, even though that's not what I did. Generalization is perfectly rational when done correctly. It's what's done when, after seeing apple after apple fall to the ground when they come off the tree, allow us to anticipate that the next apple will do the same. OVERgeneralization, on the other hand, is common, and leads to invalid conclusions, such as "Every Irish guy I ever met was a drunk, so they must all be drunks". I didn't do either.


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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 6:50:57 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Resistant... hummm... I guess it comes in many forms.  Resistant to certain things would be a problem...

Like... he is willing when his cock is needy, but resistant to things when it is not.  Like when he is afraid.. he struggles with what he wants... one moment he wants to be kinky and dominanted and the next he is running from dominance and a relationship until the cock is needy again.  Like when he is angry becasue of things he has experienced and is surely not going to allow anyone to get close to doing what another did and see's her doing so at every turn or phrase.  Like when he is wishy washy and unsure and playing games to convince you he is all there, when in fact he is only there for the moment and then when you know his game... he is off to find someone else to convince he is a nice submissive guy... but truely hasn't any idea what it takes to carry on a d/s relationship or doesn't really want to put anything into it except his own meeting of personal needs. 

I know, run on sentences... but... it is very similar to the resistant one's I have known.

Then there is the resistance of one who does know what he wants and isn't struggling with himself.  Isn't angry or wounded to the point of acting out and is more sincere and playful in his resistance.  Any struggle with a kink or whatever isn't coming from a dark place... but one of unsure maybe or he feeds off the challenges as the dominant does as well.

When I speak of resistance... I think the first examples as they seem to out number the second.


Boy, your definition of resistant isn't recognizable at all to me; it's not even in the same ballpark as mine.

(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 7:00:28 PM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

Given we are talking about consensual relationships I don't see how resistance beyond the fun level of play or wanting to be helped to get to different degrees of control or authority is part of BDSM.

Without that consent, we are not doing BDSM at all we are simply doing what human beings have done for thousands of years: manipulating or forcing others to comply with our withes.


The fact that it's consensual doesn't mean that there's no manipulation, or that there's no resistance. We're always manipulating to some degree or another, whether we realize it or not. How do you get to consent? Do you assume that the sub consents 100% to everything from the get-go? Or is it a moving target, consenting to some things, not to others, and potentially expanding to more things as you move along?

This idea that consensuality precludes any resistance or reluctance is simply ridiculous to me.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 7:04:48 PM   
Lockit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

Boy, your definition of resistant isn't recognizable at all to me; it's not even in the same ballpark as mine.


Well, what does resistant look like in your ballpark?

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 7:08:29 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I think that is why you are disagreeing with so many of our views, Hardbody, I think we are talking about different things.

What is "resistance"?   How do I see it?  A resistant submissive will argue over every request, express rancor, irritation, or a general lack of interest in serving.  He is not serving me, he is doing me a favour  by doing as I ask.  He will expect a tit-for-tat arrangement where for everything he does, I must do something in return, and the something is often play or sex related.  My relationships are non-Newtonian!  When I require something that he does not like, he will argue, fight, or outright refuse.  Since I will no be bullied, he will eventually give in, and I am treated to a festival of sulking, whining, or both.  When presented with this behaviour, he will offer a host of excuses---and at the core, of course, is that *I* am not suitably dominant.  And indeed I am not, since I am not the dominant for him!

Can you tell that I have been down this road?   It is not pleasant.  My companions can laugh at me, disagree with me, think that I am batshit crazy, and hate my taste in hats, but they have to know that I am the boss.  I willingly listen to their ideas, and if they have more skills than I do in some areas, I will absolutely let them lead, and learn as much as I can from them.  When it comes down to it though, I expect them to obey.   That's how D/s works in my world.  

As to "exchange", I do think that there is an exchange.  In exchange for the responsibilities and joys of having a submissive companion, I offer love, protection, leadership, safety, and kindness.  It's NOT all about the domina, and never has been for those of us who are interested in long term relationships. 

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RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 7:15:21 PM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

A resistant submissive will argue over every request, express rancor, irritation, or a general lack of interest in serving.  He is not serving me, he is doing me a favour  by doing as I ask.  He will expect a tit-for-tat arrangement where for everything he does, I must do something in return, and the something is often play or sex related. 


You're right, your definition of resistance in a sub isn't even close to mine. What you describe above sounds like a "do-me" bottom to me, and doesn't even fit under the umbrella of "submissive".

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 7:35:35 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		 . . . . I offer love, protection, leadership, safety, and kindness.
 
But Lady Hib - aren't you a sadist?  Sorry, but that phrase did jar a little!
 

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 7:40:15 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

 . . . . I offer love, protection, leadership, safety, and kindness.
 
But Lady Hib - aren't you a sadist?  Sorry, but that phrase did jar a little!
 


Are you trying to say that I'm mean?    I am only a sadist when I play, I am not an emotional sadist or a humiliatrix.

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RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 7:41:28 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

A resistant submissive will argue over every request, express rancor, irritation, or a general lack of interest in serving.  He is not serving me, he is doing me a favour  by doing as I ask.  He will expect a tit-for-tat arrangement where for everything he does, I must do something in return, and the something is often play or sex related. 


You're right, your definition of resistance in a sub isn't even close to mine. What you describe above sounds like a "do-me" bottom to me, and doesn't even fit under the umbrella of "submissive".


What do YOU consider resistant?

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RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 7:54:03 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Are you trying to say that I'm mean?    I am only a sadist when I play, I am not an emotional sadist or a humiliatrix.

OK - as you were.  I have other questions, but they're better treated in another thread.  Pray continue your discussion with HBS and others.  

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(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 8:20:35 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Well shoot, Peon, now I am curious!  So Cmail me already!

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 8:22:17 PM   
Steponme73


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline 		I think the idea that a submissive is pathetic is from what some of the Domiant women on this site and others post in their profiles.  So it might be a pretty common misconception....just my thougths.

(in reply to VampiresLair)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 9:20:02 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

Boy, your definition of resistant isn't recognizable at all to me; it's not even in the same ballpark as mine.


Well, what does resistant look like in your ballpark?


I already gave some idea of that:

Some like a little struggle. Struggle or resistance doesn't have to mean "all he wants to do is push his ideas on me and ignore mine". It usually means merely that the sub isn't totally subservient and acquiescent from the get-go, that there's a little resistance to some things, and that the dominant has to do something to "get to" the submissive. People who enjoy that process are bored by unresistant, willing submission."

and

"The fact that it's consensual doesn't mean that there's no manipulation, or that there's no resistance. We're always manipulating to some degree or another, whether we realize it or not. How do you get to consent? Do you assume that the sub consents 100% to everything from the get-go? Or is it a moving target, consenting to some things, not to others, and potentially expanding to more things as you move along?

This idea that consensuality precludes any resistance or reluctance is simply ridiculous to me."

To me, resistant means nothing more than a reluctance toward some things, or the need to feel at least some degree of enticement, seduction, or coercion from a domina to extract his compliance on certain things, or to expand the scope of his submission. A sub who has no resistance at all to anything, who is ready and willing to submit completely and utterly from day 1, that pretty much fits my definition of doormat.

Here's a blog that contains examples of exactly what I'm talking about:
Ramblings of a Slave



< Message edited by hardbodysub -- 2/4/2009 9:22:49 PM >

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/4/2009 11:22:59 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Lady Hibiscus, I'd like to come at this from a different angle. There are a *LOT* of male Doms and female submissives who have an approach I tend to see as "taming" the submissive. He pushes, she resists, he pushes back, and after a few exchanges, if all goes well, she melts. Many of them seem to truly enjoy that challenge. For me, if I am dominating a man, I don't enjoy that particular approach, and most of the Dommes I've run into, both in person and online, also feel that way. I can enjoy resistance play in a more literal, physical sense, but that pushback tends to inspire me to back off and seek someone else, rather than continuing to push. There are also many more Doms than Dommes who are seeking submissives who are only submissive in the dungeon/bedroom, rather than being service-oriented. Nothing wrong with either dynamic, but I *do* think it tends to make things a lot tougher for a lot of men who self-identify as submissive rather than bottom, but who don't fit the preferred dynamic. I don't necessarily want them, but I don't think that they are necessarily fakes or liars or anything like that, either.

I'm not sure if that is what hardbodysub is referring to, as I haven't had an opportunity to read the link he provided.

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/5/2009 1:59:12 AM   
HardToTame


Posts: 205
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline 		I thought some women would of thought that the chase is half the fun.  For me being chased is definately half the fun.  I like the challenge of trying to resist and then being shown why resistance is futile in that, this women I am supposedly resisting is, well, simply irresistable.  Thats what makes a women/domme/mistress for me. In my eyes, if I can resist her, then how can I HONESTLY serve her in ANY way other than in this favourous way that was previously mentioned by someone else?  I don't do favours for people in expectation for anything in return, and that is definately an extension of my attitude towards doing favours in my outside world, but, if I have the power to resist, then it IS just a favour because I DON'T have to do what they ask because I still have the power to resist.  And thus (Sorry I know I'm sounding repetative.) a women who is irresistable, is a women I will serve.  I won't bitch and moan about what she asks me to do, because it will be an honour to serve her because she has demonstrated to me why she is worth that servitude, she is worth it, because she is irresistable.  Because there is something in her that strikes a chord in me that I can not, under any circumstance resist. 

It's a bit like, 'show me yours and I'll show you mine' but with strength of character.  In my eyes, it most definately is all about the other person, but, I want to be something the other person can be proud to have tamed.  I want her to be proud that I find her irresistable.  Not proud of me, but proud of herself for getting me, and thus, in order for her to be proud of catching me, I have to be 'quite a catch' (so to speak).  At that point, the, 'irresistability' (Im not even sure if such a word exists) but it becomes mutual.  Thats why I like the chase, because I know the reward will be amazing, and so does she, and I'd of thought alot more dommes/mistresses would have thought the same way.  Infact, it makes me further think that even more of them are just, all about a dominant expression on their face, but underneath are more just desperate to serve a submissive. (Which I'm pretty sure I've said somewhere else.)

Theres a difference between a women who puts on a mean face on a webpage to get male attention and a women who knows how irresistable she is and knows exactly WHY she is irresistable and isn't ashamed of it and knows she can have ANY man she wants.  Not just some, pissy whingey sub, but ANY man.  A women who can make the sun melt.  A women who could tempt Eve not to eat the apple, but to, insert the snake.  A WOMEN, not a domme, not a mistress, but a WOMEN.  I'd wanna be all I can be for that women, and at the very least more.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/5/2009 6:12:21 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Hardbody,  I was speaking from a personal stance of what would be a problem for me in resistance and the things I mention would be resistance in my view.  I also said that resistance comes in many forms.  The examples of what would pose a problem for me is what I stated.  The things I have mentioned here... although not complete by any means, are things I have seen in submissive's I have known.  Not all submissive's but some.  I was giving examples, not a comple work on the topic.

I don't even wish to get into the bottom or submissive arguement of things as I don't really see someone claiming to be submissive or whatever as a factor... most of the time in the resistance I have spoken about we are not talking about anything but sex as a motivator.  Whether that be a bottom or sex addict or user... remains to be seen between the the people involved... but what ever it is... I personally see it as resistance to what some have presented to me as what they wanted but resisted when their motivator was... relieved for the moment. Or there were unhealed wounds that were an issue.  And those types of resistance would be a problem for me.  Seeing as though we are not in a relationship and you and I were giving opinions... it really doesn't matter does it? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Resistant... hummm... I guess it comes in many forms.  Resistant to certain things would be a problem...

Like... he is willing when his cock is needy, but resistant to things when it is not.  Like when he is afraid.. he struggles with what he wants... one moment he wants to be kinky and dominanted and the next he is running from dominance and a relationship until the cock is needy again.  Like when he is angry becasue of things he has experienced and is surely not going to allow anyone to get close to doing what another did and see's her doing so at every turn or phrase.  Like when he is wishy washy and unsure and playing games to convince you he is all there, when in fact he is only there for the moment and then when you know his game... he is off to find someone else to convince he is a nice submissive guy... but truely hasn't any idea what it takes to carry on a d/s relationship or doesn't really want to put anything into it except his own meeting of personal needs. 

I know, run on sentences... but... it is very similar to the resistant one's I have known.

Then there is the resistance of one who does know what he wants and isn't struggling with himself.  Isn't angry or wounded to the point of acting out and is more sincere and playful in his resistance.  Any struggle with a kink or whatever isn't coming from a dark place... but one of unsure maybe or he feeds off the challenges as the dominant does as well.

When I speak of resistance... I think the first examples as they seem to out number the second.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/5/2009 6:33:33 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

Given we are talking about consensual relationships I don't see how resistance beyond the fun level of play or wanting to be helped to get to different degrees of control or authority is part of BDSM.

Without that consent, we are not doing BDSM at all we are simply doing what human beings have done for thousands of years: manipulating or forcing others to comply with our withes.


The fact that it's consensual doesn't mean that there's no manipulation, or that there's no resistance. We're always manipulating to some degree or another, whether we realize it or not. How do you get to consent? Do you assume that the sub consents 100% to everything from the get-go? Or is it a moving target, consenting to some things, not to others, and potentially expanding to more things as you move along?

This idea that consensuality precludes any resistance or reluctance is simply ridiculous to me.



Really?

Sorry, I only deal with adults who consent to our relationship. Anything else in my opinion is immoral and a quite possibly a crime.

If you don't both consent you are not doing BDSM. PERIOD.

Is it easy? No, of course not, but just because it may be difficult to learn to obey or learn to command does not equal resistance.

Just because learning a language might be hard and difficult doesn't mean you are resisting learning that language.

Just because learning to live with someone is hard and difficult doesn't mean you are resisting living with that person.

And because I know folks will say "that has nothing to do with BDSM" here's a RL example for me.

Fox isn't a masochist. I am a sadist. He consented to be my slave knowing this. He suffers when we do SM but he has never resisted. He has asked me to go slow and to help him build up his ability to take pain and I've also tried to help him connect it to positives. SM isn't easy for him, it is difficult, but because he has consented to our dynamic he does not resist it, he learned to deal with and I help him. His need to serve me overcomes any turn-off from SM making SM something he wants to do for me but which is not easy for him.

Resistance, I think, comes when you are being forced or someone is attempting to force you to do something you don't honestly want to do.

Why be in a BDSM relationship if you really don't want to be? Why be in one with that particular person if you really don't want to be? The very idea makes no sense to my mind when we are discussing consensual relationships.


< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 2/5/2009 6:41:19 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/5/2009 12:03:14 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		Wow, I really have trouble understanding why resistance within a D/s relationship is such a hard thing for people to grasp.

Again, I ask, "How do you get to consent?" I sincerely doubt that both of you at the beginning had the exact same ideas about everything that the two of you would do, the same preferences for each possible activity, the same desires on everything. Wasn't there anything at all that you wanted from him that he wasn't too thrilled about, and was even the tiniest bit reluctant, and you had to coax him in some way, use your influence to encourage his acceptance of it?

You write as though there's nothing at all in between complete, utter submission, and the total refusal to submit. Resistance exists everywhere in between the two extremes, and dominance attempts to overcome that resistance. And it is overcome in many ways, not just through force. Consensuality and resistance are NOT mutually exclusive.

It seems to me that perhaps you're hung up on semantics, which seems evidenced by the following quote:
quote:

If you don't both consent you are not doing BDSM. PERIOD.


I think that really misses the mark, because I don't think the term BDSM is confined only to the responsible practice thereof any more than any other activity. The fact that it SHOULD be consensual doesn't mean that sadism/masochism ALWAYS IS consensual, nor is bondage & discipline ALWAYS practiced in this way. That's like saying if hunting isn't done legally, it's not hunting, or driving without a license isn't really driving, or having sex with an underage person isn't sex, because it's illegal and morally reprehensible.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 60
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